The definition of musician is one who plays a musical instrument

The definition of musician is one who plays a musical instrument.

Given the definition of a musician, can a rapper or "hip-hop "artist"" be considered a musician?

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Are you aware you can delete threads?

are electronic musicians actual "musicians"?

Were you aware of the definition of a musician, and how it (does not) relate to the "profession" of rappers and "hip-hop "artists""?

What instrument does the rapper play?

Did you even read what you screenshotted? This post is completely redundant since it has the added

>or is musically talented
That could encompass anyone

/thread

The voice is an instrument

In the same way I don't consider rappers musicians, I genuinely don't consider electronic artists or DJs musicians either. I would say they are even worse than rappers, because they truly do nothing of their own merit.

At least the rapper comes up with his own verbal diarrhea.

rappers and other negroid hip hop artists are subhuman and incapable of producing coherent music

>""
nice

Is a rapper or hip-hop "artist" musically talented?

Given the definition of a musician, can a rapper or "hip-hop "artist"" be considered a musician?

>implying sampling and drawing from your inspirations to form a completely new composition isn't coming up with something unique to the musician

rappers are more like poets/lyricists

the voice, synthesizers, drum machines, turntables, mixers - all instruments

He plays with the pussys of young white women en bestowing them with his seed

>The definition of musician is one who plays a musical instrument.

Which is why Kanye West is a musician

Given the definition of poetry, is a rapper a poet?

>for exciting pleasure by beautiful, imaginative, or elevated thoughts.

Is anything a rapper writes beautiful, imaginative, or an elevated thought?

"Rob Me A Nigga"
(feat. Alley Boy & Big K.R.I.T.)

[Hook: Freddie Gibbs]
Rob me a nigga
Rob me a, rob me a nigga
Cause the bills too high, this nigga right here too fly
Right now I just might rob me a nigga

Was this beautiful, imaginative, or indicative of elevated thoughts?
Is a rapper a poet, meeting the demands of that definition?
Is a rapper a musician, meeting the demands of that definition (one who plays an instrument)?

>or is musically talented

nice cherrypicking

Electronic music is music that employs electronic musical instruments and electronic music technology in its production, an electronic musician being a musician who composes and/or performs such music.

What does it mean to compose music?
Does taking samples correlate with the definition of compose, to "write or create" music?

Let's throw you on some decks and see what brilliance comes out then

I think the clear thing to notice is that there are definitions for what makes bad DJs and what makes good DJs; despite your insistence on some atavistic fucking retro notion of an instrument being only a specific subset of stringed apparatuses, the fact is that being a DJ does have its own set of expertise, its own way of creation, and its own technicality. A proper set is expected to both have momentum while also having effortless mixing and matching of somewhere on the order of (usually) 50 different songs to create whole new compositions and feelings out of each. It's tough work and takes a lot of practice, and to deny a DJ the fact that he is a musician, whether you like it or not, is small minded as fuck

instruments are no longer relevant. this isn't the 1700s anymore. all of the biggest musical innovations happening now are almost completely electronic. playing an instrument is no longer a prerequisite of being a talented musician. in fact it's an incredibly outdated standard that uneducated normies seem to cling to for some reason.

You faggots are fucking morons. Electronic music is music. They still make compositions, just with layers of synthesizers. Saying electronic music isn't music is like saying shoegaze isn't music. Just because you can't hear the instruments doesn't mean they don't use instruments at all. Still don't believe me? Listen to Aphex Twin's Avril 14th

VST can be considered as virtual instruments, you fucking retard.

Is a rapper musically talented?

I was told in the rap/hiphop aoty thread that Freddie Gibbs is more talented than me, I play the classical guitar.

I see your point, but think on this: if I were to have provided any other example, would that have not been cherrypicking too?

I liked Tribe Called Quest quite a bit before I started learning about music, and I will freely admit it is better than the shit you call rap and hip hop today, however, rap and hip hop of any kind are still shit.

