Prove God doesn't exist
>angry atheists
>can't disprove God
Therefore, there is a God and you are blind if you don't have faith in the almighty deity. You fill the void in your life from drugs, sex and 4chin but with faith God guides us to the righteous path.
Thank you, brothers. May God guide you all. I welcome any atheist to challenge me but do so in a polite manner as I know you atheists are always filled with hatred and spread this to others like wildfire
Prove existence of god with solid undisputable facts
Burden of proof doesn't lie on atheists.
/thread
/thread
...
OP BTFO.
The universe can not operate itself without a divine being. Can a factory operate itself without people being there? No.
Hempel's raven.
The burden of proof lies on anyone who makes a claim to knowledge
Theists say God exists
Atheists say God does not exist
Both of these are claims to knowledge, therefore requiring evidence or proof
Agnostics on the other hand simply say that they don't know, so they don't have that burden.
Lol evil actually proves the existence of God, because without God, objective good and evil as such would not even exist so you couldn't even define them
Nihilist atheist here.
I can't prove god doesn't exist.
>the universe
>divine being
>a factory
>people in a factory
A divine being =/= people
You fucked your own analogy.
Who here does believe in god?
I am not asking for the purpose of starting up an argument.
Prove God exists
>checkmate nigger
Man created God.The Creator created Man.
I do, what's up?
Neither good nor evil exist. Do you think that Hitler's troops knew they were doing evil deeds? No, they throught they were doing good for their people. Good and evil are based on your viewpoint of the situation. Usually after the fact.
Also: god does not exist, please see: Dinosaurs. Evolution. Etc,etc.
This is along the vein of like, "Why doesn't god just pop by to prove he exists?" I know that the answer is generally that god wants us to have faith, and you believe faith is a good valuable thing to have on its own.
Let's say god appeared to everyone today, and let's say that everyone was sure that it wasn't a hoax, they knew it was really god they were looking at.
And he said, "I'm only doing this once, but here i am, i'm real."
Do you think that if god did that, it would ruin faith? Because like, for all people currently living, they don't feed faith, they've got proof, they've seen it with their own eyes.
But will we have lost something valuable in your opinion - faith?
Prove I'm not your biological father.
Prove Hitler did nothing right.
Prove that X didn't >Y<
Do you notice a pattern with having to prove negatives?
Singapore.
Want to fuck a little boy for $5? Singapore.
Want to fuck a little girl for $5? Singapore.
What to rape them both to death for $20 while tripping balls on hallucinogens and go home the next day scot free? Singapore.
Singpore proves god doesn't exist because if he did and he allows Singpaore to exist, he isn't god, he's the fucking devil.
but he's a damn good devil
k
Ya know, it is possible to prove a negative. It's just really hard. In some cases it is possibly impossible.
But for instance, "Prove that there isn't an elephant in the bathroom." You look in the bathroom. Elephant isn't in there.
Negative proved.
I'm not against the notion that we should avoid trying to prove a negative, it's just that i want to point out that it isn't really always impossible to prove a negative.
>
>Neither good nor evil exist. Do you think that Hitler's troops knew they were doing evil
>killing people
>not bad/evil
Your argument is stupid. Everyone has a sense or moral and hurting others is of the most basic
This is wrong. Good and evil aren't magical things that depend on God to exist. They're meaningful expressions in our language based on how they're used. (Wittgenstien "meaning is use" etc.) For example, it's a violation of moral rules to subject someone to arbitrary harm.
Now, whether or not there's a reason to actually behave morally (in accordance with moral rules) is a different question, but that doesn't mean good and bad require God to get their meaning.
See also the Euthyphro dilemma. Morality actually can't depend on God's will because it would rob morality of any meaning at all. God could wake up tomorrow and send all the sinners to heaven and the sinful to hell. That would be wrong on my view, but totally fine with you.
"My god is so powerful and omnipotent that he can create the entire universe and everything in it, but so stupid that he can't figure out how to make it work on without needing to flip a bunch of switches and turn a bunch of cranks to keep it from exploding"
I am a fan of the point that if god exists, we really shouldn't be worshiping him because he is either incompetent or evil.
When we look at a building we know that some people got together and made a concious effort to construct it. People who believe in God have the same way of thinking when looking at things in the natural world (plants, animals, our planet, the universe, etc.)
prove he/she does...
