A problem I had was with Cap's motivation. Bucky. If he knew Bucky wasn't responsible because he was brainwashed...

A problem I had was with Cap's motivation. Bucky. If he knew Bucky wasn't responsible because he was brainwashed, that would be pretty easy to prove so the reason to get into a fight with the other Avengers over this seemed kind of weak. It's something that could have been explained in 5 minutes.

Another problem was Iron Man actually blaming Bucky for killing his parents. I understand that he would get emotional but to disregard the brainwashing when you're in the room full of people who got brainwashed seemed so contrived.

Remember this was Zemo's "plan" all along. And furthermore Zemo tries to kill himself afterwards which would suggest he'd either felt guilty about what he had done or he was never going to actually see if his plan worked.

Speaking of Zemo's plan. Why did he blow up the UN when the accords were already suggested? To put the blame on Winter Soldier? Since when was Winter Soldier an Avenger? And if the reason was because he knew that Cap would stick up for Bucky and cause a rift between the Avengers, it seems like the footage of Bucky strangling Iron Man's mothers would have sufficed.

There's so many problems in this movie I really don't understand all the praise it's been getting except for the airport fight scene which was pretty amazing.

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Avengers "Black Lives Matter" edition

Cap was trying to save Bucky's life. After the bombing of the UN, there was a shoot on sight order for him.

Iron Man got emotional. He found out who killed his parents, AND that Cap hid it from him.

Zemo's plan was to break up the Avengers. He succeeded. He was going to kill himself because his mission was over.

He blew up the UN to draw Bucky out of hiding and find out what happened in his 1991 mission. After he found out what happened, he discovered the location of the Siberia base, and the surveillance footage was already there. Zemo didn't know all this stuff beforehand.

I agree on all accounts. I'll add that Cap not only wanted to save Bucky's life because there was a shoot on sight order; he also wanted to prevent Bucky from killing someone, because he knew Bucky had no choice but to fight for his life, and left to his own he would need to kill in self-defense. With Cap helping him no soldier was killed and they would've gotten away if T'Challa didn't get in the middle.

Yeah, I'm not sure. Why wasn't Nick Fury in this movie either? Figured he'd have an opinion on something like this

I hope he's after something so important that all this little political problems pale in comparison. Maybe Fury already is on the shadows preparing the defense against Thanos?

If people talked things out instead of acting on emotion, 99% of movies would have no story.

>Why did he blow up the UN when the accords were already suggested? To put the blame on Winter Soldier?
Yes.

He knew this would make Steve violate the Accords to protect Bucky, becoming a fugitive in the process. This was the most important part of his plan.

Even if Cap would have proved that Bucky was innocent, they would have still gone after him and kept him captive at that underwater prison or some other place for psychological evaluation

So in other words, Zemo simply wanted to put distrust between the Avengers, but even he didn't imagine that Bucky would be Tony's parents murderer?

was this fucking movie seriously too intelligent for you?

He knew it was an important mission, but didn't have specifics. That's why he kept asking the guy he tied up what happened, until he finally got the info direct from Bucky.

Why do people get confused about why Tony went ape shit? Not only is the guy extremely impulsive as seen in other movies, but Cap had kept this secret from him. If he had explained it to Tony before and talked to him about it, maybe it would've worked out better.

Bucky is just there to create more tension but it doesn't hinge on him alone. Cap almost signs the Accords when Bucky is caught alive but stops when he learns that they imprison Wanda.

I love how people make these rational posts without realizing they have the benefit of hindsight and that people do a lot of silly things in the heat of the moment when emotions are flying.

Criticizing Stark for not being rational in that moment is really stupid and makes you seem kind of ignorant of how people react and things unfold in those types of situations. Being rational isn't the first thing that usually happens.

It's also a movie and they're going to embellish a bit for the sake of story. They did enough to suspend disbelief.

Cap was once willing to allow the destruction of his own universe because he didn't feel it was right to destroy another to save our own.

Cap acknowledges it was a mistake.

I feel it came from a personal standpoint from Cap, too. He knew HYDRA killed the Starks, but didn't know Bucky was involved. But he he had told Stark, not only would Stark investigate further and it could bring him a lot of pain, but there was also a very real possibility that it'd turn out to be Bucky, and Cap would rather look the other way on that possibility.

No, Cap knew. The Arnim Zola scene in Winter Soldier made it pretty clear.

