It occurred to me the other day that, by giving us the origin and death of Superman leading into the Justice League, he's transformed the death of Superman from a largely meaningless comic book event into the sacrifice necessary to elevate a dark, cynical, "realistic" world into a new "Heroic Age." So there's yet another reason the religious imagery isn't meaningless. Viewed from that perspective, Superman isn't real-world Jesus, not "Space Jesus," but he's certainly become "comic book Jesus."
Let's run down all the different ways that "meaningless" symbolism has meaning within the context of the films: 1) It's a visual metaphor for what being Superman is - a guy trying to be a hero when his nature and environment conspire to make him appear god-like.
2) To clue us in that the people in his world are thinking of him as a god, unconsciously deifying him, and providing the answer to Perry's largely rhetorical question: "Do you know how people would react if they knew there was someone like this out there?" Well, here's the answer - when they see walking, talking proof that not only is there extraterrestrial intelligence, but that it's superior to them in almost every conceivable way, they try to turn it into an object of worship - a god.
3) To highlight the dichotomy that exists between perception and reality, an important factor when the discussion turns to magic in the DC universe, and one that's going to become increasingly important, I believe.
4) It serves a metatextual acknowledgement of Superman's place in comic book history. He's the god-like figure that ushered in the age of the superhero the "founder of the religion," as it were, and as depicted in the films, his sacrifice serves to bring Bruce back into the light, so to speak, and to elevate a dark, cynical world into one where heroes can once again live and breathe.
Holy shit. And this from a guy who flat-out says he likes his projects to be self-aware.
Isaac Gutierrez
That's pretty much the same reason why Batman's arc starts with Miller's TDKR's version. They're destroying their heroes in order to build them again from the ground up.
This guy talked about all this too: thegekdom.com/home/2016/4/30/a-thesis-on-batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice
>On the flip side, Zack Snyder does the exact same thing with Batman and his decision to start this Batman’s character arc from the end of his career like Frank Miller’s Batman was a stroke of genius. As this version of Batman is the most merciless, darkest and cynical Batman we have ever seen, equal to Frank Miller’s Batman in every way. [...] >That’s called hope and striving for greater good. Superman instilled that hope in Bruce Wayne and at last Batman/Bruce Wayne rose back up from his cynical darkness and becomes a more hopeful and forgiving character and Superman brought that change in him! From that perspective this movie works as an origin tale for this version of Batman as well. Ironically, he didn’t brand Lex Luthor in the prison which visually represents how he’s recovering his lost moral ethics and values.
>As you realized, this movie is a destructive art piece. The one which deconstructs 76 years of Superman and Batman mythology (along with all the preconceived notions that comes along with it) and breaks these characters only to build them from the scratch again, to turn them into the kind of Superman and Batman you love, the one which you refer to as “My Superman and My Batman”. When Justice League 1 comes around you will finally witness the canonical Superman and Batman that you love, because these two characters have been through a crucible which changes them into the heroes you love.
Adam Rogers
>you need quippity quips for true self-awareness
Brayden Kelly
Something that didn't immediately hit me until I thought about how Bruce is presented in the movie - he's seeking "justice" against Clark when no one else is. Even the government's only looking to establish a dialogue with him, not bring him for any sort of crime. That's way out of bounds for mainstream Bruce.
Even if he holds Clark partially to blame for what happened in the Battle of Metropolis, he still doesn't hold that up to Alfred as the reason he's going after him. He tries to justify it to Alfred as a preemptive measure, effectively going out to kill Clark not because of what he's done, but rather because of what he *might* do.
Blake James
You are correct user.
Notice that Man of Steel begins with the literal birth of Superman, and ends with the birth of Superman as a hero. Batman v Superman begins with the death of Bruce's parents and the birth of Batman, and ends with the death of Superman as a character and the 'rebirth' of Batman as a hero when he refuses to brand Lex.
The new DC comics run, that Geoff Johns wants to bring 'hope and optimism' to is called 'Rebirth'.
Justice League will begin and/or end with the rebirth of a more optimistic, hopeful Superman.
Isaac Howard
I find disturbing how much time and effort people put in these fucking capekino threads
Gabriel Taylor
Because you are a pleb. Still to Marvel, friend.
Jackson Diaz
Pure autism I really don't now why they are so determined to convince others that the movies are so amazing though
Justin Walker
They are legitimately the three best capeshit films ever made, though.
Anthony Hall
It's summer.
Hudson Price
I haven't even bothered with Superman and BvS because Zack Snyder is such a fucking hack but Watchmen was a massive piece of shit at least
Aiden Hill
Found the pleb
Thomas Collins
And yet I was here the whole time and agree with all of this. These movies have been love letters to the fans of the comics. If you want to see what Snyder thinks of fan*boys*, why don't you ask James Olsen?
