So the transporter beam totally kills you, right?
What comes through on the other side is some kind of weird clone thing that's "born" with the memories of the person who was originally sent through, right?
I don't understand how it could be any other way.
Well it's a "transporter", so judging by name it does not. We don't know how it works exactly.
But yeah if teleportation meant simply copying yourself at another location, it would mean death for the original, but copy wouldn't know it, would it?
>"This is why I wouldn't travel that way," Dane said. "Ths is my point. For a piece of rock or clothes or something dead, who cares? But take something living and do that? Beam it up? What you done is ripped a man apart and then stuck his bits back together and made them walk around. He died. Get me? The man's dead. And the man at the other end only thinks he's the same man. He ain't. He only just got born. He's got the other's memories, yeah, but he's newborn. That Enterprise, they keep killing themselves and replacing themselves with clones of dead people. That is some macabre shit. That ship's full of Xerox copies of people who died."
Yes, essentially. It takes you apart molecule by molecule, beams that matter to the ship/planet/whatever, and reassembles you there.
It really isn't that big a deal. The beamed version is closer to the you that left than you would be after a nights sleep.
But the original consciousness ends, right?
You step onto the pad, they flip the switch, and then it's lights out. Sure, the copy remembers all that happening but the "original" just ceases to exist.
Why wouldn't your conscience travel with your molecules? Especially if it's perfectly reassembled again afterwards? It should snap back no?
Yeah, they die. But they die so an exact replica (with the same molecules even) can get somewhere quick and go on in their stead. Just man up and transport, it's what Miles O'Brian would do.
Your consciousness is just electrical activity in your brain.
If the physical brain is broken down, how does the consciousness persist?
Why don't they just copy and paste instead of cut and paste?
Because of the technobabble equivalent of not enough RAM.
Its an interesting thought, but you don't need to go to of sci-fi to find an occurrence of something similar. The body naturally replaces all of its cells every few months, so really you're not the same person 'physically' as you were not so long ago. Its an old philosophical paradox - en.wikipedia.org
Instantaneous replication isn't really the same thing as a slow replacement
No, it does not. That is the retarded normie niel degrasse tyson interpretation of it based on "muh quan-tum sci-ence".
It's been CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN that, within the universe of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the transporter does not actually "kill" anyone, rather their "soul" or consciousness or whatever you want to call it persists throughout the transport process.
thomas riker
Yes and? Oh, you don't have any further argument? That's the sum of your point? Gee, too bad you didn't watch the actual episode.
you are dumb
"YOU" don't exist.
What you consider life or self are human words to describe nonexistent things.
People blab on about stream or continuity of consciousness, but it doesn't mean anything. If one of you got copied, for one moment you are the same, but then are two completely different people in the next.
The person you were one second ago is not "you." You die every second.
What does it matter when inevitably everything is replaced?
Hint, OP: your theory is a good one. However, per this guy , Star Trek is just a little bit too optimistic to seriously entertain the concept for more than an establishing episode or two. They "transport" around like they're using an elevator, without a second thought. It's implied that they've thought this through (and like this guy is suggesting, I bet they put this idea to bed in some episode somewhere, because Star Trek doesn't want to actually focus on the science of teleportation itself. It's just part of the signature toolkit of the show, one of the bits for which we are supposed to suspend disbelief and not be too critical).
If you want to seriously explore this idea (teleportation actually kills its subject in favor of a 1-1 reassembled clone), watch the Fly movies and read/watch what you can about their behind-the-scenes stuff. Cronenberg et al wanted to focus on teleportation itself, what it means to teleport, and they spent important time throughout their creative process thinking it through. And since it's Cronenberg (the subject matter is a bit darker, edgier, not so family friendly), they allow themselves to entertain the unpleasant-but-sexy conclusion: Seth Brundle was dead the moment he disappeared from telepod A, the first time.
you are conscious the whole time
>Your consciousness is just electrical activity in your brain
According to what? Your ass?
what else could it be
Very short answer is that Star Trek transporters don't just reassemble your bits somewhere else, your entire QUANTUM STATE is made to "occur" somewhere else.
At any given time there is only a "probability" of you being where you are now. At a subatomic level, you're a cloud of probabilities. The electrons of the atoms of your body are only "likely" to be within a certain range of space.
It could be said the continuity of this quantum state is what constitutes a "soul" in scientific terms.
That's why its not possible to store people as patterns and reassemble at will BTW. The information required to describe the entire quantum state of, say, a man, cannot conceivably be stored by any computer, only sent - a bit like how we were able to send radio signals before we mastered storage technology like vinyl records
No. You get separated on a quantum level so that you could be transported at ultra-high speed. The entanglement keeps you whole in other unperceived dimensions so that you don't die while being disassembled.