But still, it was a shot in the dark. It could've easily been the Winter Soldier killing a random politician. In the dynamic of the movie it makes a lot of sense, we even start with Tony and his parents almost at the beginning and that becomes the central conflict, but in reality is something that Zemo found out by chance almost at the very moment the others did.
I think it would've been more organic if it started with Zemo finding about it, and then setting up everything, even having Tony realize it not in Siberia, but in the middle of the city. Imagine the impact of their fight if it happened while endangering civilians lives, with their fight being broadcasted everywhere. That would've been more dramatic and more of a disruption in the status quo; a point where it would be difficult to return from.

He knew HYDRA did it, but not that it was Bucky, as he himself states in the movie.

>disregard the brainwashing when you're in the room full of people who got brainwashed seemed so contrived.
He doesn't care.

They killed his mom.

>He found out who killed his parents,

No he didn't. See, this is the level of stupidity this movie seems to count on.

Did you forget Bucky was brainwashed?

SOMEONE ORDERED BUCKY TO KILL STARKS PARENTS

WHY DOESN'T IRON MAN CARE ABOUT THIS?

Because the people that ordered their deaths were already dead or in prison. HYDRA, as an institution, has been dismantled, and all its purpoted leaders - Alexander Pierce, Baron Strucker and Zola - dealt with.

He needed an outlet for that rage, and the man that actually killed them was right in front of him.

Ultron killed lots of people's moms. Was Zemo correct in his revenge? He acted the same way Stark did.

>were already dead or in prison

Crossbones wasn't? And who's to say Hydra isn't still active to some capacity? WHO????

Good job, you just found a very real character flaw. Tony's argument throughout the whole movie is that he has to be kept in check for having an enormous amount of power. Him going balistick at the end proves his own point that those with power have to be regulated, lest they end up using their gift for selfish reasons. It comes full circle becuase he's just a normal man, and that's the point.

No one said anything about either revenge being correct. But they're both very normal human reactions.

>Tony's argument is he has to be kept in check
>never checks his own power, instead wants laws passed so everyone is restricted

That's why I don't like Iron Man in these flicks. He's like some asshole who wants alcohol banned 'cause he can't stop drinking.

I've seen plenty of people on the Tony Is Right bandwagon, user. He's understandable, but he ain't right.

And that was user's point to begin with...

I dont think that's's a very good comparison. I think it's perfectly reasonable for public service officials to operate under an established communal organization.

Why can you not understand that Tony was so upset and angry that he wasn't able to think things through? The beginning of the movie established he was still fucked up over his parent's deaths, so to find out it wasn't a car accident, it was murder, to see the brutal murders actually happen, his ally hid the fact it was murder from him, and to have the guy that did it right in front of him all at the same time could upset anyone and make them just not care Bucky was innocent.

I'm not saying it was a good thing to do or the right thing, but it's not out of character or not understandable given the circumstances. I think most people would want to take a swing at Bucky at that point, it's just that Tony was wearing his death armor at the time, so of course it went much worse than that.

>Tony Stark
>normal

Sure thing buddy. Let me just get my suit of armor and fly around killing bad guys. Be right back.

I'm beginning to think CW has fewer, but bigger inconsistencies than BvS. The more I think about it, the more stupid shit I realize about it. Like really, really stupid.

Also, it's pretty fucking sad to see a more human Vision than Supes. I know Snyder is trying to make him as alien to humanity as possible, but he's also taking away a lot of the character.

Yeah, he's built as a super human but it's movies like this that ground him by showing that he's just as flawed emotionally as anyone else. That was my point.

Look, even if I'm willing to concede that point, it doesn't make sense that Tony doesn't even care who ordered the hit on his parents.
He doesn't even ask why Bucky killed them, he doesn't ask who ordered the hit. Nothing. Nada. Zip.
Everyone would want to know these things. The movie doesn't even allow for these questions to be asked. It's literally a plot hole in order to get Iron Man to fight Cap and Bucky.

It's a perfect comparison. Tony only supports the accords because he fucked up with Ultron.

The accords only regulate the good guys and they're strangled with red tape while the bad guys are ending the world.

>Cap had kept this secret from him

When did Cap find out about this? Was it during the flight with WS? Because from that moment onwards there as hardly a good time to discuss that kinda shit.

Still, I'd be apeshit as well if I found out who killed my folks, AND got to see how it happened. Brainwashed or not, I'd get really really mad.

You still seem to not understand it was a heat of the moment thing though.
I'm sure all those questions will happen at some point, but right that moment, he was incredibly angry and hurt and had a suitable target in front of him to take his anger out on, nothing else mattered right then.

Supes isn't human though. Pretending that he is doesn't make him so.

