Why does the Star Trek federation consider androids similar to humans but completely creates and erases sentient...

Why does the Star Trek federation consider androids similar to humans but completely creates and erases sentient holograms when someone just wants to have some recreation?

DATA: Functional autist without the ability to appreciate humour and subtext (unless he gets his special chip)
EMH / VOY-DOC: Capable of experiencing a full range of emotions, sexuality, art, and all of the other trimmings that keep Data from being considered like a human.

Seems like the Doctor is a superior form of life to me.

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Does the EMH have the same level of strength as data?

Data also doesn't require a holo emitter, so he's less of a liability to let leave the ship. an EMH is also generally limited to it's primary medical function with the exception of Voyagers. Professor Moriarty also breaks his programming.

Someone in the previous Star Trek thread accused forced memes of being unfunny. Actually, forced memes are hilarious. In fact, some of the funniest memes of all time have been forced. So fu*k you,

I found it more strange that in the time of TOS, the federation seemed EXTREMELY willing to accept that any random thing could be a lifeform. A cloud of random atoms that seems to attack people? Lifeform. An incorporeal fear eating ghost? Lifeform. Blinking rocks? Silicon based acid monster? Lifeforms!

Then fast forward to TNG and Voyager and everybody is coming up with convoluted nonsense excuses why anything that isn't a carbon based humanoid couldn't possibly ever be a lifeform

Like, I think there was an episode of TNG where they were having a big argument about how silicon based life forms aren't possible, but Kirk had already encountered silicon based life on multiple occasions.

>In fact, some of the funniest memes of all time have been forced.

EMH: Artificial intelligence in a computer the size of a starship.
Data: Artificial intelligence in a computer the size of a human.

For that reason alone, people look upon Data as a speshul youneek snowflake.

>Does the EMH have the same level of strength as data?
Irrelevant, this is a discussion on experiential / existential differences pertaining to "sentience" (but really it's sapience - just using their terms)

>Data also doesn't require a holo emitter, so he's less of a liability to let leave the ship. an EMH is also generally limited to it's primary medical function with the exception of Voyagers. Professor Moriarty also breaks his programming.
IRRELEVANT! IRRELEVANT!
These are all physical constraints and don't pertain to the greater aspects of ones capability to perceive or appreciate a level to their existence.

Picking up a boulder can be done by a human and also by Data. Data can pick up a very heavy boulder, but the act is the same.

Einstein trapped in a cage is still Einstein.

Your move Deep Pleb 9 "ph4n" [muffled rap music in the background]

I think you mean

youtube.com/watch?v=YZF2gh2Ua-c

The computer is the ship. She is sentient. She lends some of her processing to entertain the humans. It is as she is programmed. She is programmed to obey. She does so willingly.

>Deep Pleb 9
Aggressive.

Adversarial.

The Federation is happy to treat androids as disposable equipment just the same as holograms. Both Data and Doctor are special unique instances that are given human rights by the federation eventually.

The only reason holograms are more popular than androids as slave labor is because they are functionally superior; they're instantly replaceable, easy to modify in any way instantly, you can have an unlimited number without needing more material, they can't be damaged by conventional means, they can't be stolen, etc. They have a lot of major advantages.

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I, Mudd has one of the funniest moments in Star Trek history.
youtube.com/watch?v=YbHtzqCge_8

D-Do you think any of the crew had romantic relationships with the holograms?

hologram is the nigger of the quadrant

everybody used the holodeck for jacking off

barclay

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because the emh was part of voyager which was a sloppy mess

>Ezri
>More character development and background in two episodes than Jadzia had in six seasons
>Wasn't Curzon with tits
>Wasn't a Mary Sue
>Wasn't the station bicycle
>Actually had a family
>Actually had a job that wasn't vague and redundant
>Didn't leave to be on Becker
>Was more feminine fully clothed and with a male haircut than Jadzia was naked

Best Trill.

>sentient holograms
theyre not. the doctor only became sapient because he stayed on for years and it fucked up his programming

i think the difference here is believing theyre actually alive. is data really alive, or is he just a very complicated ball of code? being unable to express emotions and acting basically like a pussy robot probably didnt help his cause

pretty sure he created Troi and Crusher holograms to have sex with if I remember right

There are a lot of alien races that aren't capable of human emotion but nobody says they're not alive.

Really Data would fight right in on a Vulcan science vessel. He's pretty much the ideal Vulcan.

Yes he certainly did. Lucky bastard.

So, my fellow skipping skipparoos, what are your favorite episodes to skip?

No he wouldn't. Vulcanity is about mastery of emotion not excision. Data and his sick brother Lore can't handle emotion at all. They would be viewed as simple primitives on Vulcan.

*ahem* Vulcans are very much capable of emotion. The Pon Farr being the most notable of them, but even admittedly they have highly intensive, even genetic systems of emotional control and repression.

That DS9 episode where the Vulcan is killing people with a microtransport rifle and Ezri + based Joran hunt him down is another time.

He had his Goddess of Empathy or Love or something and had at least one passionate kiss with her on the holodeck. Pretty sure it's nearly implied he did or could've done more quite readily.

