What are the historical reasons for Spain being kind of "meh" when compared to other western countries like France, UK, Germany?
It doesn't do anything significant these days or have any real power, and the HDI is very unimpressive. So where did it all go so mildly bad?
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history of spain for the last 1000 years
>be cucked by muslims
>be cucked by poortugal + uk
>cuck native americans
>be cucked by napoleon
>be cucked back by native american rape babies
>be cucked by USA
>be cucked by itself
For the last 200 years or so they haven't earned or won a single thing, and just keep losing and losing and losing. Not even poland has been so incompetent.
we need a tito vlad :c
And yet their economy is better than yours, despite not having oil and gas bucks
Lots of history behind it
But their politics is pretty fucked up.
They had a dictator from like the 1930s to the 1970s iirc. And ever since then their politics has been ridiculous and filled with division and separation movements
when other nations like Britain had their industrial revolutions, Spain remained stagnant
welcome to Sup Forums where every retard can say anything and promote fake/stupid/hate ideas.
In reality, Spain is not really as bad as peoples say. I would say the apposite, and is a different type of lifestyle. If you like 24/7 gogo style, go to some industrial zones in Germany, if you like to actually live your life, go to Spain. Just an example to figure out you some differences. Peoples tens to see everything from money perspective, get rid of that and you gonna see a whole new world.
PS. I've lived in Spain a few years, I think I know what I am saying.
Well, first of all Spain gets underrated pretty consistently compared to other countries (we've had a bad reputation ever since we got on the Protestants' wrong side) but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
In any event, it's hard to pin down what led Spain to being the way it is nowadays; most people will point to hyperinflation caused by the massive entry of bullion from the Americas during the 16th and 17th centuries, which certainly had an effect on crippling Spain's economy since it essentially became a "middleman country": Seville became one of the most important trade ports in the world at the time, but it quickly became dominated by foreign merchants who used it as a way to siphon gold and goods to and away from their countries.
However, those who espouse this theory tend to forget that the 18th century was, overall, a very positive one when it comes to reforms, and Spain was steadily regaining her former power (reforming the convoy system, reforming the navy, establishing Royal Manufacturies -- the ancestors of modern factories). Under Charles III Spain was a serious contender in European politics once again and the empire in the Americas reached its greatest proportions.
And then, Napoleon happened.
Now I'm not going to go into details here, but the Napoleonic Wars had a twofold impact on Spain:
- Firstly, the country was looted and devastated by both sides. Merino sheep almost went extinct due to armies living off the land and eating them all. The French tried to steal every single thing that was not nailed to the floor and left a trail of murder and destruction, and our British """allies""" made sure to destroy any industries that were competing with their own (destruction of the Béjar textile factories, destruction of the Royal Porcelain Manufactury, burning of San Sebastián...) so that, by the end of the war, Spain was in a sorry state.
(continued)
>PS. I've lived in Spain a few years
You know a country is on its deathbed when Romanians are leaving. Like dirty rats fleeing a sinking ship.
Eternal bozgor entering in arena. Well, you are wrong, because I will back to Spain this year with my business, so you have no idea what are you talking about.
well said m8 i hope you liked it here
(continues from above)
- Secondly, the Napoleonic Wars sparked a century and a half of infighting between two factions which had been nominally at peace with each other until then: the liberals and the absolutists. These two tendencies, which had been united under the "Enlightened Absolutism" of Charles III, found themselves at odds as the liberals were associated with the French and their revolutionary ideas (and one of the worst things you could be called in the 19th century, after the atrocities of the Napoleonic wars, was an "afrancesado") whereas the absolutists were associated with backwardness, the Church and the big landowners.
Fernando VII, who was an avowed absolutist most of his life and who had tried to keep the lid on liberalism, changed his mind towards the end of his life and, in an unexpected move, abolished the Salic law and named his daughter as heir. Fernando's brother, Carlos María Isidro, who had been expecting to inherit the throne and had surrounded himself with a faction of reactionaries and priests, wouldn't stand for it; this led to a crisis of succession that resulted in the three Carlist Wars.
However, as the 19th century went on, the Carlist - Isabelino conflict became less concerned with lineages and more with ideologies, becoming an irreconciliable feud between conservatives and liberals. Thus it is often argued that even though the stakes had changed, the Spanish Civil War was the last manifestation of this century and a half of infighting.