I mean, human in an emotional kind of way. Half the appeal of Supes is how he manages to be just another good guy in the world, even if he has the capabilities to rule it. Having him be almost silent and never smiling is kinda disappointing.

I understand that it was a heat of the moment thing. But even after it all ended, the movie doesn't show Tony the least bit concerned about the people who ordered the hit.

It's a huge oversight. They should have had Tony or even Cap at least address the fact that the ones accountable could still out there.

But nope, the movie just pretends like that's not important at all. Even thought it's the main reason why Tony loses his shit in the first place.

>Speaking of Zemo's plan. Why did he blow up the UN when the accords were already suggested? To put the blame on Winter Soldier? Since when was Winter Soldier an Avenger?

Bucky being an Avenger or not has NOTHING to do with anything you just said

Goddamn you're stupid

He already know who ordered the hit. It was Hydra, and the Avengers already destroyed Hydra.

Why is it so unreasonable? He clearly thinks about his parents all the time. Do you think it's so unbelivable that someone would get blindly mad after meeting their parents killer and finding out that your supposed friend kept it a secret?

You've been repressing the pain of your parents deaths for decades, then you learn they were actually brutally murdered and the guy who did it is standing right in front of you.

Even a normal human would lose their shit, and Tony Stark is an even bigger spazz than Banner.

You're looking at this from the perspective of a calm, detached moviegoer, not Iron Man's

You not been keeping up with the MCU, then?
Hydra is mostly done for, there's only small cells here and there.

Well, you wouldn't be smiling if you had to clean up other people's mess every time.

Every time he stops being Superman to pretend like he's an actual human some people are getting hurt.

But yea, let's just pretend that's not a factor and that everything is just honky dory and he only needs to be Superman when someone is in trouble.

In reality even if he was being Superman 24/7 he'd still wouldn't be able to save everyone and either you'd grow numb to it or you'd be at least a little annoyed.

Superman smiling is actually pretty creepy if you think about it.

He knows what horrible things that go on in the world and he's just going to be happy regardless.

Yep. Sure. That's not weird at all.

Every time I see cops on the news they are smiling.

> the Avengers already destroyed Hydra

I remember someone saying "Hail Hydra" in the movie. Pretty sure there are still some Hydra members out there.

That's a valid point, but that has nothing to do with personal responsibility of alcohol consumption.

The argument for drinking is that youre mature enough to not be reckless and keep it confined to your own personal habits. The accord's job is to create accountability for people to actively "help" those in need. To make sure they are held to the same standards of negligence any public servant would be.

I understand that.
But at some point Tony would have calmed down right? Let's say he managed to kill Bucky.

He got his revenge. He still doesn't know who actually ordered the hit. For all he knows the people responsible could still be out there.

They never address this in the movie. Do you see the plot hole yet?

Brah, did you just not pay attention to the movie?
He was a retired Hydra member that had files from 1991, not an active member or nothing.
Unless you are suggesting Stark should really spend time hunting down old men that haven't been relevant in years.

>Every time I see cops on the news they are smiling.

Yeah, every time I see a cop they're scowling and brooding.

Fuck off. You know I'm talking about the comics, from which some semblance I'd like to see on the big screen, especially regarding my favorite hero. This Supes is boring, is all -- if he wasn't, I wouldn't be pointing it out. Feels more like a Marvel character than a DC one.

He retired.

it's not a plot hole because hydra is done. they've already spent a shit ton of time on hydra in the mcu, we don't need to see tony stark hunting down the dregs.

There's not plot hole, Jesus.

1. Stark's never been able to get over his parents' deaths, as clearly shown during the beginning.

2. Dude then got mad, and with good reason

3. He's mad and realizes his supposed friend hid this very important detail about his life to protect some lowlife that should've been put down ages ago.

4. He knows HYDRA doesn't exist anymore. Why would he be thinking about an exterinated threat?

Fuck Cap and Bucky.

Cap is a hypocritical asshole that kept the identity of the murderer of Tony's parents hidden, and Bucky should've just killed himself.

Nigger, are you seriously this autistic? Do you not understand how human emotion can dictate an irrational course of action? I actually really liked the plot of civil war, for a blockbuster movie it was quite intelligent. The ending even subverted the comic book trope of the final big bad reveal when zemo straight up murdered the other winter soldiers in cyrostasis - quite exquisite. Also the way iron man succumbs to emotion at the end is a very nice cinematic irony. He was in support of the accords because of his own recognised vulnerability of human emotional disequanamity, and at the apex of the movie this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when he himself becomes consumed by emotion in the face of situational adversity, following a suboptimal and destructive course of action.

