So can we agree both of their master plains were based on luck and script?

So can we agree both of their master plains were based on luck and script?

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Lex kept refining his original plan based on opportunity. Zemo's made no sense whatsoever...how did he know (for instance) Cap would automatically side with Bucky? That he would engage in a showdown with Stark? That Bucky would tell him about the other Winter Soldiers? Etc.

I liked both villains. And both films.

shut the fuck up dccuck

Shut up Marvel drine hes right

was getting caught part of either of their plans

Only an idiotic DCuck couldnt understand a movie as simple as Civil War. Zemo clearly states that he studied the avengers and their habits likes and dislikes in order to ascertain their strengths, weakness and ideals.

Zemo basically says he was obsessed with Cap and the rest of them. He did his homework and wanted to bring them down.

Zemo's plan was based on luck, and he failed quite a few times, and in the end he did fail.
All he wanted was the tape of Bucky killing Tony's parents.

LIAR!1!!

GET OFF MY Sup Forums!1!!

Civil War and BvS were actually both great films. Marvel and DC both produce quality entertainment.

DELETE THIS

>Zemo clearly states that he studied the avengers and their habits likes and dislikes in order to ascertain their strengths, weakness and ideals.

Only a Marveldrone wouldn't notice that shit-tier, Deux Ex Machina justification...

>planning before doing something is Deus Ex Machina

He knew Cap would side with Bucky because even in TWS did.
He didn't plan for Tony and Steve to fight before he showed them the tape.

So, he knew Caps was queer for Bucky?

I can believe that.

I think it was stupid for him to kill off the other super soldiers and not waking them up to fight before showing tony the movie.

They were only bait.
He didn't care about them.
He was going to pit the two against each other and then kill himself.

>He was going to pit the two against each other and then kill himself.

Fucking lame.

Why not blow up Caps girlfriend, kill Bucky, then hang back and masturbate while he's falling to pieces?

Epic.

Lex = shit tier
Zemo = win tier

What the fuck was Lex's plan again? Zemo literally wanted to find a physical evidence Steve Rogers' best friend killed Tony Stark's parents and show it Tony Stark. He claims to have found this out by going through all the SHIELD/HYDRA files leaked online Snowden style at the end of Winter Soldier.

Lex Luthor wanted Superman and Batman to fight each other, and somehow found out who both of them were through unexplained means, but also wanted to make a Kryptonian clone weapon? And import a weapon that could kill Superman? And kill a US senator? What I mean to say is the overall goal was a lot less clear.

Because that would turn them into martyrs.

He didn't think anyone normal could kill them. In fact, that seems to be the only major leap in logic in his plan: he assumed no one else would be able to kill Cap, Bucky or Tony. Because this whole thing just falls apart if any of them died.

And...here we go again.

I gotta get to bed. Here's some copypasta as a midnight snack. Discuss:

The fucking thing the autists can't grasp (being autists) is that Luthor's approach changed SEVERAL times during the movie, as circumstances changed:

1. Work with Holly Hunter's Senator Finch to criminalize and control metahumans (a la Watchmen, The Incredibles). Collect data on Metas. Create incidents embarrassing Superman (like the African crisis, which spiraled out of control after Supes left).
BUT THEN...

2. Big Kryptonite chunk found. Hire thugs to bring chunk into country, at same time, court Finch to legally authorize this importation, which would grant him tacit Federal approval of his anti-metahuman schemes
BUT THEN...

3. Finch tells him to fuck off. At same time, he does obtain access to Zod's body and the Krypton scoutship. Continue illegal scheme to import Kryptonite, start working on a way to trick his way into the scoutship with Zod's fingerprints.
BUT THEN...

4. Batman swipes his Kryptonite. Accesses scoutship, starts researching Krypton, decides to create Doomsday. Blow up US Congress, killing Finch (Luthor fucking HATES being thwarted) and further humiliating Supes. Kidnaps Martha Kent, blackmails Supes into fighting Bats (who he knows has a Kryptonite advantage) while Doomsday preps. No matter who wins, Doomsday kills the victor.
BUT THEN...

5. Last minute change of heart spares Supes, who teams with Bats and WW to defeat Doomsday at the cost of Supes life. Now in deep shit, Luthor (deleted scene, but presumably canon) contacts Darkseid before his capture. Taunts Bats from prison cell that DS is coming.