>romanian gypsy living in spain
Can't make this shit up, Jorges.
You ever meet any Romanian from Romania? Not the junk tier? I can say the same shit about your junk and trash tier peoples. But hey, you want to look smart, I get it..
>Under Charles III Spain was a serious contender in European politics
It wa before Charles the III.Phillip the V and Ferdinand the VI were arguably better rulers and did more important reforms.Charles the III inherited a solid kingdom and his son Charles the IV kind of ruined it
>I will back to Spain this year with my business
Robbing people, human trafficking and extortion is not a business, it's the Mafia.
>perspective
desu the most noticable Romanians in Spain are gyppos as they are always in the streets getting drunk while the rest just mind their own bussines and work in construction
They cucked indians out of an enormous amount of gold and never actually had communism.
how many people did you pickpocket from in those years?
The gold from America was never the main source of income.The galleon of Manila turned a higher profit than all the gold that came from Perú and México combined.
we were close though, we dodged communism but it cost a civil war and 50 years of dictatorship. and we have fucking socialism now
Finally, when it comes to the economic side of things, it all stems in the 19th century and can be summed up as follows:
- Spain is underpopulated for its size. It was even more so after the Napoleonic wars, which had left the country desolate. The fact that there was plenty of land to go around didn't lead to the demographic pressure that created an urban proletariat (landless farmers migrating to the cities), which in turn provided the necessary workforce for factories.
- Lands in Spain were poorly spread out, especially in the south. There were few smallholders and most lands were large operations which tended to be less efficient than smallholdings, and the Church also owned many lands it didn't really use. There were several attempts at confiscation (desamortización) to give those lands to people who would work them, but they met with mixed success.
- There was a large investment in railways but it was met with two obstacles: laying track in Spain was very expensive, as it is a very mountainous country, and there was not enough demand for rail transport, which meant that the investments did not provide good returns.
- A lack of political stability during the 19th century made attracting foreign investments difficult and there weren't all that many capitalists in Spain willing to invest their money instead of hoarding it.
Other than that, Spain did industrialize, albeit slowly and timidly, and it did a better job at recovering lost ground from the Restoration (1875) onwards, though it was firmly set in the 2nd tier of European nations.
Yup, I lived in Brasov for a year because my work forced me to. Gypsies everywhere.
>it cost a civil war and 50 years of dictatorship
Still better than a civil war and 70 years of commie dictatorship.
Not my problem that you can't afford a decent rent.
A way more interesting response than I was expecting, thank you
Not a shitpost nice
>ywn volunteer in the international brigades and slaughter carlist scum
I agree that Phillip V laid the grounds for Charles III's Spain, but I believe he was the one who made the country's "triumphant return" to the international stage, with participation in the 7 years' war, support for the American revolution, and a number of prestige projects (reforming Madrid, scientific endeavors, construction initiatives...) which put us back into the spotlight.
But yeah, then Carlos IV and Fernando VII came along, and the rest is history. I still think that if the first Bourbons' legacy had not been shattered by Napoleon, Spain would have been on the right track to face up to the 19th century.
>>ywn volunteer in the international brigades and slaughter carlist scum
Carlist were way more ambitious than liberals on general and were trying to create kind of a socialist autarchy which is closer to the modern left than anything else
Mac-Paps stronk
Leafs were some of the best assets in the International Brigades.
>I agree that Phillip V laid the grounds for Charles III's Spain, but I believe he was the one who made the country's "triumphant return" to the international stage
Phillip the V was very ambitious internationally with his campaigns in Itally and against the Ottomans to had a bigger hold in the Mediterranean.
> with participation in the 7 years' war
It was a fiasco as Charles entered the war when the army wasn't mobilized and the navy was scattered.,
>support for the American revolution
Agree
> and a number of prestige projects (reforming Madrid, scientific endeavors, construction initiatives...) which put us back into the spotlight.
Kind of true but you have to remember that most of Charle's reforms were just continuations of Ferdinand the VI reforms.Which stabilized the economy, reformed the navy and the army and brought a period of great prosperity through neutrality
>But yeah, then Carlos IV and Fernando VII came along, and the rest is history. I still think that if the first Bourbons' legacy had not been shattered by Napoleon
Yeap.Spain had a lot of production until the Brittish came and the colonies could have been maintained a lot longer making Spain one of the biggest markets of raw materials in all of Europe >Spain would have been on the right track to face up to the 19th century.