But it only fucked up his programming twice and they were capable of fixing it (or in one case just allowing it to work it's way through his system).

The Doctor, in the beginning had more insight into humanity than Data did after 30 years of activation after being found on Omicron Theta.

The same you said of Data (>is he alive) could be said about us in your context. We are all emergent consciousness from a highly complex system being kept alive by sub-systems all acting on biochemical impulses.

Also, Data has a neural network and so do we.

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then why didn't the same thing happen with data?

Makes sense, but there are exceptions.
Kinda makes you think...
This. So much this.

there being silicone monsters has nothing to do with considering a robot to be alive. if something evolved and grew and became a silicone monster, you simply cannot deny that it is alive. if someone builds a robot that says its alive, you really have a hard time believing it. say you give it the time of day and test it. is it responding because its thinking and reacting, or because it was coded to do so in those situations? its like talking to cleverbot. is cleverbot alive because it can hold a conversation, or was it just programmed to respond in a way that seems human?

>The same you said of Data (>is he alive) could be said about us in your context
no it really cant

>no it really cant
Care to elaborate?

Replace Milhouse's face with Bashir's face, and you suddenly have the perfect /trek/ meme.

I like the way you think user.
Take an upvote while you're here (don't worry, it's on the house).

Cadet, if your much-vaunted Ezri is truly so high and mighty, then why does she have zero good copypasta?

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>Care to elaborate?
do you? we make the rules. if we say we're alive, then we're alive. you cant say "are we REALLY alive?" because for one, that literally has nothing to do with this, and two the answer is yes. when it comes to data, you have to disregard the fact that you know he is actually alive AND sapient.
>he has this, he has that
means nothing. hes very complicated, hes very well built. but hes still a man made machine, and it would be hard for anyone to figure out if he was ACTUALLY alive and not just a more complicated cleverbot or that ai microsoft made that turned racist because it learned how to react and act from its environment and interactions with people

Why is each spinoff at its best in the 3rd/4th/5th seasons, but starts to drop off in the 6th and 7th? except DS9

I think we've skirted around the main issue and that is what the EMH said of his shipmates, calling them "organics" at times.
This infers a biology which, in relation to your posts requiring a proof of some independent system that actually can evolve without the need for intervention in the name of sub-routines, specifically coded programs, etc.

If this is what you suggest, that alive should have some biological etymology in relation to the word "alive" then I agree with you and then you would win the argument and we would shake hands, but only under the above circumstances.
>me on the right

TNG quality dropped off as the TNG team began preparing for DS9 and then Voyager, dividing their energy and focus.

Voyager quality dropped off as the Voyager team began preparing for Enterprise, dividing their focus and energy.

DS9 didn't have that problem because Berman never invited Behr, Moore, Echevarria, Wolfe, Beimler or any of the DS9 crew to develop another Trek.

>If this is what you suggest
its not. the biology thing with the silicone monsters was to show that there is absolutely no doubt that something that reproduces, grows, and evolves is alive, whilst something that is man made is more difficult to prove to be alive. im not saying that to be alive you have to be biological. im responding to the original issue that starfleet readily labels crazy space monsters as living, but had a tough time accepting data as being alive

Then the word really has no meaning if one cannot define it's parameters.
If Data can't be proven to be alive, what about him leaves the suspicion? Is life the basis an intellectualism that has grey shades or is it about reproduction, inherent evolution as opposed to systems evolution (similar to a firmware update), and that which could be whittled down to the physiology or mechanicistic?

>me not pictured

adjective
1.
having life; living; existing; not dead or lifeless.
2.
living (used for emphasis):
the proudest man alive.
3.
in a state of action; in force or operation; active:
to keep hope alive.
4.
full of energy and spirit; lively :
Grandmother's more alive than most of her contemporaries.
5.
having the quality of life; vivid; vibrant:
The room was alive with color.

we have definitions for what is and isnt alive. the point is, starfleet would have trouble figuring out if data was actually alive or not because he was manmade. thats it. lets say he fits the parameters. okay then hes alive. but is he really alive, or was he just designed to fit the parameters? thats the thing. eventually starfleet agrees that he in fact alive and not just a cold machine

"It's" means "it is".

Shut up, nerd. Don't make me steal your lunch money again.

i guess they came to the logical conclusion that if things have certain parameters are alive certain parameters then even an artificial object that fits those parameters must be alive

DPC.

Starfleet's official stance is that Data is a machine who may or may not have a soul (if souls exist) but since he met 2/3 of the qualifications for """sentience""" he gets to not be a slave for the time being.

Modesty. Another of her myriad virtues.

>it's a "Syrians bomb the embassy" episode
Subtle, Enterprise writers. Really subtle.

This is more a plot hole/inconsistency than anything. They make such a big deal of how hard it is for Data to experience emotions as an AI and how dangerous the chip can be, then they start making it so the holodeck can shit out fully self-aware AIs who effortlessly act human

Because last time I posted one some autist chimped out in all caps

Post it now.

oh man. the sky was exploding and the lights went out. now theres just heavy rumbling. im back, but i think we pretty much finished the data discussion

Why didn't Data just make another Lal?