Oh right . . .
Carter Flores
Another important subject that desperately needs to be discussed more is the contrast made in the movies between altruism and heroism, selflessness vs. selfishness.
In Randian terms, heroism is necessarily a selfish act, because in order for it to be true heroism the motivation is an urge to remain true to oneself. This is the realization that Clark has, he finally comes to terms with the fact that he needs to act as a hero because of his need to act in a selfish way, meaning that he hasn't betrayed his own moral compass and ideals, and he wants to protect the ones he loves. >Be their hero, be their savior, or be none of it. This world doesn't owe you a thing. >This is my world, you are my world.
This is contrasted with altruism e.g. Lex's charity events. Lex justifies his acts because he believes he's acting in an altruistic manner: Kryptonite as deterrent, etc. This might be counterintuitive, but he's acting in a selfless way, because altruism, in Randian terms, needs to be rejected because at its core it betrays oneself - the most important thing to man. Man is not a means, but an end in itself.
In the near future I'll post something with more detail explaining the parallels between MoS and BvS and the philosophy behind the conception of The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, hang tight.
Ethan Sanchez
Nice buzzwords bro you really showed me my place
James Lopez
the themes and symbolism and shit is great i agree but MoS and BvS have serious problems in almost every other department
Bentley Rodriguez
>In the near future I'll post something with more detail
please just kill me now
Angel Williams
I'm not all that familiar with Rand, but I think I see what you're saying. From a Randian perspective, heroism is internally motivated while altruism is externally motivated - am I close?
Oliver Sanders
Imagine how much better this board would be if people took the time and effort they put into analyzing films based on children's picture books into instead analyzing actual films for adults.
Carson Thomas
>effectively going out to kill Clark not because of what he's done, but rather because of what he *might* do.
yeah no shit they literally spell it out in the movie.
Michael Rivera
That's how he justifies it to Alfred but that's not his true motivation
Grayson Johnson
It really is just vengeance, isn't it? Just pure, irrational vengeance. That's all he has left. or at least he thinks it is.
The analysis on this thread is pure shit though He is explaining the most simple fucking concepts and themes of the movie by writing paragraphs of text and bunch of Philosophy 101 terms Have to start from somewhere I guess
Ryder Scott
Do you guys prefer the Director's Cut or the Ultimate Cut of Watchmen?
Kevin Harris
That's nice and all. but saying this has anything in common with pseudo-intellectual word salad that passes the peer-review bar is precisely missing the point.
This isn't meaningless. It isn't confirmation bias. It's self-consistent and perfectly in keeping with the sort of things that Snyder's gone on record as saying it's the sort of thing he likes to do. It's not even all that hard to pick up on to be perfectly honest.
Sadly(but understandably), this generates some cognitive dissonance among those who've long either allowed themselves or been told to believe that cape movies are intrinsically incapable of being anything more than big, dumb blockbusters. That might be what the execs wanted, but it categorically isn't what Snyder delivered. He'll suffer for it(relatively speaking), but he seems to have the backbone to take it. Fans should praise him. He's done something brave in an environment where courage and vision are actively discouraged.
You decide whether I'm taking about Hollywood or the modern world.
Grayson Perry
Director's cut here.
Jaxson Sullivan
These people aren't from Sup Forums though They're redditors from DC_Cinematic and twitter
Mason Young
I've been here since about 2011 and I think reddit's a giant clusterfuck not even worth the time it would take me to familiarize myself with its clusterfuck of a format.
Josiah Richardson
>As for finding the right filmmaker to bring this idea to fruition, Nolan explains why they settled on Snyder: Mr. Nolan, a producer of Man of Steel, said he thought of Mr. Snyder to direct the film because of his stylized takes on 300 and Watchmen, and his “innate aptitude for dealing with superheroes as real characters.” “That was what a new approach to Superman required,” Mr. Nolan said. “He understands the power of iconic images, but he also understand the people behind them.”
>With regards to the fact that Snyder essentially deconstructed the entire superhero genre/mythology in taking on Watchmen, Nolan says the irony is not lost on him: “It’s ironic but it’s a very productive irony. You’re dealing with a filmmaker who has deconstructed this mythology and now has to reconstruct it. That’s a fascinating challenge for him.”
>Snyder went on to discuss how Man of Steel fits into the director’s larger filmography: “I feel like my movies have always been very subversive, even when people haven’t perceived how subversive they really are. For me, what’s subversive about Superman is that it’s not subversive.”
what are the chances of amy adams getting a nude scene in the ultimate edition? they'd only have to extend the bath scene by like a second and it'd take the film from a 9/10 to a 10/10
Oliver Perry
bad bait
Luis Adams
I'll be honest, Amy looks really haggard in that movie..