Zulu Nation, brothers last creation
Minds get flooded, ejaculation
Right on the two inch tape
The Abstract poet incognito, runs the cape
Not the best not the worst and occasionally I curse
To get my point across, so bust, the floss
As I go in between, the grit and the dirt
Listen to the mission listen Miss as I do work, umm
As I crack the, monotone
Children of the jazz so, get your own
Smokin R&B cause they try to do me
Or the best of the pack but they can't do rap
For it's Abstract, original
You can't get your own and that's, pitiful
I know I'd be the man if I cold yanked the plug
On R&B, but I can't and that's bugged

If a rapper is a poet, then he writes beautifully, imaginatively, and his writing indicates elevated thoughts. This can meet the demand of imagination, but is this beautiful or writing which is indicative of elevated thoughts?

What is the definition of beautiful?
Is it pleasing to the senses or mind? - perhaps

However, does this meet a high standard, is it excellent? Is it beautiful?

That's not the definition of poetry.
>Poetry (the term derives from a variant of the Greek term, poiesis, "making") is a form of literature that uses aesthetic and rhythmic qualities of language—such as phonaesthetics, sound symbolism, and metre—to evoke meanings in addition to, or in place of, the prosaic ostensible meaning.
Literally any word or sucession of words created to evoke an aesthetic is poetry.

>Is a rapper musically talented?

depends on the rapper. the voice is an instrument and both rapping and writing lyrics require skill. that's why modern trap rappers get shit on--they suck at rapping and they suck at writing lyrics.

there are lots of rappers with great rapping ability and poetic lyricism that qualifies them as talented musicians. you provided an example yourself, I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue here.

the people saying you have to play an instrument to be a musician are completely deluded and so far removed from the last 100 years of musical history that to even call themselves music fans would be embarrassing.

You know what is really fucking funny? I didn't have this planned out, I'm looking this all up as I go. Every time I find a definition, I feel even more and more right. What is the definition of aesthetic? - Concerned with beauty or the appreciation of beauty.

Is the "poetry" of a rapper beautiful or concerned with the appreciation of beauty? Is a rapper even a poet, one who has elevated thoughts, imagination, and writes beautiful things? Only one criteria is met here, and that is imagination.

Out on Bail
Tupac Shakur
Oh, I posted bail?
I'm out this motherfucker?
I can go?
Oh, fuck y'all eh, fuck the judge
Fuck the motherfuckin' district attourney and the prosecutor (fuck you!)
And fuck you motherfuckers in the jury box (fuck you!)
Fuck all y'all
'Cause I'm out on motherfuckin' bail
Y'all ain't never gonna see me in this motherfucker again
Drop that shit em!
Let these old punk ass bitches know how we runnin' this shit
Niggaz ain't going back to court you stank ass bitches

Is this poetry? Is this beautiful?

Does taking samples correlate with the definition of compose, to "write or create" music?

a musical instrument is tool with which one can create music

therefore, yes

You know most modern rappers know piano, right guys?
But besides that drum machines can be called an instruments because they still have the same shit as regular drum sets. Think of it like a midi keyboard. So yes, Rappers are musicians, Get over yourselves you dumb cunts.

you're still cherrypicking. these are lyrics from Mural by Lupe Fiasco

We're all chemicals, vitamins and minerals
Vicodin with inner tubes, wrapped around the arm
To see the vein like a chicken on the barn
Top Cat chat, let's begin another yarn
That's flying saucer cheese, or is it chicken parm'?
But roosters don't fly like boosters don't buy
So what powers cowards to get them to the top
Just to fall asleep listening to Bach?
The ribbon in the sky is the riddim that I drop
Dribbling the eye across the prism of a clock
That lacks meaning, but racks up stacks of fat reading
They catch Chief and wrapped up plants from trap dealings
Now what's a coffin with a scratched ceiling?
And what's the talking without the match feeling
That's buried living? And cherry picking
Every lemon from your berry system
Then proceed with the pack feeding
When I was young I had visions of another world
Sneaking looks at the porn stash of my brother Hurl
Incense smoke made vortices and other curls
Casting calls from porn films and ad space for rubber girls
I like my pancakes cut in swirls
Moroccan moles and undercover squirrels
I like cartoons, southern cities with large moons
Faith healers, ex-female drug dealers and art booms
Apologize for my weird mix
What taste like hot dogs and tear drips
And looks like pantomime and clear bricks
And smells like shotguns and deer piss
They on their hunt, kind of salty that I'm going hard
First part of a party, that I throw in parts
One minute you're playing pool, next minute you're throwing darts
But that's how you do with a party that you throw in bars
I run the Gambit like I'm throwing cards
From popular mechanics to overdosing hearts
Paint cold pictures like Nova Scotia landscapes
Nerd gang, make Mandelbrot sets when we handshake
A word game back up plan that can dam lakes
Backup the wordplay playing at the man's states
Means I can still be the man if the dam breaks