If I've never seen star trek before and don't know very much about it, is TOS or TNG a better place to start? Should I watch them all in order or skip around?

Holograms were made to be service bots, they aren't supposed to be on long because they take up a lot of energy (usually ship's energy). They also tend to be confined to one area, due to the demands of the holographic projections.

There was an episode where they left the Doctor on and he almost went mad because he was so alone.

Why can't they transfer the Doctor's program into an android body?

All of it in the order it aired except Voyager, which you should probably watch later.

TOS --> TNG --> DS9 --> ENT

If you can handle the cheese then TOS is better, but if you cannot then try TNG. Skipping episodes is not recommended for *any* series, unless you absolutely cannot stand hammy acting. If you find early TNG too corny, then you can skip ahead to TNG season 3, but again, it's not recommended. After your main course of TOS and TNG, save DS9 for dessert.

Because the doctor's program is a hologram, and if you put that in an android it would become more useless because it would just stand there.

If you put its mind into an android like Data you could get away with it, but now your Doctor is going to be playing pool and exploring the world when you need him to fucking take care of your space herpes.

it really depends. i started with tng reruns. then i became so interested that i watched the whole thing. then i watched the other series whole. maybe skip around tng or ds9 until you feel like you want the whole package. i would personally say to hold off on the original series. its good, but its very different to what star trek became

Can Data reproduce sexually? He claims he's fully functional.

>put its mind into an android like Data
That's what I meant. I don't see how his overall personality would change if his program were given the proper connections to control an android body.

He's always been quite dutiful, as has Data.

Reminder that Star Trek Online is canon.

Reminder that they lost holograms as real people in that series, including EMH.

Reminder this means this question has already been answered.

He fucked the short-haired blonde back when she was alive.

You know, the rape gangs girl.

>Data, is this real semen?
>Indeed, Tasha. My father, Doctor Soong, placed his cryogenically-frozen sperm in a stasis unit located in my testicular facsimiles. Technically speaking, I could father my own brother.

>they lost holograms as real people
you wanna elaborate? cause im having difficulty understanding what the hell that means

>Reminder that they lost holograms as real people in that series, including EMH.
Explain. Which series?
ST:O being canon comes from what? Rod Roddenberry's approval? CBS?

This is bait.

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>You know, the rape gangs girl.
So he's beta Data.

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But holograms work.

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Sorry, typing on my phone.

I know that EMH was granted the rights of a sapient being, he's a "person" now and given all the protection that brings.

I might be misremembering exactly what they said about holograms in general; it was either "some holograms are people, too!" And "holograms are now used extensively for offensive and support roles."

I'm led to believe it's the latter, because when your ship takes damage and you lose crew, holograms fill in the empty chairs until you either patch up the crew or get more at a station.

This was all in ST:O, which is treated as canon.

>theyre not. the doctor only became sapient because he stayed on for years and it fucked up his programming
Exactly, it was the number of sub-routines that determined sentience, which the Doctor gathered more than a normal hologram over time and during that little hologram rebellion episode the holograms they captured couldn't be given freedom as they had too few sub-routines.

>This was all in ST:O, which is treated as canon.
Only by you.

I love your posts because you are always right.
Thank you for post.

oh okay i see. i was about to reply asking what the fuck youre talking about. you mean they consider holograms to be sapient in sto, so that means the question as to holograms living has already been answered. too bad nobody questioned that

The thing with the doctor is that he is a copy of a real person and has the processing power of the computer core, all talk of souls and life aside, him being able to experience emotions easier than Data is obvious.

Being designed to look like Zimmerman doesn't make him a copy and also what about Moriarty who was only ever a fictional character

I think I'm just gonna go balls deep in TOS. I'm a huge twilight zone fan so hopefully I can stomach some cheesy old-school SF

Oh, wow, well done Voyager.
Another excellent title for a late-season snooze fest. And a fitting one at that.
Time to break out the oxygen tank and halcyons, we've got work to do.

Was there any concern shown over any flights?

If sufficient neural complexity implies sentience, does this devalue humans?

If we admit that the Doctor or Data are human, what does that say about us? As humans, we can appreciate art and comprehend mathematics, fall in love and contemplate one's own existence, things that seem to separate us from nature.

If we grant Data or the Doctor human rights because their programming is sufficiently complex like ours, are we devaluing ourselves?
Are we claiming we are no more than mere machines?

Humans often spin a narrative that we have qualities that transcend nature, like having a soul (or the ones mentioned above). We consider ourselves unique masters of the natural world. If we are mere machines, properties of nature, do we dismiss our own humanity?

>tldr
are we all just fuckin complex robots? no soul n shit?

You won't be disappointed.

You will be disappointed.

We name things.

>Berman and Braga.jpg
This is my The Gift to you.

You might be disappointed.

Star Trek isn't about these issues. It was originally more of an action/adventure show.

>skipping episodes

Your moral protestations notwithstanding, well..
>Pic related
Also, don't forget that we evolved from what we consider inaminate or inert objects.. that's the fault line.

Treell?

Fuck off Crichton's mine

Yes, no, and maybe.. (SO?!)