I remember and old officer/diplomat/admiral/whatever from TNG who refused to use a transporter and would only travel with those small ships.
Because then there would be two of you, and one would just think it didn't work
>But the original consciousness ends, right?
The mind is the brain.
What's the difference between having your atoms rearranged and standing still whilst moving through time?
Nothing, you're just as dead every second of your life. You only ever experience a "moment" before eternal death. There is no such thing as life.
Is there examples of the transporter duplicating persons and their "souls"?
If that's the case then yes it is just a fancy xerox machine and shredder.
Fucking thissss
...
Sounds edgy, but this. We have this idea of consciousness as though it's more than just a process of physical events in our brain but really it isn't. Asking this question as though there is a single absolute "you" is flawed.
how come transporters can recreate living things but replicators can't?
The amount of information necessary is too much, and the replicator only needs to copy a physical state whereas the transporter needs to copy states of electrical signals.
This only matters if you believe in a soul. The persistence of consciousness can be considered an illusion, and everyone has "died" already.
So you don't believe in free will?
Of course not. Free will as a concept is like a soul, what does it do? What does it mean? Nothing of course, it's just something to comfort people.
Nope. I don't honestly see how it's even possible that free will exists.
A better question is why they don't save people's pattern and just beam out a new one in case of illness, injury, or death.
Also, they once literally beamed the age out of several Enterprise personnel. They stepped off the pad as children, with no (other) ill effects, and who retained all their adult memories. Why the hell did no one ever notice that this was a key to immortality?!
Right, I'm sure you live you life in a way that reflects your lack of a belief in free will you hypocritical faggot
I'm hypocritical, sure, and I realize that. Humans are made to believe in free will implicitly and trying to live in a way that doesn't believe that is nearly impossible. I'm going to keep acting like I have free will so I don't go insane even if I realize rationally that it's a lie.
yes
i say things like this and people just look at me
Patterns are not reproducible. The pattern buffers can, at most, store some information about the person's basic "shape" and be used to repair damage in unusual circumstances, but they can't duplicate a person entirely, excluding one extremely fringe case that had more to do with a planet's unique properties than the transporter itself.
So you're choosing to pretend to believe in it then. Oh wait, you mean causal factors determined that you would pretend to believe in a lack of causal factors determining your actions. Or are you choosing to believe that causal factors determine that you would pretend to believe in a lack of causal factors determining your actions? Yea, real fucking rational.
The fact is pain is real, and existential horror very unpleasant, so ignoring all this to pretend like we're not soulless machines and enjoy our lives makes sense, just don't ask a question you don't want to know the answer to
I always took it as, the mind is a complex thing with "levels" of understanding. You are free in a sense, in that you can imagine yourself as anything or doing anything, but when it comes to actually acting, you are limited to one kind of action. You act as you must in every moment, but the mind has a way of framing action as choice, when there is in reality, in the depth of your being, no choice to be made. So I can say "I am off work, I can goto the beach, I can go climb a mountain, I can go to the bar and fuck a dime, I can fly like superman, I can jack off and cum a gallon, I can shit out a diamond" but in the end you just end up doing what you always do, going home, watching tv eating and going to bed and getting up the next day to work. So free will as a concept is nothing more than an ideal that makes you think you are in control, imposed by one level of the mind. But you are more than that, you can analyze your own thought and turn inward and gain some measure of understanding about such concepts, but we cannot escape them. In the end we are chained, though we dont see the chains.
transporter talk is some boring ass shit
>it's a Troi mindrape episode
Think about it this way, the transporter works in a way such that the moment you are scanned, decomposed, and reconstituted is such an infinitely short amount of time (in theory) that when "you" arrive at the other end of the transporter there is essentially no difference.
The reason this isn't really a clone is made more apparent if you think about what happens as you live normally on a day to day basis. Right now you are a different person than who you were a moment ago. This is because we are always changing on a molecular, atomic, subatomic, and quantum scale. The reason you don't notice this change is because it happens at such a rate that it is fundamentally as if you never changed at all.
If you keep in mind the fact that you are changing all the time, moment to moment, and when you consider whether or not the transporter kills you to make a clone, you realize that these are the same questions about what constitutes "you."
Basically, the perception of yourself is basically just part of your brain function used to combine all of your perception into a linear experience. Who "you" are is constantly changing and the brain patches different moments of "self" together to give the illusion of a permanent sense of "I."
Read this guys. Very interesting
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>>it's a Troi mindrape episode
she was kind of asking for it
I mean she was feeling my fucking pain without asking permission - I thought she just liked it a little rough
maybe im stupid
is this similar to what you think?
I'm choosing to go with the irrational biological instinct to believe in free will that allows us to survive so well.