I just provided you an example of electronic music with absolutely no samples. And most rappers don't even use samples

>rappers are more like poets/lyricists
The moment you speak it, its not poetry anymore

once again you are cherrypicking single fucking verses from an ENTIRE GENRE of lyrical music that has produced hundreds of great albums, but of course you will willfully ignore the actual good shit because then you would look silly.

also beauty is subjective, and if I'm wrong prove it to me.

>Does taking samples correlate with the definition of compose, to "write or create" music?

yes, if you take, say, ten different samples, and arrange them electronically with the intention of having the end result be a listenable song or piece, then you have just COMPOSED music. it's pretty simple man.

BINGO

You are the only one who has been right so far.

Is this poetry? Is this indicative of elevated thoughts, beauty, and imagination? It only meets the criteria of imagination.

Is this beautiful? Is this of a very high standard, is it excellent? Is it pleasing to senses or mind aesthetically? If you are foolish enough to say yes to this one, then that leads to the definition of aesthetic.

Is this concerned with beauty of the appreciation of beauty?

The problem is that the definitions you are using to base your work are vague garbage.
Saying that aesthetics equals the evocation of a common beauty standard is pretty old-fashioned and premodernist. Aesthetics is more about the inherent properties of a concept and how they relate to each other. Those inherent properties can be considered "beautiful" according to different individuals.
I must accept that rap lyrics are retarded nigga shit, because they are more interested in how the sound of the words interact with each other.

Just because curiosity, give me some examples of works that, according to your fedora-tipper mindset, evoke beauty. Hope you don't post some entry-level classical music.

Americans BTFO

To say whether or not beauty is subjective delves even deeper down the rabbit hole. Now we have to be talking about art as a whole and philosophy (funny enough, I just finished both those classes)

Does the rapper employ his (assumed) knowledge of the piano in his "songs" and "poetry"? When does he play an instrument? Is a rapper a poet? Is what he writes indicative of higher thoughts, imaginative, or concerned with beauty?

Compose music. the first definition of compose is to write or create, but the second is "the elements that constitute or make up (a whole)" That does meet the criteria of the second definition, what constitutes and makes up a whole.

What is music though? vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion.
What is an instrument? a contrivance or apparatus for producing musical sounds

But is such an electronic device really an instrument that conceives music? Is it a real instrument? Is a keyboard (electronic/digital, not a piano) a true instrument? Does it produce acoustic or musical sounds?

What is the definition of musical sound? Sound produced by continuous and regular vibrations, as opposed to noise. Can electronic music without the employment of non-traditional acoustic instruments be considered music? Does it produce continuous and regular vibrations? Is it even capable of doing so without electricity?

>You are the only one who has been right so far.
This is obvious. Poetry is about the words doing the job, without the way the guy speak it or sing it influencing it.

no, guys. i was mocking OP. i agree that electronic musicians are musicians . i agree with you

>are electronic musicians actual "musicians"?
YES

By your logic piano players arent actuall musicians, since they just press keys.

see

any sound can be music
anything can be an instrument

youtube.com/watch?v=K44j-sb1SRY
youtube.com/watch?v=Bm5iA4Zupek
youtube.com/watch?v=Ay9BWM8lwOA
youtube.com/watch?v=HhyUVM2w6ro

This.
/thread

>are vague garbage
But they are not, they are what you would also call " a common beauty standard [that] is pretty old-fashioned and premodernist"

is art not held to a a common beauty standard? Does the rebellion of the modern "artist" truly negate everything that has preceded him?

>hope you don't post some entry-level classical music
and this says it all right here. In the same way that I am prepared to throw rap lyrics against the definitions of poetry, beauty, aesthetic, you are prepared to throw any classical music and dismiss it as shit. Does it being "entry-level" delegate it to being bad? Does popularity = bad? There are many popular classical songs, are you going to now claim that timeless pieces are bad now due to their exposure?

