Belarussians seem to have some strong opinions about what this state was like. What about Ukrainians?
How is this period generally viewed in Ukraine?
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Greedy local princes wanted to split Rus' and not pay money to Kiev.
At first Mongols, and then centuries of occupation. Good job, hoholnomics/10.
Lithuanian one was the less painful, because we had autonomy and no problems with orthodoxy.
Is GDL seen as a foreign occupier or a Rus' state like it is in Belarus?
foreign occupier
Why do you think Belarussian historians are so hellbent to prove GDL's ''Belarussianess'', when Ukrainians don't, even though you guys were the same people at the time?
I see it as a foreign occupier.
Really? I thought that the prevailing view among Belarussians was that GDL was an early Belarussian state.
No, that is a meme amongst nationalists.
how widely is it accepted?
where?
we had own state with own leaders and problems
when it's falls, lithuanian dukes come, and local elites must to accept them.
it's like i'm living in LPR, even if I don't like it.
Is Lukashenko making you say that? What are the historical origins of Belarus then?
Difficult to put a number on it, but it is a minority view. If I had to give one I would say about 20%.
No, I am just giving the facts of it. The historical origin of Belarus is the same as that of Ukraine and Russia, descending from Ruthenia, we are one of the three surviving Rus' nations.
umm excuse me but Red Rus known also as Galicia is rightful Polish clay
we wuz kniazie and shit
you all are white croatian clay
> Za Tatrami, v rovinách při řece Visle rozkládala se od nepaměti charvátská země, část prvotní veliké vlasti slovanské (Behind the Tatra Mountains, in the plains of the river Vistula, stretched from immemorial time Charvátská country (probably White Croatia),
en.wikipedia.org
only Vistulans can claim to be related to you, our country was founded by Polans (who conquered Vistulans like a century later)
legend clearly states that rus,czech and lech came from land of croatia
also Krakov naš
Heh... Look at these kids bickering... The day will once again come when ALL teh slavs are under Lithuanian rule.
fuck off p*lan I am a proud Vistulan we will return to Great Moravia soon
Excuse me but all Slavs came from Macedonia. Then some of them returned back, some went to Russia and some to Poland etc
you ruled croats aswell
white croats were one of the tribes that made kiev
This Slav gets it. I just wish that others understood that Lithuania should be ruling at least 80% of Großlituanium.
>Lithuania didn't take Moscow
that's where you fucked up
reminder: "lithuanians (?)" kings were speaking in belarussian in that time
>Belarussians seem to have some strong opinions about what this state was like.
this
History of Lithuania ends after 1569
Name 1 (one) Lithuanian ruler whose native language was Belarussian.
No it doesn't, does Scotland's history end when they joined the UK?
Władysław jagiełło
>belarussian
nice word for russian language fagget,..
When did Belarussians suddenly become pagan and adopt Baltic names?
>What about Ukrainians?
Ukraine joined after en.wikipedia.org
how is Karl XII remembered here?
Poles and their revionism.
If Jogaila spoke Belarusian how come did he Christianize people in Samogitia who didn't speak Ruthenian?
Since none of the spiritual men who came together with King Vladislav in Samogitia, were not able to speak Samogitian, Vladislav, King of Poland, was forced to preach to the people of Samogitia faith and instill true religion.
(Et quoniam nemo ex viris spiritualibus, qui cum Rege Wladislao Samagittiam advenerant, linguam Samagitticam noverat exprimere, Wladislaus Poloniae Rex ad populum Samagittiae pro fide et religione orthodoxa suscipienda declamare coactus est.)
That's what Dlugosz wrote in 1413.
And Jogaila later himself to papal legate.
>Jogaila to the papal legate in 1421 (Lites ac Res gestae inter Polonos Ordinemque Cruciferorum. tomus tertius. Posnaniae, 1856)
"Samogitia and Sudovia (...) are an important part of the Lithuanian Principality and belong to the principality;
...