Like, i would even be willing to get on board with the belief that god DOES exist(even if i don't really believe it) if people were moving in the direction of - we shouldn't be giving this god guy any respect or listening to what he has to say because he's apparently an asshole.
>
Here's a sloppy unfinished draft paper I wrote about this stuff after a similar argument on Sup Forums.
First of all, you should know that God isn't interested in us simply believing that he exists, but that we give our life to him and worship him.
"You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!"
(James 2:19)
Second, it's not necessarily true that people will bow the knee to God if he showed himself in the sky. I would bet many would think it's obnoxious, and others would call it magic, or find some other explanation for it as we do all the time. Remember the story of the Israelites and Moses? Even after God delivered them from Egypt and did many miracles for them, as soon as Moses left up mount Sinai to get the ten commandments, they made themselves a golden calf and worshiped that!
God has made it evident that he exists, you can see it all around you, in you, and through science and common sense if you think about it (where did the universe come from, etc...). There's plenty of evidence if you look! Most importantly though, God can be experienced directly by you, if you seek him he will make himself known to you. God is not some abstract entity that we believe in, but rather our heavenly Father who wants to have a relationship with us. Religion won't help you here, you must repent and surrender to him, seek his kingdom and pray for his presence in your life, go to church and let born again Christians pray for you.
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
(Romans 1:19-20)
Lastly, God does miracles and heals people all the time. You can find plenty of videos like this on Youtube, hundreds of thousands of testimonies from people all over the world. Watch this video for one example:
No. What's the pattern?
Prove that my penis isn't 20inch
>angry micropenis
>can't disprove 20inch
Therefore, i have a 20inch penis and you are blind of you don't have faith in my almighty cock. You fill the missing inches in your life with god and 4chin but my cock guides us to the righteous path.
Thank you, brothers, May my cock guide you all. I welcome any micropenises to challange me but do so in a polite manner as I know you with small cocks are always filled with hatred and spread this to others like wildfire.
Morals are a social construct. Does hamsters have morals when they eat one of their babies? does bees create a union to have better work environment? Everything is relative.
>It's an invisible elephant with supernatural powers
You're not really answering my question. I am not kidding that i wasn't interested in starting up an argument. I'm asking for your opinion.
It is a premise of the question that people just DID believe that it really was god if i he sudden;y appeared and said, "Yes, i exist."
But then he goes away again. And you theoretically return to having to have faith that he's real.
But since everyone living today now has proof, would you say that at least for this generation of people, faith is ruined? Or can faith still exist when there is proof?
I didn't ask you to prove there is an invisible elephant in there.
Of course it would be much more difficult to prove an invisible elephant is inside of a room.
Based 20 inch brother
We cannot define objective moral values without God, because then we are left with subjective moral values, meaning that if Hitler had won WW2 and managed to brainwash or kill anyone who disagreed with him, then killing homosexuals and gypsies would become good.
Objective moral values are independent of human opinion.
Also the answer to the Euthyphro dilemma, which for those who don't know, is:
“Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?”
The answer is that morally good acts are neither independent of God, nor are the arbitrary based on whatever God wills, but rather they are good because God IS good.
In other words, God is the very paradigm of goodness itself, his nature is reflected upon us in the form of commandments and laws. They are not arbitrary nor independent of God.
If you're interested in the moral argument for God, watch this video:
youtube.com
IF you gonna believe in fairytales why not believe a more badass one like Odin or maybe Pazuzu? Pazuzu is pretty cool
Agnosticism Master race
I don't see your point. I believe you until I'm given reason not to.
Wow. Someone's bitter.
God created humans above these species.
You can't compare humans to insects, you fucking dip. Even if moral was a social construct it does not take away the fact good and evil exists
i can't decide if you should be praised for staying out of a fight that no one can win or mocked for your smug cowardice
But... muh logic!
I wanna believe in star trek. I like that universe.
I have a micro penis
I don't own a fedora, katana and like to keep well trimmed. Can I still believe in Odin?
...
The point is that your phrasing makes you a faggot no matter in what you believe.
Sure, but you really ought to own a fedora. Indiana jones fedora, not trilby. Trilby's are hideous.
Oh, so you're asking a hypothetical scenario where God decides to show himself to all mankind, and whether that would "ruin our faith"? Well no, I don't think it would, but I do think even if that did happen, many would still reject God
Faith isn't believing in something we know nothing about or cannot experience. The apostle Thomas didn't believe that Christ had risen, but believed when he saw Jesus, and Jesus told him:
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
(John 20:27-29)
It didn't ruin Thomas' faith when he saw the risen Christ.