It was I would say.The Borbons prior to Charles the IV were quite ahead of their times and saw the importance of manufacturing and the colonial empire.The country was more prepared than countries like France or Austria for the industrial revolution and one of the most advanced fiscal systems in the world making Spanish debt have lower interest than French or Brittish debt.
>pretending there aren't gypsies everywhere in Romania
There is a reason your country is a third world hellhole. Your tendency to lie and falsify facts is one of them. That, and you're virtually indistinguishable from gypsies is the other.
Just look at your government, trying to legalize theft. Only in Romania.
Boring people
Boring country
Sup Forums education, ok, your really know how world is, congratz.
a romanian meter is half a meter if the romanian pays, and 1.5 meters if you pay
thats actually a saying here kek
...
>United Kingdom
neither will ever secede just saying
cucks
and i love catalunya too but its ours too not just the catalans'
es.m.wikipedia.org
¿Qué tanto habría cambiado si Fernando VII hubiese la hubiese aceptado y las colonias no se hubiesen separado?
Boring and typical reply
>implying we want to secede
Pay up piggies
well you never know, spain and the world could be completely different than they are
>Pay up piggies
you meant denbts?
we're paying up and recovering from the housing bubble, look it up
Casi nada, los movimientos de independencia surgieron más que nada porque los virreinatos estuvieron desmandados durante la ocupación napoleónica y se desarrollaron más como una guerra civil dentro de los propios virreinatos que un conflicto entre las colonias y la metrópoli.
No it's a /brit/ meme of some whore that financially dominates losers online. Similar to how Quebec treats the rest of Canada with its billions of free money
>¿Qué tanto habría cambiado si Fernando VII hubiese la hubiese aceptado?
El parlamentarismo nunca funcionó bien aquí.Yo creo que Jovellanos tenía razón pero bueno
>y las colonias no se hubiesen separado?
Bastante.Latino America se hubiera convertido en el principal proveedor de materias primas del mundo.Con un poco de proteccionismo la industria hubiera florecido y a lo mejor gran parte de la inmigración europea hubiese ido a Mexico,Colombia y Argentina.EEUU no hubiese podido expandirse más allá de Luisiana y nunca hubiera tenido un puerto en el Pacífico
kek
> financial femdom
Is this the final form of modern capitalism?
We literally have the same GDP as Russia and Australia with our little landmass and population and complete lack of natural resources and you are talking all almighty, fuck off.
Also, let's forget that time when the Spanish Tercios dominated the European battlefields for like 150 years, defeating Frenchies, Brits, Dutchs, Germans, Italians, Bohemians and even Swedes, and stopping the Ottomans at Lepanto. Yes, we can only fight against primitive savages meme amirite?
We had 20 years of international embargo and dumbass "national-syndicalists" who in the practice were a bunch of socialsts. Also, all our infrastructure was completely destroyed by the Civil War and all our gold reserves were depleted and send to Moscow by the "Republican" commies. Germany, France, etc... All had a Marshall Plan to help their "miraculous recovery", meanwhile Spain was starving because we were internationally blocked and only the Peronist Argentina ignored it to send us some fucking cow meat. You talk like we had it easy, but the Eastern Block wasn't that bad when it ruled half planet, it was highly industrialized and relatively prosperous until the late 70's.
Actually I've been to Romania. It was startling how the further we got from the Hungarian border, the worse everything had gotten. The roads were cracked and full of holes, houses looked like they were ready to fall over, but here and there were these...castles for lack of a better word. Like 4-5 stories high, usually only half done. Or their garden looked like a wasteland.
Where Hungarians lived it looked pretty much okay, but there were neighborhoods you wouldn't want to get caught when the night falls.
Overall it was a pleasant experience, since I didn't have to stay and live there, but seriously, Romania is very ominous and nefarious looking. Also, everything had Romanian flags on it. Buildings. Statues, everything. I can't even begin to imagine how insecure you must be.
In a way I kind of pity you.
what's wrong with portugal?
i never knew they were poor, i always assumed its basically like another region of spain
Portugal suffered from a similar fate with the loss of their colonies and their protectionist and in the practice anti-capitalistic Estado Novo, they had a very synergistic and mercantilistic relationship with the colonies, when they lost them their economy crumbled.