The inhabitants of this land speak Lithuanian. And they do not have any other language than Lithuanian.
...
Samogitia, that is, in Lithuanian - Lithuania lower."
You can choke on your own lies nigger.
>If Jogaila spoke Belarusian how come did he Christianize people in Samogitia who didn't speak Ruthenian?
>linguam Samagitticam
>religione orthodoxa
>Samogitia, that is, in Lithuanian - Lithuania lower."
why the full name of GDL Samogitia written separately?
The Statutes of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania name the complete name of the state as Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia
en.wikipedia.org
p.s.
I am not in any way deny the fact that this part of Lithuania
Because Samogitia was often acting independently from the Grand Dukes. You could in the same way ask why the name of Ruthenia is written separately.
Because Samogitia was autonomous region within GDL since Mindaugas times, they spoke slightly different dialect and had different nobility/leaders. Sort of like Bavarians in Germany.
en.wikipedia.org
But even in 1219 in one of the first known treaties Samogitian dukes, nobles appeared along with other Lithuanian dukes.
en.wikipedia.org
Vytautas writes to Emperor Sigismund in 1420 (Codex epistolaris Vitoldi. Pars I, Nr.861)
...in terra Samaytarum, (...) que eciam est et semper fuit unum et idem cum terra Lythwaniae, nam unum ydeoma et uni homines.
Samogitia which is and always was one with Lithuania, because the same language and the same people.
Sed quod terra Samaytarum est terra inferior ad terram Lythwanie, ideo Szomoyth vocatur, quod in lythwanico terra inferior interpretatur. Samoyte vero Lythwaniam appelant Auxstote, quod est terra superior respectu terre Samaytarum.
Because Samogitia lies lower than Lithuania it's called Žemaite which in Lthuanian means lowland. Samogitians call Lithuania Aukštaite which means highland because higher land than Samogitia.
better question is why do ukrainians cuck themselves into believing they are different from Russians?
>This comming from a Bulgar FYROMIAM
>your people are retarded therefore it's ok for my people to be retarded
fuck off baltcuck we rekt you in basketball
cmon man why u gotta do dis
>You could in the same way ask why the name of Ruthenia is written separately.
lol, Thanks, I'll remember this
But seriously, why this land has a status different from the others?
I almost do not studied Samogitia and now I do be interested to
Samogitia is like our Texas. Samogitians would were the ones who resisted outside influence the hardest. They were the ones who achieved most of the biggest victories against the crusaders in the 13th century. Even though though they were given to the Teutonic Order by the Grand Duke multiple times, the Order never managed to subdue them. They were also the last ones to christianize, only doing so in 1413. They also resisted the administration reform based on the Polish Voivodeship system, retaining the status of Eldership. It was also where Lithuanian National revival was the strongest.
Well since 1220's when Mindaugas ruled Lithuania he concluded truces or peace treaties with Livonian/Teutonic Order and Samogitians didn't accept that and continued to fight them. Later Mindaugas got assassinated by a Samogitian duke Treniota and later during Jogaila/Vytautas times Samogitia was given away quite a few times away as a bargaining chip during various treaties with Teutonic Order and given away to them, but they never really annexed the area as Samogitians never subdued to them and revolted every time, even Battle of Grunwald was provoked by Samogitian uprisings.
en.wikipedia.org
And later in 1441 Casimir Jagiellon acknowledged their autonomy and issued privilege to elect their elders.
Also they had seperate church Archdiocese of Samogitia established in 1412 in Medininkai as compared to Archdiocese of Vilnius established in late 14th century.
So in short while they had own elder/leaders/church/officials they still had obey and listen to Lithuanian rulers from Vilnius.
thanks guys
>ukraine
>ukrainians
Бyльбaны зaчeм в тaк?
>зaчeм в тaк?
???
very nice thread
/an/ have kot blini general
wtf I love /an/ now