Ship of Thesius etc.
They have stored people in the pattern buffers many times.
nigga you wise
wish we knew eachother irl so i could learn more
Yes. This is how Tuvix was born.
What about the episode where Scotty was stored in a transporter buffer for 80 years? That episode also had the most underwhelming use of a Dyson sphere possible, which sucks since that is Ubertech beyond the capacity of the federation.
It happens so fast that you don't have enough time to die.
I won't pretend to understand physics or this kind of science because I don't at all, but I really don't get this 'clone' concept. Since it's called a 'transporter', it's literally just moving matter from one part of space to another by disassembling, right? Where does cloning come in? Isn't it all the original blocks of matter just coming back together again?
(1) you died in the process of being taken apart
(2) the individual pieces are not important: all atoms are perfectly identical, so they could make you out of different atoms at the other end, it would make zero difference
you're died and there's a new you made out of new material. you've been cloned.
Do you die when you go to sleep every night?
You sound like some white buddhist retard going on about reincarnation
Go suck a cock and get it out if your system
A better question is why bother with teleporters at all for most cases, when you have free conversion of energy to matter built into every ship?
No need to teleport supplies down to the surface. Simply send a shuttle (or even a replicator itself) down to the surface and make everything.
Hell, unless its a wasteland it should already have the technology. Can just whip up whatever the fuck you want. Power it with sand. Its all physical matter anyway, makes no difference.
you die in the same sense that you die in the teleporter. which is maybe. but "death" may not be a meaningful descriptor to apply to "consciousness', which is how we describe "you".
This is 100% true. It isn't as if the person being disassembled has their consciousness placed in a magic little box during the process, only to be downloaded and reimprinted on the new brain of the reassembled copy, when? the second after the body is completely formed? Not even. And even fi that were the case, the copied consciousness inside the magical flash drive or whatever IS STILL JUST A COPY.
Thusly, teleportation is a mass murdering/replication machine and nothing more.
The show descibes in details how it breaks you apart up to the protons and then reassembles that soup of protons.
Reminder that Janeway murdered Tuvix
Its very philosophical. Every 7 year all the organic matter in your body has been replaced, including your brain. Are you still the same person? Or did you die somewhere down those 7 years?
Two Kirks. Two Rikers. These never could have happened unless the device is simply making duplicates.
There is a lot of evidence that consciousness is a quantum phenomenon, implying it is partly independent from your body. Im not talking about souls or anything, but the research in this field is intrigueing, since only the application of quantum mechanics would explain consciousness instead of us just being mindless automatons.
>evidence that consciousness is a quantum phenomenon
what evidence
Godbabble evidence.
Your mother
No, serious research from some Stanford guys
sounds like bullshit
At this one should actually forget everything concerning ST teleporting. Too much weird shit going on desu.
And where the hell is Tom Riker? Still a lost boy in some forgotten Cardassian prison cell?
What would I do without the transporter to provide me with a nonstop source of abominable casus belli to complain about? I'll state simply that I can't count the number of times I've wanted to provide a trenchant analysis of the transporter's inconsistencies. I hope you realize that the transporter is just a rotten pipe dream from an avaricious pipe. In reality, we'd indeed have a lot less allotheism if the transporter would just stop taking us all back to the Stone Age.
As they look over the world's painful panorama of war and terror, some people conclude that it is too late, that no amount of information or activity could possibly renew those institutions of civil society—like families, schools, churches, and civic groups—that oppose our human vices wherever they may be found—arrogance, hatred, jealousy, unfaithfulness, avarice, and so on. But let's get down to business: The transporter wants to control every aspect of our lives. It wants us to rise, fall asleep, work, and live at the beat of a drum. Then, once we're molded into a uniform mass, we'll be incapable of seeing that among the many challenges in encouraging open, civic engagement is a bottom-line unawareness of how some express the view that I shall do my utmost to shatter the adage that “metanarratives” are the root of tyranny, lawlessness, overpopulation, racial hatred, world hunger, disease, and rank stupidity. Others express the view that there is little doubt that I could make a long argument for the idea that the transporter is operating under the misguided assumption that it can absorb mana by devouring its foes' brains.
If this post provokes a response from someone of opposing viewpoints, I would hope that the author(s) concentrate on offering objections to my ideas while refraining from attacks on my person or my intelligence. You know I'm right. Now what are you going to do about it?
Having detectors stare at photons in a slit experiment, changes the results of the experiment even though the detectors dont interact with the photons. It implies staring at something has an quantum mechanics interaction on it influencing it in mild ways without actually physically interacting.
A college of einstein did once ask
>If we all stopped staring at the moon for a second, would the moon stop existing for that one second?