...

I didn't see BvS yet but Zemo's plan was just to show Tony a VHS tape. That Hydra guy didn't give up the location, so Zemo had to activate Bucky to get the tape. It's not like the opening scene or airport fight were part of Zemo's scheme.

Zemo is racist against enhanced people.
SHIT SORRY, I MEAN PEOPLE OF ENHANCEMENT.

>Zemo basically says he was obsessed with Cap
If he was mad at the Avenegrs as a Whole, then why cap?

That's Zemo's thing.
He's a rusemaster, and he's obsessed with Cap, almost reaching homosexuality.

You kids need to be spoonfed yet again, huh?

manofsteelanswers.com/lex-luthor-explained/

>As long as you accept the underlying motivation and existential crisis (something that tech billionaires are strangely prone to), you can follow the logic and reasons behind Lex’s actions and see the careful planning and execution required. You can see how he had fall backs, contingencies, and ways out. You can see how he course corrects and keeps to his ultimate motive even as circumstances change. He isn’t a random force of chaos, except to the extent that he accepts Doomsday as the final say on power on Earth (and that’s only an internal interpretation; add what he learns about Darkseid and beyond and his reasons likely come into focus even more).

>manofsteelanswers.com

You need to crack the foundation.

>That's Zemo's thing.
>He's a rusemaster, and he's obsessed with Cap, almost reaching homosexuality.
In both cartoon they have more history. It fee llike he hate cap the same reason Lex hate supes in their movies.

>zemo makes 20 winter soldiers and kills them off just for a movie twist

Those winter soldiers were already there.
They were HYDRA's.

if Iron Man didn't just happen to find out where cap and bucky went, Zemos whole plan wouldnt have worked

That's why he told the breakfast lady to go into his room, so his scheme could be uncovered and Tony could work with Cap's team to come help them in Siberia.

this
did you even fucking pay attention during the movie?

he didnt need any of that

he was special ops, likely had some info of what the winter soldier was cos he was in 3rd world fucking yogslavia or something probably his organisation had ties with hydra some ways back

so he knew rumors or maybe solid info, we dont know how he got stared on the mission

he hted the avengers for ruining his city and killing family, he needed a way to bring them down

the winter soldier was publicly outed in TWS so he probably saw that on tv and remembered the old days when he was talking with some russian guys moving some boxes of guns when the guys told him how funny it was that they have brainwashed captain americas old partner, the famous boy wonder bucky barnes! and made him into a puppet assassin, that seems like it would be a funny story to tell

anyway zemo knows this, the files were leaked by widow and maybe he put two and two together and though wait shit there was a mission the same day starks dads died, what if it was bucky? he looked into it more and thought it could be

knowing he was caps friend he took a chance that it would cause a rift between them, but he needed a way to show stark the tapes first

he needed bucky in the lgiht so he could tell him the russian codes, the best wayto do that would be to follow cap and have him find him for me, he probably has been watchign the avengers heaps closey and he seems to be a master of disguises

cont.

do we know he hired rumlow? im not sure. i dont think it matters. i think it was just chance timing to be honest, he finally had the red book to control bucky now he needed to find him

suddenly theres a world peace thing and turns out publicly cap isnt attending, zemo probably already things HMM and decides this is the perfect time to bring bucky to the light so he pretends to be him and places a bomb, works as expected, everyone starts looking hard for bucky

zemo seems pretty intelligent so lets just say he had a hacked line into the german interpol and knew they were bringing in a guy to psycho analyze buck, this bit is weird i dont know why the guy wasnt security checked more but whatever, enjoy the plot hole, then he finds out where the tapes and secret base is from bucky and heads there

i think through all this he was cerainly ready to die, so he didnt care that they would probably find otu from bucky and maybe follow, the important part was he got the tape so he could show it to stark to really push them to the edge


the end

zemo hated the avengers because they caused the destruction of his family

theres no reason to think just cos he hates them he would love to be buddy buddy with some frozen mind controlled assassins that would only bring the world more destruction

if he has the same info as bucky on them, bucky says they are good enough to topple governments in a week

why woudl zemo want that, he just wants to fuck up the avengers

Lex's plan was like Andy Dufresne's. It relied on pressure and time.