>I must accept that rap lyrics are retarded nigga shit
HA
>because they are more interested in how the sound of the words interact with each other
Does that excuse the fact that it is retarded nigga shit though?

this
the only people that say otherwise are either
A) not musicians or
B) have musicianship as a "skill" rather than a form of creative output like a member of your local quartet that doesn't write any original music of their own

Piano players are real musicians, their instrument produces true musical sound. Electronic players are not.

BINGO, spot on

>"true" musical sound
why is an oscillator produced by a synthesizer or a pitched sample not "true" musical sound
I played classical upright bass for a half decade, and moved onto electronic music because the music I wanted to make was limited by "traditional" instruments. Does that make me suddenly not a musician?

define musical instrument pleb

go further down the thread, I address that too.

>Does that make me suddenly not a musician?

Yes, that is my point, and I no bullshit really mean it

>moved onto electronic music because the music I wanted to make was limited by "traditional" instruments

Is it even music if you can't truly make it? Can you make it without the employment of electronic apparatus or "instruments"?

Could you actually and feasibly play your "music" with a real instrument?

is my electronic keyboard an instrument?

can you stop being such a music elitist

>Is it even music if you can't truly make it? Can you make it without the employment of electronic apparatus or "instruments"?
why wouldn't it fucking be you twat
music is literally just sound art with intent

I thought you -> were disagreeing with the above, ^, I retract my BINGO from you but only partially

you ever see those guys on the street who play pipes and it makes some kind of electronic-feeling sound? I would totally consider that music and an instrument. Why? He actually makes it, he composes it, he uses a true instrument that produces acoustic vibrations
youtube.com/watch?v=-0gED3rn2Tc

here is a video of what I am referring to. I would hands down consider this music and a real instrument


however, does the "electronic artist" actually make real sound? and by eletronic artist, I mean someone who is using electronic equipment, I genuinely believe pipe guy or any other musician who uses an improvised tool is a musician, but the electronic artist is not.
He does not create anything. He is not capable of actually playing the music - he presses a button. He is limited to places where there is electricity - pipe guy is not.

do you make music? do you spend days of your life obsessing over minute details in compositions? mixing your music for hours so people might MAYBE feel something when they listen to what you've created with your own two hands?
If not then you have even less an idea s to what the fuck you're talking about than it seems that you do already. I've spent nearly a fucking decade of my life dedicated to furthering my art and expressing what I want to express and making the sounds that I want to hear. and you dare to call me anything less than a true musician? why do you look at music in a box where anything less than putting your finger on a string or tapping a button on a piano is suddenly trite bullshit?
You call what I use to create an "electronic apparatus", what makes wires and chips any different from strings strung on wood?
and yes. I can play my music. can you play yours?

>all these easily answerable questions

Have you ever heard of a thing called google? Or are you just trying to start shit?

>he presses a button
so does a fucking piano player. you're so fucking dense. if you're a troll, bravo.

no, it is not

no, I was a pleb once too. I listened to rap, I listened to all sorts of gay shit. Guess what though? I learned to play the acoustic guitar, then I learned to play the classical after over a year of professional lessons, all while attending college (I had to take my art and philosophy classes as part of my gen eds)

when you do all of that, you finally fucking realize how stupid everything is. Our "art" isn't even art. Rap? - Crap.

When you learn to play a real instrument and you see some fag plug in a keyboard into a wall outlet - lol, you think this is a real instrument? When you see people "sample" others music, lol, they are original now?

It isn't a real instrument

Pipe guy plays a real instrument though. Improv instruments that make real music are real instruments. They do not have to be limited to traditional in the sense of renaissance/baroque, but limited in the sense of being fucking real and actually capable of producing sound on its own

Can the keyboard player play his "instrument" without electricity? Can it produce sound on its own?