You're making these assumptions of what Tony "should" be doing rather than looking at his actual actions.

If he had killed bucky he would have succumed to the plight of vengence just like everyone else in the movie has. Black panther literally says that Tony, and everyone else involved is consumed by vengence. That's a theme in the movie. It's not a plot hole, it's a character flaw. What validates the flaw is that it's consitent with the themes of the movie and proves tony's own point that people can't be trusted to use their powers without being kept in check.

He didn't though. He literally said in the movie he didn't know it was Bucky. It was an oversight to not tell him it was murder and not a car accident, but he admitted he was wrong there and apologized.

How can Bucky and Cap even be threats to Iron Man? Can't he just scan their fight patterns and beat their shit to the curb?

The point isn't who ordered the hit. His entire life has been built on the guilt of losing his parents, and never giving them their proper value.

He then finds out his best friend has been protecting the very man that killed his parents, and goes ballistic.

>He retired.

If someone said "Heil Hitler" you'd call him a nazi.

If someone says "Hail Hydra", he's retired.

It clearly suggests that there are still some people affiliated with Hydra out there. And then we have Crossbones. Who was he working for?

Ow, wait. You're going to tell me he wasn't working for anyone anymore. Maybe, but how does TONY know this?

HOW DOES TONY KNOW HYDRA ISN'T OUT THERE ANYMORE?

Hydra literally hid themselves for over 70 years. But now there are gone forever. We can be sure about this.

>people unironically discussing the plot of these films

God this board is shit

>If someone said "Heil Hitler" you'd call him a nazi.

No, I just either think they're joking or an idiot. You can't be this deluded.

I was cheering for Tony to kill off Bucky. What a shitty character.

That's not all the accords did. They create a chain of command and thus, suppress those who help.

Accountability is fine, but that isn't what the accords did only. Then you factor in how easily manipulated and corruptible those in command can be. Whether it be by HYDRA or Zemo. His patsying of Bucky led to a kill on sight order. Change Bucky with Scarlet Witch or Black Widow or any other Good Guy.

All because Tony can't control his power issues. A better recourse would be for Tony to stop building sentient robots.

Why is cap a hypocrite?

>getting upset becuase people talk about movies on a movie forum

Cap and whoever sides with him are fucking lunatics. A bunch of superpowered freaks with the power to destroy entire cities should damn well be put under regulation.

Fuck him.

>And if the reason was because he knew that Cap would stick up for Bucky and cause a rift between the Avengers, it seems like the footage of Bucky strangling Iron Man's mothers would have sufficed.
He didn't have that yet. He was going to the Siberian facility to get that. But he knew if the world thought Bucky was guilty, Cap would step up to defend his friend, causing conflict.

>being this naive

youtube.com/watch?v=yZkeUHM8FQk

You know there are people out there claiming the earth is flat, 9/11 was an inside job, all white men are racist and that reptilians are among us.

But neo-nazi's existing is just a bridge too far.

Ok sir, you've won me over.

What are you arguing, bro? That's a perfectly fine point like i said before, im telling you it's not relatable to alcohol consumption.

...

"Hey can we go stop the giant evil monster?"

"No there's a third council of voting that needs to be done before you can be deployed"

The real issue is that the parent organization of the Avengers used to be shield, now shield is gone.

>Cap didn't tell him because he would go ballistic

Also he didn't know. Jesus.

>Maybe Fury already is on the shadows preparing the defense against Thanos?
God, I would actually love that. That he'd been forming contingencies against extraterrestrial threats ever since the end of the Avengers.

Don't you know, Daddy America knows what's best for you, so shut up and take it?

Never said it's impossible -- I'm saying that the first thing I think when I hear someone salute Hitler is that they're an idiot.

They literally say that what cap did could be made legal if he sigend the accord.

People grossly overestimate the bureaucracy they'd go through. All the accord would do, is enable these insane freakshows to answer for their war crimes

>After the bombing of the UN, there was a shoot on sight order for him.
They then completely forgot about that and took him into custody

Cap is even more of an egomanica than Tony.
He truly believes that his judgement should trump over that of the entire globe. Even though he and his avenger have killed countless innocents already. What a dipshit.

That's because you missed the point. Tony's issues with governing himself are Tony's issues. Not Cap's, or Scarlet Witch or any of the others.

Tony makes his problems everyone else's. That's what I meant, not alcohol and power are 1=1 comparisons.