>We cannot define objective moral values without God, because then we are left with subjective moral values, meaning that if Hitler had won WW2 and managed to brainwash or kill anyone who disagreed with him, then killing homosexuals and gypsies would become good.
Wrong.
>, but rather they are good because God IS good.
But you've already defined goodness in terms of God's will. This is the problem. By defining goodness in terms of God's nature we have no basis for determinations on what count's as good besides what God wants. But God could change his mind.
Okay thank you.
Hey, if you don't believe in the bathroom elephant that's your deal. I'm just trying to save your mortal soul, after all you only get 60 years of afterlife
I could have all the faith in the world that i can bang a hot chick, but it will not change the fact that i am a beta faggot cuck virgin living in my mum's basement.
>you can ever trust jews
Prove that a man walked on water
Prove that someone spoke through a burning bush
Prove that noah lived through a flood of the earth
Prove that a man lived a thousand years
Sorry friend but it's not the atheists who have the proof problem
Evil for one is good for another and vice versa. Nothing is absolute. Not even your tiny dick inside your mom's ass.
Faith is blind obedience to a fictional character.
>But God could change his mind.
If God wouldn't change his mind that would only be because he is necessarily good, which requires that we have a definition of goodness which lies outside of God's nature. We know God is good because goodness as meaning we can ascribe to God. Otherwise whatever God wants goes, and morality can depend on his arbitrary wishes.
I'm not actually presuming to argue God isn't good; just that we only know that because we have a perception of goodness and can appropriately ascribe it to God. God wouldn't send sinners to heaven and the good people to hell because that would be wrong, and God's being necessarily good means he refrains from doing that.
The fact that it's easy to demonstrate that a negative isn't impossible to prove doesn't really have bearing on the "is there a god" question.
Because we would have to look everywhere for him. And last i checked the universe was infinitely large, or finitely large but expanding all the time. That question IS an example of where it's possibly impossible to prove the negative.
I just wanted to point out that it isn't strictly true that proving a negative is always impossible.
>as meaning
*has meaning
Also, re the cultural relativism thing, you're presuming that we can't get objective morality in any other way. But that's a false presumption.
See
God is all powerful, thus he has the ability to set any reality he chooses and create whatever condition he wants. He makes a world with retards from the south, black people, muslims, and Sup Forums. Seems like a perfectly reasonable outcome to me.
>2015+1
>still not believing in God
Please do tell me how I'm wrong, not just that I'm wrong.
If you went to some cannibal tribe in the Amazonian forest and told them that eating people from other tribes is wrong, on what basis do you make that claim? The tribe leader can tell you "Well, in our culture, it is good. Who are you to tell us otherwise?"
In the absence of God, all that is left is relative morality, and might makes right.
>But you've already defined goodness in terms of God's will
God could will that you suffer, if he knows that your suffering will lead to you being saved, doesn't make suffering good.
God is loving, therefore we must love, God is kind, therefore we must be kind, God is merciful, therefore we must be merciful. It is his nature, and since we are made in his image, that law of God is written on our hearts, which is why we are able to recognize objective good and evil even though we give lip service to subjective morality.
No problem!
And those who call it magic would be correct in that observation, as Theurgy is still a branch of magic.
"You can't use my argument to prove that your religion, I'm already using it to prove mine"
No, faith is trusting in something which you have good reason to believe is true
I actually do understand the devoutly religious viewpoint. It's a fascinating viewpoint. Scary almost. But one i opt out of.
The idea is basically that it is a PREMISE that god is perfect and the universe makes sense. And it's just that humans are too simple to understand it. Like a 2D creature trying to understand a 3D universe. It's beyond our ability to comprehend.
Thus everything that doesn't seem to make sense, does make sense on the divine level of thinking. And we're just supposed to do what god says, because he can see the 3D picture.
Spooky thinking like that, isn't it?
>evil for one is a good for another
There is evil being committed. Just because someone may benefit from the act does not classify it as an act of good, it's a spillover benefit.
You just disproved your original statement of
>Neither good nor evil exists
Thanks.
God is omnipotent
That means he is able of doing anything.
There are impossible oximorons.
By knowledge a priori, its impossible to be omnipotent.