>I've spent nearly a fucking decade

that is a real shame, you could have been using all that time to make real music

>over a year
wow dude, you know so much more than jean michel jarre who's been playing music for nearly a half century. why don't you go explain to him as to why his decades of work are bullshit because your first philosophy class told you so

go jerk off to eric clapton or brian may or some shit

>a bloo bloo bloo electricity bad thomas edison was a witch

>Homer was not a poet

/lit/ here, you fedora caricatures urgently need to stop talking about things you know nothing about and LARPing Victorian art critics on a Sami fingerpainting forum

Kek fuck off crossfag

so electric guitars are not instrument? they make the same sounds as an acoustic, and it takes the same skill (in some cases, more so) to play them. but because it needs the help of an amp, its not a real instrument?

Lets say that we were to attend a performance together. There are two musicians, one electronic, the other using a real instrument. The electronic musician enters stage, plugs in a laptop, then has flashing lights and everyone dances. The musician with the real instrument, comes in, plays his music, and the same thing happens.

But did the electronic musician really play music? Or did he just plug in his laptop and play back something he made in sony sound production?

I started with the basics, then moved on to the real deal. this is all years ago too.

You got me in a corner here, but I will still say no. All we're doing is making kewl sounds, could you really do that without your soundboard, pedals, amplifier?

>funnily enough, I just finished first year art history and philosophy
>I know everything there is to know about aesthetics now! all the thousands of books throughout history written on the subject have been downloaded directly into my brain
>no rappers, electronic musicians, or enthusiasts of either genre have degrees, including Master's degrees or PhD's in the humanities, right? I am the first person to ever bring my enlightened knowledge to this subject

i really feel like op just came here to piss us off and im gonna say he succeeded
but really, why do people think like this? they do it with all kinds of other art forms too, but why?

The definition of musician is one who plays a musical instrument.

Given the definition of a musician, can Andrea Bocelli be considered a musician?

see but now you're playing games.
there is a massive difference between deadmau5 presing play on pre-made tracks and an actual performance based group playing live electronic music like kraftwerk

The definition of musician is one who plays a musical instrument.

Given the definition of a musician, can the members of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir be considered musicians?

The definition of musician is one who plays a musical instrument.

Given the definition of a musician, can Bobby McFerrin be considered a musician?

>could you do that without...
no! and thats my point. take a lead guitarist, a talented one ike Hendrix, you couldnt play a hendix song on acoustic and have it sound right

give it up m8. op isn't gonna give. he's got his 2nd semester of philosophy 101 to think about

then we will have to disagree then. irl i will never share my views and of course i will be supportive outwardly, but inwardly i will always know that they aren't real musicians. you think i'm playing games? those faggots are playing games, its all fake bullshit. again, strip away all the cables and fake shit and they wouldn't be able to make music alone

I FUCKING MEAN EVERY BIT OF IT

Imagine your whole life, because you dwell in a western nation, where art was once a beautiful thing and upheld to high standards, you have to listen to NIGGA NIGGA NIGGA NIGGA NIGGA
ROB ME A NIGGA
FUCK A NIGGA
FUCK POLICE
SHIT NIGGA

all day long because "art" has denigrated to the point that this is acceptable.
Is calling dogshit dogshit really a bad thing?

You know why i came to make all of you made? because I'm fucking mad, I'm tired of seeing these idiots who actually buy into their own bullshit. Fully grown ADULTS actually think its acceptable to listen to trash

and don't even get me started on the electronic "musicians"

strip away all the cables and bullshit and you're left with some fat faggot who can't do anything of his own merit. Again, it isn't about being constrained to baroque/renaissance era instruments, but about actually being able to play your music.

know why pip guy is cool? because he actually fucking plays music, with an actual fucking instrument he made that produces real sound on its own

>"art" has denigrated to the point that this is acceptable
son get some John Cage in your life, the boundaries of art have already been pushed way beyond that

it really turns me on to see you get mad about shit that means absolutely nothing
can't wait till anyone and everyone that jerks off to the idea of staying in the past dies and my art and the art that my peers make continues to be loved because it's the future
you'll forever be an old man yelling at a cloud and I'll be riding the waves of the future of music and loving every moment of it

>only acoustic instruments are instruments

kill yourself

and to reiterate my last point on us simply having to disagree, hendrix is a great example

in the end, its not real music, its fake, its like cheating ffs

you're having your pedal, board, amplifier do all the work for you.