No, you literally said I was deluded implying that it was rather impossible or at least improbable.

I'm loving the backpedaling though.

Ideally yeah. I think the movie sets up a good view point that no one can really see what the future holds and that each side can easily have huge implications in how power is allocated.

Because Robert Downey Jr

>made legal
>after the fact

That doesn't change that they were would be blockages in responding to threats. They'd have to break the law to respond and hope it's negated after the fact.

blow me faggot, I thought it was going to be the other way around. Iron Man saying "fuck you" and captain going "y-yes mr president sir..."

The only country that matters is USA, the rest of them are shit and should be thankful that we don't wipe them off the map. Cant fucking believe there was even an accord because some third worlders died in an explosion.

The judgement of one super hero is better than the US government. If you live here, you already know how retarded politicians are. Now imagine just how much DUMBER they are in the rest of the world's shitter nations.

Captain America was right, Iron Man was only wrong because the plot had to be written to create conflict. In reality, they would have never fought to begin with.

Jesus christ, they literally used to have to wait for Fury to go "Avengers, go take care of this".

Now they'd have to wait for the secretary of defense to do that. Much better than being a bunch of all-powerful, unaccountable superpowerful rogues that have respect for other countries.

Who's to say they wouldn't reinstate some sort of SHIELD to facilitate the responses to threats?

I really don't see the problem here.
If you call the cops, they don't have to wait until they get permission from their superiors.

Can't wait until China and Russia band together to fuck you up the ass. The sight of the nukes wiping out millions of americans will be beautiful

It's more the kind of regulation they were talking about, IMO. The Avengers shouldn't be weapons in someone's hands to use for agendas. The Avengers should be a group of people trusted by the world enough to do the right thing in a crisis, and given the legal authority to do so, and subject to dismissal if they do something too out of line. Because if there's a UN appointed panel to call their shots for them, they turn from superheroes to super-agents, or super-employees. Then the best trait for them to aspire to is not to be the most moral, or courageous in the face of a threat to the world, but the most obedient.

If they really think the person is not to be trusted with the fate of the world, they should simply not be a superhero. Not forced to answer to the agenda of some government official. Cap was right about how that just shifts the responsibility out of the hands of the person trying to use their powers to help people, and into some UN official.

But he's not governing for himself, he's acting as a public servant which breeds a whole set of responsibilities.

If you are able to drink alcohol, you are responsible in keeping yourself in check without anyone's involvment.

If you are acting as a public protector, you are acting under the assumptions and limitations set up by the public.

You can not compare the two becuase they are two different ideas philosophically.

I dont understand your last sentence, senpai.

> tv user arbitarily disdains a product based on a stereotyped preconception based on a word attached to that product, which in isolation has very little intrinsic meaning.

You think this gives you higher taste, but you've adopted a child's modus operandi, whom when presented with something disagreeable will close their eyes and try to ignore it and make distressed noises to avoid engaging it. Consider this: what is art in your view? Something beautiful, inspired? Why can't making something entertaining be a form of art? What legal definition have you disingenuously attached to abstract, subjective process? I'm not saying any marvel movie is art, but it has the scope to be, so ignoring it out of a shallow description of a type of movie it purports to be is wrong. The death of art isn't from mass consumerism, this has existed for hundreds of years, it comes from narrowing your perspective.

And even SHIELD was manipulated from the beginning. Did you forget that part?

>but hydra is gone!

Until the next one comes along.

Did you miss the part of the previous flicks that SHIELD was infiltrated?

Cops don't handle international threats.

Cap literally fought in the army as a weapon to defeat the ebil nazis.
But now he's above all that right?
He's now the decider of who deserves to be protected and who should be eliminated.

Very democratic of him. Totally not a totalitarian dictatorship. He's just protecting the whole world. R-right?

There is literally nobody in the world that would allow this. But hey, it's just a movie right?

If they want to stop him go ahead, but the people will side with him, just how they side with batman.
Its the difference between Good and Order.
Order isn't always good.

Governing himself, not governing FOR himself. He doesn't restrain himself. When he gets the idea to build a robot, he SHOULD say to himself that it's likely to go pear-shaped. He doesn't.

Rather than stop himself, he wants a regulatory committee so say stop that.

>I dont understand your last sentence, senpai.

That seems to be a big problem for you.

>Cops don't handle international threats.

You're right. Let Captain AMERICA handle international threats. People won't blame America if he fucks shit up in their country.

America has no problems with one of their citizens exacting justice in other countries.

It's just like real life.