>los movimientos de independencia surgieron más que nada porque los virreinatos estuvieron desmandados durante la ocupación napoleónica
Y la burguesía de la época lo vió como una buena oportunidad de agitar a las masas y ponerlos en contra de la corona para así ellos quedarse con todo el pastel.
Pero más que independencia como tal yo diría que con suficiente autonomía (que la constitución de 1812 les daba) habrían quedado contentos.
>se desarrollaron más como una guerra civil dentro de los propios virreinatos que un conflicto entre las colonias y la metrópoli
Pues si, pero las guerras civiles sucedieron después de que expulsaron (o creyeron haberlo hecho: véase la reconquista) a los españoles y todos los honestos caballeros criollos se repartieron pacíficamente las riquezas de sus tierras.
A fin de cuentas pienso que la independencia no le hizo en verdad bien a nadie. Simplemente conllevó a que todas las desigualdades, corrupción y tiranía de la que tanto acusaban a la corona pasaran a ser hechas 100% a manos de los propios gobernantes locales.
>EEUU no hubiese podido expandirse más allá de Luisiana y nunca hubiera tenido un puerto en el Pacífico
Pic related
>destruction of the Béjar textile factories, destruction of the Royal Porcelain Manufactury, burning of San Sebastián...)
the eternal anglo strikes back.
>our British """allies""" made sure to destroy any industries that were competing with their own
My ancestors are smilling at me, Spaniard. Can you say the same?
THE best part, this whore calls herself a Marxist
You and the Portuguese also masacred the entire town of Badajoz, virtually genoiciding all the unarmed civil Spanish population after you conquered it from the French garrison. Yet we have to see many MODERN British historians, with that typical smugness and delusions of grandeur, literally justifying this brutality.
Thanks for the "help" against Napoleon, Anglo.
The Napoleonic Wars in Spain were a golden opportunity for Britain and Portugal to kill two birds with one stone. First they stopped the Napoleonic advance, then by doing that in Iberia they were in position to ruin Spain (more so than what the Fench did) and send it to the stone age so it would need decades to recover from so much destruction, virtually eliminating one important actor and competitor from the European geopolitical scenary.
You and your French allies were aggressors into Europe and rightful Portuguese territory. You were happy looting Portugal until the French backstabbed you, as they always will.
Be grateful you still have your language and nation.
High quality post pablo
>rightful Portuguese territory
No such thing
>Be grateful you still have your language and nation.
>Implying that Britain can occupy land that is not backwards and full of niggers with stone spears
es mejor tener mala reputación, asi no vienen aqui, joder es que no pensáis con el coco
What the hell are you talking about, retard.
Spaniards were betrayed by all sides and we were fighting Napoleon since the very beginning.
I swear to God that diaspora Anglos are much worse than modern Brits in their agressive ignorance towards other peoples.
>I will back to Spain this year with my business
what business,
Eternal Anglo literally stole all their colonies a hundred years ago.
and gabachos
Franco
...
>No it's a /brit/ meme of some whore that financially dominates losers online
There are hundreds, if not thousands of these. It's hilarious that this actually exists, depressing at the same time.
Thanks Nederbro, I'm feeling autistic today, so feel free to ask if you need any further info dumps.
>but the Eastern Block wasn't that bad when it ruled half planet, it was highly industrialized and relatively prosperous until the late 70's
It was bad and we didn't have any Marshall plan either. The early 50s/late 40s were brutal in all of Eastern Europe, with Stalin having a free reign. Imprisonment, trials and death sentences all around.
As for highly industrialized, yeah, it was. But half of it was weapons manufacture, everything was hard to come by during commie times, you waited for 5 years for a car or an apartment. Consumer goods? Shitty quality and everyone wanted Western stuff. Sure, after a while, there wasn't any danger of famine anymore and it sort of settled into a grey shitty boredom in which you pretended to work and the state pretended to pay you.
Communism fucked people up. It tore up institutions that took centuries to build like personal responsibility and self-reliance. It drove smart people out of the country, it stymied the potential for those who could've been great and it ensured that our first line of enterpreneurs is full of crooks, one currently presiding over the finances.
I'm not saying you had it good but communism is plague that only a few in the West can imagine and you got rid of the dictator in 1975, 15 years before the Eastern block.
>THE best part, this whore calls herself a Marxist
Link? That's fucking hilarious.
Yeah these posts are pretty nice, gracias spenhermano
sad but true
Can we compare Spain with France or UK? They always had twice our population.