Plan A failed when Clark didn't kill Bruce. Plan B failed when they both survived the fight. Plan C failed when both Clark and Doomsday died.

>He didn't think anyone normal could kill them. In fact, that seems to be the only major leap in logic in his plan: he assumed no one else would be able to kill Cap, Bucky or Tony. Because this whole thing just falls apart if any of them died.
That why he created Doomsday as a backup plan

that wouldnt destroy the avengers you dipshit

they would literaly do like their name says, avenger cap, then continue on with probably more fervor than before

im sorry but are you literally a dummy?

Zemo's plan was to get the tape and have Tony see it, that's it. He didn't need them to find him in siberia

Him knowing exactly how they would react as if he was some kind of god is Deus Ex Machina.

What was Lex's plan again? I mean he wanted to destroy Superman out of butthurt but then made Doomsday because having an uncontrollable monster is better than the man of murder.
Zemo's family got killed due to actions of the Avengers. So he wanted them to fall apart and orchestrated several incidents to cause a rift in the team.

what do you mean knowing exactly how?

he knew stuff from TWS movie, cap tried hard to help buck, he has been studying them so he probably knows cap has been looking for someone, again probably buck, because zemo probably knows TWS is bucky cos hydra buddy affiliation from his special op days..

cap goes through all this trouble you think he wouldnt try help and save buck instead of bringing him in or killing him? his best childhood friend that he has laready almost died for?

and is it so complicated to assume that stark would flip out if he knew that cap, who he 'thought was his best friend' actually knew that his ex-best friend KILLED his parents, BRUTALLY?


are you also a dummy?

>baron zemo was actually just "some guy" zemo

oh okay

But he is right.
Zemo was luck.
Lex adapted to changes and changed his plan accordingly

>Taunts Bats from prison cell that DS is coming.
>ding ding ding ding
>ding ding ding ding
>ding ding ding ding
Also this pasta is perfect.

Lex saw Superman as a means of providing something beyond what his wealth and philanthropy alone could give him. Like a spoiled child, he saw how the world reacted to Superman's existence and wanted that level of fame for himself.

Superman was a controversial, polarizing figure since the Kryptonian invasion, but he was universally recognized as playing the pivotal role in stopping them, hence the monument. The short route to a similar level of adulation would be to save the world from a new "alien menace," even if it's one you have to create yourself, and even if you have to defeat it by proxy - the metahuman files.

He's sort of like Syndrome.

The thing is that his entire plan falls apart if just one thing goes wrong.
But he is a rusemaster, so nothing would ever go worng for him.
And the only reason Buck and Cap got to Siberia was because of sheer luck. I don't know why Tony didn't blowed up one of the wings of the Avenger ship when he had the chance, or asked Vision to do that.

People do realize that the idea of blaming the Avengers for any of the deadly events they were involved in is complete bullshit that is only a thing because the writers weren't smart enough to come up with something to replace the Mutant Registration Act in Civil War, right? No one with a functioning brain cell would actually hold the Avengers responsible for any of that shit.

Tony Stark specifically for the creation of Ultron, yes. But not the Avengers.

Stop acting like it's a credible idea

Well, Sockface was an insane person, so I could see him blaming the Avengers. That said, Zemo was a total flatline, and I can't see how anyone liked him.

He was in what, like 4 scenes?

That said, the idea was retarded.

I think it's the water in Sakovia. The Twins had the same stupid concept of revenge in Age of Ultron. I RECOGNIZE THIS PERSON HAS IN SOME WAY BEING CONNECTED TO SOMETHING BAD THAT HAPPENED TO ME; NOW I WILL KILL THEM.

I guess that Wanda wasn't responsible of killing all those nigglets.

Well, the Avengers were directly connected to that incident so Zemo is right.
He was still retarded for not taking his family to safety though.

No. She is responsible for the bomb NOT killing everyone in the market.

That's the faulty, bullshit logic I'm talking about. It's not like if Wanda hadn't been there, no one would have died.

This airbag broke my nose!
>This airbag stopped you from breaking your face on the dashboard

Connected to isn't the same as responsible for.

She did literally nothing wrong.

...

She was.
And it wasn't an accident.
Wanda ''Hotel Rwanda'' Maximoff will offer no mercy to those filthy apes.

But she is responsible for the bomb killing "people" in that building.
She could have trowed him in any other direction but she can't control her powers and she fucked up because of that.
Tony and Bruce were responsible for Ultron.
I can live with this.