Eli Robinson
See
Christian Bennett
...
Brandon Campbell
there's nothing wrong with being homosexual user, but please don't expect everyone else to share your values
Blake Watson
...
Cameron Ward
...
Dylan Jenkins
TBC
Jace Murphy
AND NOW...THE CONCLUSION
Robert Brown
...
Lucas Cook
...
Charles Green
...
Adam Robinson
...
Hunter Roberts
...
Daniel Morgan
...
Jason Thomas
How good is Clark Kent at bluffing?
Samuel Howard
THAT good.
Ryan Cooper
And now the story gets REALLY ridiculous.
Parker Cook
...
Isaiah Gonzalez
...
Brayden Long
I'm day drunk on the Lord's Day and I legitimately believe Snyder to be the only comic book filmmaker worthy of any sort of intellectual discussion and the only one who could be considered an actual artist, although the "capekino" meme is obnoxious.
Dominic Perry
WHAT.
Adam Martinez
These fucking comics..
Jason Sanders
And that's the end.
Jayden Roberts
Oh Snyder, Prophet of the Coming Age, please let this happen somehow. Please let this be.
There's only ever been one thing that could truly stop Superman, and that's Clark Kent.
Xavier Hughes
Thank you for this.
Nicholas Hill
Amy Adams is a fuckable milf. Redheads make great older broads.
Matthew Rivera
Reminder
Connor Nelson
>a man of real *metal*
oh fuck you
Gabriel Murphy
>It's a 'Zack Snyder isn't a pedestrian hack' episode >It's a 'you guys just don't appreciate how finely crafted zack snyder's work is' episode >it's a 'Zack snyder planned all of this' episode
You know that most people comprehend the simple imagery and allegory in his movies...right?
You're not onto something special here. Most people can see this shit, it just doesn't make up for the movies being morose, boring and senseless.
This is how I picture literally every single 'Snyder so deep' faggot: >needs a shower and has known they do for at least a day >has posted against and turned around and fapped to cuck porn >fedora wearer >owns mostly black t shirts >not a virgin but only because of pure luck and mutually low standards >boring, like these movies
no amount of shitposting will make capeshit unboring. go outside, smelly
Jace Gonzalez
Holy shit.
Liam Moore
I agree. Though it's also fun to throw out there to piss off the haters.
Julian Cruz
What's funny is that there's hints of a far superior story in there that you could definitely build on.
Elijah Evans
Calling it now. The end result of Justice League - after the political debate in BvS of how Superman should act - will be some sort of laissez-faire heroism where the Justice League acts 'selfishly' in mutual agreement with the world for the benefit of both, much like the result of The Fountainhead's thesis.
Thomas Watson
As someone not overly familiar with Randian philosophy, does objectivism distinguish between altruism and heroism in a manner similar to what's suggested in ?
Wyatt King
based thread BvS and Warcraft are here to purge plebs from Sup Forums
Benjamin Allen
you sound mad friendo, perhaps you should get some fresh air?
Aaron Rodriguez
But its bringing in all you plebeian redditors
Wyatt Diaz
It ain't all reddit, no matter what you may think.
Gabriel Harris
Is this a meme?
John Walker
>File: MAqivDah.jpg (191 KB, 1018x1024) imgur.com/MAqivDah It is and so are you
Carter Jackson
I got that image from here, but this is a pointless argument, ultimately. Neither of us can conclusively prove our claims.
Owen Walker
>he still can't think of another film to fill in that gap
So providing a link to an imgur post made ten hours ago of an image that's been appearing here for over about a week proves what exactly?
Ryan Turner
>But its bringing in all you plebeian redditors
Jordan Gomez
Sup Forums is dead. Thank you capeshit shills
Evan Evans
"Open your eyes. Look up to the skies and see." -A Musical God
Gavin Ramirez
Oh, so it's circular arguments then.
Luke Cooper
I haven't seen a capeflick since Iron Man 1. Now I'm going to watch all of Snyder's work to figure out how many layers of irony this meme contains. Thanks Sup Forums
John Cooper
If Inwere you, I really would wait for the director's cut of BvS. As a fan, I love the movie, but it does have some pretty glaring problems with pacing and dynamics, all of which seem to stem from the last-minute butcher's job of editing they did shortly before release.
Lucas White
For those crying about Reddit
I made the OP image and have browsed Sup Forums off and on for years.
Marvelcucks sure love whining about le Reddit Boogeyman
Josiah Gutierrez
>Marvelcucks sure love whining about le Reddit Boogeyman You sure are new here.
Carson Evans
It goes beyond them. It also includes all the sour grapes crowd who can't bring themselves to admit that a dumb "capeshit" movie was smarter than they gave it credit for.