God doesnt exist
QED
God performs miracles, which are miracles because they do not normally happen in nature, such as the virgin birth or the resurrection of Christ, or anyone who gets healed today by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Magic is the work of the devil and his demons, occultism and whatnot. Be sober and watch out for deceiving spirits.
We're all wizards
Never ending story
Ahahah ahahah ahahah...
Never ending story
Ahahah ahahah ahahah...
Never ending story
Ahahah ahahah ahahah...
This is obviously the truth, indestructible logic!
But, nah. Read a book not preached to capture sheeple in an imaginary divine though-prison please.
>If you went to some cannibal tribe in the Amazonian forest and told them that eating people from other tribes is wrong, on what basis do you make that claim? The tribe leader can tell you "Well, in our culture, it is good. Who are you to tell us otherwise?"
No, he'd need a better explanation. If he has a conscience, then he will agree that it's wrong to deliberately harm someone without a reason, where such a reason has to relate to avoiding/denouncing/punishing/deterring some harm (or maybe gaining some benefit).
The explanation he'd have to offer is something like, "These people are inferior and we absorb magic strength through them and if we don't eat them the tree and rock gods will destroy the world." The claim that something is good or right has to have something to do with what benefits and harms to human beings (maybe animals and aliens too but that's a different question). If he doesn't have such an explanation then they're just hurting people for no reason, so we can say he's mistaken. He's doing something wrong.
We can also determine that his explanation is false, because people they eat aren't actually inferior and there is no such thing as magic strength to be gained or tree gods. So their explanation for why it's permissible is mistaken. It's empirically indictable.
You're of course an authority on this, even though contemporary theists and philosophers still incline towards the non-existence of objective values. Educate yourself and don't just talk out of your ass.
>God could will that you suffer, if he knows that your suffering will lead to you being saved, doesn't make suffering good.
It makes it instrumentally good, yes. Not intrinsically. Suffering is bad because it represents a harm.
>God is loving, therefore we must love, God is kind, therefore we must be kind, God
Now you're just substituting an independent definition of love for an independent definition of goodness. You're making the same mistake you're accusing me of.
Exactly, from a evolution point of view religion or faith is part of human nature, it's just another mechanism to keep us going. doesn't make what it claims more true but is a really interesting subject when studied from a distance. The part of the brain that religion use is associated with the part that childs use to learn basic survival skills. like your dad telling you not to go swim in a crocodile infested river. You don't question it. it just make sense in your head. same for religious people.
Did you check in the drain trap of the sink? Elephants love hiding there.
Faggot
he's right we're all the sons of monkeys. If you want to visit your grandmother just go to the zoo, you'll find her and your aunt who's a dinosaur!
NEVER ENDING STOREEEEEEEEEH NANANANANANANANANA!
IT'S THE MICRO MAGIC ELEPHANT OF THE SINK. BOW DOWN TO YOUR MASTER!
>philosophers still incline towards the non-existence of objective values
Most philosophers actually think you can get something like a thin version of objective morality, though they tend to be cagey about why. My view is just that it's Wittgensteinian; the use of moral terms is tied up and associated with what benefits and harms human beings, meaning is use (Wittgenstein), and so the meanings of those terms relate to what benefits and harms human beings as well. This doesn't run afoul of the naturalistic fallacy because it says nothing about why we *should* be moral (that's a tougher issue), but it does mean that if you want to be a good person in the sense of the usual use and definition of the term, you have to refrain from deliberately harming people for no reason (for example).
Faith is a powerful psychological tool.
It can be used to not lose your mind in times of distress.
It can force you to go through hardships that otherwise would have put you into despair.
It can be used to manipulate you and to manipulate others.
It can be the cause for mental illness or play a great part in it.
The question if a god really exists isn't really that interesting. The question should be if the tool of faith would make a positive or negative impact on your life and mental health if you use it.
Of course the answer to this question is different from person to person.
But as long as there is no proof everybody can adapt his faith to his current situation. Not being certain if god exists is the only thing that keeps making it work.
If there was a certain answer to the god dilemma, the tool of faith would lose its flexibility and therefore its capability to connect with millions of people.
you guys all make very valid points however have you ever tried autism x2?
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Assume there is a God: Where did God come from? Recursion problem without resolution.
Assume there is not a God: Where did the Big Bang come from? Recursion problem without resolution.