Wanda "Hotel Rwanda" Maximoff
Wanda "Bomb Wakanda" Maximoff
Wanda "Run over Niggers with my Honda" Maximoff
Wanda "This is my planet, Blacks get off" Maximoff
Wanda "Coloreds In The Trough" Maximoff
Wanda "Uganda Blackout" Maximoff
Wanda "Black Mamba, White Condom" Maximoff
Wanda "Killer Kwanzaa" Maximoff
Wanda "BBC Stroganoff" Maximoff
Wanda "Fear Blacks Before All Others" Maximoff
Wanda "Rated R-Wanda" Maximoff
Wanda "Niggas Sod Offia" Maximoff
Wanda "No fan of the chocolate" Maximoff
Wanda "Black getting no Slack" Maximoff
Wanda "The Spook Nuke" Maximoff
Wanda "Taking the K out of Wakanda" Maximoff

Reading comprehension.

If not for her, way more people would have died.

>Tony and Bruce were responsible for Ultron.

He didn't target Tony - he targeted the Avengers, with heavy emphasis on Cap. And he completely ignored Bruce's existence.

I enjoyed both movies (a little bit more BvS , but I'm a superman fan, so I'm biased) . Anyway, this is what I didn't like about these 2 guys master plans. With Lex what bothered me was that even when we don't know which version of Sups we are dealing with (you know.. each writer has his own version of superman in the comics, the very first couldn't even fly he just jumped very high, and there are other version where he can literally move an entire planet) so we let that aspect go, but still the movie version is pretty much capable of detecting Lois Lane heartbeat/breathing from pretty far away, so how come he didn't used his super hearing to detect where Martha was being held hostage went there rekt those guys at the speed of light/sound (whatever) , came back obliterate (or subdue) Luthor and that was it , how would luthor know how far S could listen and/or how fast sups was?.
On the other side , Zemo's plan was a bit more solid, my only problem with it was (is) , that if he really wanted to create chaos among the avengers/tony/steve , why didn't he make that video of TWS killing in cold blood iron man parents , public? He could've made dozens of copies and sent them out to every media outlet, I mean he already impersonated bucky as a terrorist, so why not make the captain look even worse when he sided with this murderous assassin (because somehow the video where it's made clear that it was never TWS the one that bombed the UN , is gonna be made public to clear his name) , if he released the other video there's no way the avengers could recover from that , people would never look at the captain the same way, not even if tony stark held a press conference saying that he forgave bucky and that it wasn't him.. It would be too late, people wouldn't trust in the capn and/or the avengers anymore.

>zemo
>luck
>not adapting to changes

I got that.
But because of her a lot of people died.
>I have Hepatitis C but at least I don't have pancreatic cancer.
Yes, and even then no one knows about Ultron being made by Stark.
But Zemo is a rusemaster he surely knows everything.

Here's the problem I have with Zemo's plan:

Did he, working on his own, manage to decrypt the whole of SHIELD's/Hydra's leaked files?

If so, how does he know that Tony or someone else hasn't already done the same?

If not, how does he know what info is waiting at the Winter Soldier base?

Lastly, how can he know that Steve hasn't already shared what he knows with Tony?

Your metaphor is wrong.
>The chemotherapy caused non-fatal liver damage and my hair fell out, but I didn't die of cancer.
It's vital to address the damage that would have been done (dying/massive casualties) if not for the acting agent (chemotherapy/Wanda).

The point I'm making is that Zemo isn't targeting Tony or Bruce for creating Ultron; he's not targeting Wanda for working with Ultron. He targeted the Avengers as a whole, focusing especially on Cap, while also completely ignoring one of the people most responsible for Ultron. It's just shitty writing.

>It's just shitty writing.
Oh, yes it is.
Just like Bucky and Cap getting to Siberia because of plot convenience.
It's also vital to adress the damage that was done.
And you will still die of cancer with chemo.
Even then, niglets are not people so I don't really know of what damage I am talking about.

I wouldn't have used cancer as a metaphor myself. I was just adapting yours. Generally, when talking about the bad writing in Civil War, I compare it to attacking firemen for water damage, ignoring the fact that they stopped your house from burning to the ground.

Did the firemen also drowned niglets in a hotel just right by my house?