At least I got you all to concede that rap is dog shit though, thank god for that

even though I think less of electronic musicians in regards to merit/skill, from a taste standpoint rap is horrifying compared to electronic music

i have a classic piano. lets say i make a little sonatina. then i play the same thing on my electronic keyboard. suddenly its not music. just because the sound isnt acoustic doesnt mean the talent required to play it is any different. electronic pianos and acoustic ones all havethe same fucking keys

>browses the youtube comment section for kiss once

no, you don't understand, electric = not music. that's the rule. I said so. I am the music master. I say what is and isn't music. do my bidding or I will write mean things at you on the internet

You're missing the point, everything can only continue to go downhill from this point onward. but just know that no matter what you do, unless you take the time to learn how things were, what you consider art actually isn't art, and never will be

rap is not art, no matter how you dress it up it will always be trash

yes, then it is no longer music. you're just making kewl sounds at that point

i know very few will agree with me, but now that i have been playing for a while, i cannot adopt any other viewpoint

i own a les paul myself, but i know that every time i pick it up its just a manufactured, soulless sound

you know that amps pick up the vibrations right? they pick up the acoustic vibrations and amplifiey them. yr point is null

there's no point to miss.
I don't care why or how you adopted your viewpoint. art is not objective, as much as you really wish it was. that's the point. you're grasping at a past you glorify for no reason (and i'm gonna make a shot in the dark and say you don't like black people or you're a "race realist" or whatever)

that is why i said you backed me into a corner, but this one thing doesn't negate everything else. and pic related is my electric, i'm not just talking out of my ass. strip away the amp, the kewl shit, is it still uber kewl? growing up i was led to believe these were the most badass dudes, but then one day years down the road you finally realize that its all fake

Again, go back and look through the whole thread: can you honestly say my argument isn't legitimate, as much as you don't like it?

looking for straws now, I'll throw you a bone then

have you ever met a black who wasn't a degenerate, I certainly have. Have you ever met a black from another country? could you notice a difference between that man, and the average black male in the US?

ideology and culture is the issue here, not race
if you put me in say afghanistan from birth, even though i'm not arab, i would likely grow up with the beliefs that are prevalent to that region

in the same way, the black in the US is subjected to filth from birth, and the cycle perpetuates

>one day years down the road you finally realize that its all fake
this is you

oh no! you have not done my bidding. now I, the music master, will have to write mean things at you on the internet.

you are mean
you have a higher body fat % than the average person
i don't like what you say
reeeeeeeeeeeeeee
my mom says i'm cooler than you are

i think after that you have been sufficiently whelped
now do you see what the music master can do? don't spite me again

i knew it!! you've already lost m8, can't wait till you come home to your wife getting slammed by some black dude lol, i can smell you guys from a mile away

i cant believe i'm arguing with a highschool freshman

talk all the shit you want, but you still haven't addressed any of my points

electronic music = fake music, it isn't real, it doesn't produce acoustic sound
rap = crap that seriously popularizes criminality

ROB ME A NIGGA is now considered something worthy of praise?

It all goes back to the start, what instrument does the rapper play?
And is an instrument really an instrument if it isn't capable of producing musical sound (which is defined as acoutic and percussive sound rather than noise)

hint: electronic music is noise

ok i've got a challenge for you. plug in your guitar and play something remorely as good as purple haze. record it and upload it to vocaroo. thenpost it here. if you can do that, because its all just "amp and kewl sounds" then i will agree with everything you said and i will cede my opinion.

if not, i highly recommend that you eat shit

>rap = crap
man you sound like me circa 2010 lol

...

this is the most retarded thing i've ever read

...

>voice isnt an instrument

WTF I hate electric guitars now

Do you honestly think saying this makes it not true?

Are you honestly going to tell me that black culture in the US isn't centered around antisocial and criminal behaviors?

Have you ever met a black person from another country, or traveled to another country?

And here is proof, no, I really mean what I say. Blacks in the US are horrible - it isn't so in other countries. I have been to North America, South America, and lived in Europe for 2 years, and also hold dual citizenship. I am not a Sup Forums browser who has never left his fucking country, and I can say this from experience

the black in the US is taught to act like a nigger from birth, not so in other countries. The ideology is what gets to them.