Religious beliefs - theist and atheist - are simply infinite loops that people get stuck in, then when their brain resets out of it they spout stupid shit, but the question itself can be avoided.
I'm an agnostic. Maybe there's a god, maybe there isn't - so I'm going to enjoy my life, be as good to others as I can, and try to leave this little pebble of the Universe in a state where other life forms can come and go and have their own little lives as well.
After I die, it will be the big reveal. Maybe I will meet God. Maybe I will be born back into this universe. Maybe I will become a ghost that can see everything in this universe. Maybe I will be born into a different universe. Maybe I'll just end up in hyperprison for murder of all the spiders I encountered in my life. But, at the end of my life, I will have a fascinating unknown waiting for me. I don't need anyone to ruin it for me by forcing an "expectation" as to what lies beyond.
Actually, sometimes I wonder if I will ever die... if death is only for other people. I have a universe I will live in forever, and all you people will "die" out of my universe - and I will "die" out of yours - but in each of our own universes, we will live on forever.
Gotta suck, though, to try and commit suicide by jumping off a 100-story building and to survive that impact but have every bone broken such that you now live your life as a puddle that doesn't eat but can't die.
Which god?
>If he has a conscience, then he will agree that it's wrong to deliberately harm someone without a reason
Says who? You see, you're agreeing that objective moral values exist, but in your worldview they are hanging in the middle of the air
You might not like being harmed, others like to electrocute themselves for sexual gratification, others find great joy in harming their enemies (ISIS?), but who decides whether any of these actions are morally good or not?
None of us think that killing non-Muslims is right, but ISIS clearly do, so on what basis do we say they're wrong? They're humans just like we are, what makes our opinion superior to theirs?
You cannot define good and evil by pleasure and pain, those are completely different things, we are talking about the ontology of morals here. Falling down the stairs isn't evil, even though it causes you pain.
Actually most of them believe in the reality of objective morality, even many Atheists do... I'm not an authority on this, but William Lane Craig certainly is :)
I don't think so, in fact pain itself can be very good. Imagine if you couldn't feel any pain? You could bleed to death without having any idea about it.
God's nature is what defines our moral values, not his will. He willed that Sodom and Gomorrah is destroyed, but that doesn't mean it's a commandment for us to destroy depraved nations.
I'm not a philosopher so don't expect much from me, but if you're really interested, I highly recommend looking into the material of William Lane Craig about this. Here's one video you could watch: youtube.com
>Assume there is a God: Where did God come from? Recursion problem without resolution.
>Assume there is not a God: Where did the Big Bang come from? Recursion problem without resolution.
No exactly. In either case there's no such thing as a time before the universe, since time is a feature of the observable universe. So the universe isn't infinitely old, but there was no time before it. That means our usual conceptions of cause and effect (which are temporal) are all fucky with respect to the initiation of the universe. It doesn't need a "cause" in the usual sense, though the question of why there's something instead of nothing still (I presume) invites some kind of explanation. Though maybe it's beyond our monkey brains to even approach the problem in a meaningful way. Shit's weird.
which god?
given the number of gods that have ever been worshipped, there is an almost 100% chance the the god you claim exists is not the same god you beleive in.
so if you are right, you are as fucked as any atheist.
in fact beleivers of other gods are often treated worse by religions that non-beleivers.
Still, people that are actually gifted thinkers, among the biggest in our world, disagree on wether objective good or evil values exist. I don't say you can't have an opinion on it, but you need to read some philosophy, etc. that isn't the Bible.
Actually there is no recursion problem, because God is the "first uncaused cause". If what you said is true, then all science would break down and nothing could ever be explained!
The first premise for the argument for the cause of the universe is:
"Whatever BEGINS to exist, requires a cause"
Science proves that the universe began to exist billions of years ago in the big bang.
>Prove Santa Claus doesn't exist
>angry grinch
>can't disprove Santa
>Therefore, there is Santa and you are blind if you don't have faith in the almighty deity. You fill the void in your life from drugs, sex and 4chin but with faith Santa guides us to the righteous path.
>Thank you, brothers. May Santa guide you all. I welcome any grinch to challenge me but do so in a polite manner as I know you grinches are always filled with hatred and spread this to others like wildfire
...
just because we dont know what caused the big bang doesnt mean it can automatically be attributed to a god.
also, learn about quantum fluctautions and youll realise that "whatever begins requires a cause" is just wrong