...

>Zemo's made no sense whatsoever
Zemo literally spoonfed each and every steps (of which there are like two: get the tape from bunker and show it to Avengers creating a schism) of his plan on-screen in literally every scene

It's confirmed that most nig nogs don't know how to swim.

How does he know that what's there is going to create a schism?

That's not what he was saying though.

Because muh Bucky.

Also, the only reason why Bucky didn't got killed at the end was because Tony didn't wanted to kill Caps, he even had the perfect time to do it.

Something that really bothers me is the Winter Soldier base being completely unmanned. Did I miss how that was explained?

he was saying it made no sense

it did, he just was not listening

because he knew from Hydra books that Bucky is Cap's bestest husbando

>because he knew from Hydra books that Bucky is Cap's bestest husbando

But that still doesn't mean Bucky had anything to do with Tony's parents.

what part of "i autistically spent a year decrypting Hydra books" you didn't understand?

He encountered a a winter soldier operation log dated 19 december 1990-something which conveniently is the date of death of the person who was directly involved in super-serum project

How did he manage to so easily disguise himself as Bucky when he bombed the building to frame him.

How did he have the resources to know who would have interrogated Bucky and where he would have been taken after caught.

Also how did he time the interrogation perfectly with the EMP?

What would he have done if Bucky was never caught or was killed in the process?

So he was decoding Hydra stuff on his own time, before Ultron, for whatever reason? Then, he researched the Avengers (because bad writing) and when he saw the date Tony's parent's died, he randomly remembered that something Hyrda-y happened on the same date and decided they MUST be related. And embarked on an insane, murderous plan to find evidence he didn't know existed?

Yes. He alone out of the hundreds of thousands of people who would be looking into those encrypted files found that and acted on it, working alone and with limited resources.

Tony Stark could probably break that encryption in a cave WITH A BUNCH OF SCRAPS, but for the convenience of the plot, he doesn't.

Steve, who now fully understands Tony's brilliance and instability, and already knowing of Hydra's involvement and the very real possibility that Bucky would have been involved too, chooses not share any of this information with the very teammate he took to task over trust issues in AoU, opening Steve up to an ongoing risk of Tony coming into this knowledge independently, again for the convenience of the plot.

Who happened to be Stark's parents? Yeah right, that was shitty writing.

you are watching a movie where robot with a chaos emerald lodged in his forehead pines over a lady that can manipulate matter with her mind

you forfeited your right to scream: "this cannot be!" when you pressed "play"/bought the ticket

> shitty writing
it's called movie and comic book canon fact that was established several decades ago

>for whatever reason
he literally explained the reason -- he wanted to get back at Avenger using whatever he can find

> when he saw the date Tony's parent's died
Howard Stark is not just a random person

He is Shield founder but more importantly he was working on super-serum project of which Cap and Bucky are both products of

If you are looking into Winter Soldier files, you are also looking at people who were directly involved with it and who mysteriously died

There is a difference between things that are fantastical and unreal (super powers) and things being just stupid. It's shitty shit, lazy writing.

I call it the Superman Line. I'll accept that an alien gains super abilities from absorbing the sun's radiation. Flying backwards around a planet to reverse its rotation turning back time, instead of just killing everyone on the planet is just stupid, shitty writing.

This. You can only suspend your belief so much, or accept so much bullshit before it's shit.

Even if he was researching Hydra to try to find something there that would allow him to attack people it makes no sense for him to attack, he was still on a mission to gather proof he didn't know existed.

...

>you forfeited your right to scream: "this cannot be!" when you pressed "play"/bought the ticket

No, I most certainly did not. Scifi and fantasy elements do not, and should not, serve as an indication of brainless entertainment. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed this movie for what it was. What I'm doing here is holding up a mirror so that the people that defend such sloppy, cynical writing can get a real good look at themselves.

We deserve better.

your line in the sand between believable and bullshit as applied to this movie is deliberate as fuck and doesn't make any sense

you believe people becoming giants (which doesn't happen) but refuse to believe someone can decrypt codes (which does happen)

And even believability is even beside the point

The point is, Zemo literally explained entirety of his small and simple plan directly on-screen and yet people still have trouble getting it

This isn't Primer, this is literally comic books

As much as I love those old movies, that scene was just so unforgivably bad.