That is how the results of these photon slit experiments can be applied to the concept of consciousness. There is far more stuff out there showing consciousness influencing probability in the face of lacking physical interactions with only quantum mechanical links being explanations.
The guys researching this arent psuedospiritualists, theyre hardcore scientists and take the data as it is. There is a lot of compelling evidence linking brain functions on a cellular level with quantum mechanical processes. in fact it seems to be a common scientific theme with a lot of basic biological processes like photosynthesis even using quantum mehcanical manipulation.
Consciousness seems to be links with quantum mechanical interaction on a neurological cellular level, implying there is an interaction, though its unclear how.
The data is solid, but the research being really down to earth dont brag about it to much because they get people consider results like this ludicrous or worse, hippies start promoting silly ideas without really understanding the science. Currently research into quantum interactions of consciousness is a small but stable field.
So what really stops them from reassembling a more perfect body instead?
They already use it to cleanse the body of infection and bacteria. Why not rebuild faulty organs or make themselves younger. Build some damn eyes on Geordi for a change.
No it doesn't change anything, this is a misinterpretation/oversimplification. What it does is collapse a quantum state into something comprehensible by the observer. They aren't affecting change in what the photons are doing, just effectively simplifying it into something understandable by an external observer (one who is potentially not even conscious). For Schrodinger's cat, you could swap the human and the cat and the effect would be the same. Hell you could have a recorder that no one ever viewed recording it and that would produce the effect. It's about a closed system on a quantum level and the effect an external system surrounding it produces when it is influenced by events in the closed system, not the intelligence level of the external system. You can't dumb down quantum mechanics to try and use it to explain more complex things. I'd like to see some peer reviewed studies on this.
Because teleporting is magical shit, not science. Nothing can teleport. It's a product from human mind
>Consciousness seems to be links with quantum mechanical interaction on a neurological cellular level, implying there is an interaction, though its unclear how.
Even throug without society and communications there is no consciousness.
Consciousness is learned and maintained by other humans.
Because that's how you end up with a bunch of Hugh Jackman's drowning himself over and over.
There are studies which show that we are able to predict what a subject will choose out of two options before he is aware that he has made a selection
No dude, the point of it is that it transports people from one location to another. They remain the original people, largely also because it's a fictional scifi show.
In real life, eventually we'll develop this technology, but most likely it will end someone's original conscious and then recreate a duplicate on the transported side.
Imagine if that's the case. The transporter kills you and creates a clone who has all your memories. And no one will ever know that the original person died. You step into the transport them you black out and die. Another guy appears on the other end and everything thinks it's you. The only guy who knows the truth invented transporters and is some sadistic fuck and he's the final boss of star trek
>you will never jaunt while conscious and spend an eternity in your own mind
>. And no one will ever know that the original person died.
Except everyone would know as it would be quite clear by how the teleporter functions.
It doesn't matter. The result is the same. A universe which is identical in every single way except for teleporters in the first universe destroying someone and recreating them instantly in another location with perfect accuracy, and in the second universe physically moving that person to that location with perfect accuracy, they are identical. An infinite amount of times in any given period of time we are being destroyed and recreated in a slightly different place anyway, basically. Here's the thing. I'm a nihilist. Let's say this technology got invented, but no-one would use it because of this fear that you aren't 'you', the original 'consciousness', like you have a soul or some shit. I would use it, because I don't care. If I am destroyed, and an identical copy made somewhere else, that is me. If I am not destroyed, but an identical copy of myself is made somewhere else, we are both, in that instant, the exact same person, then we rapidly become different people as we are receiving different external inputs. But if you destroy the first person, you are deleting the possibility of the first different person being created, only allowing the second one to exist. Therefore, you are simply choosing to have yourself be affected by the input of being in a different location. In other words, that's you. But of course, the human mind finds it difficult to comprehend this, because all the universe is is what you experience.
Death is legitamately terrifying. I know that one day I will be gone for eternity. It's fucking sends chills down my spine.
I honestly think it's pretty unfair to be given life to appreciate, and then have it taken away from you at some point of old age. It feels like someone giving you a delicious meal or a cool toy to play with, and then ripping it from your hands and mocking you. I'd love to live a thousand years in a youthful body.
It's all a big prank.
This man, if someone offered me the chance to live forever I wouldn't be able to say yes quicker
>What comes through on the other side is some kind of weird clone thing that's "born" with the memories of the person who was originally sent through, right?
Nope. All matter is energy.
Star Trek transporters break the matter that makes you up into the constituent energy, then shoots that to whereever and reassembles that energy.
There are many kinds of transporters where it is a clone/copy on the other end, but without dealing with questions of soul, what comes out on the other end is you in Star Trek.
>unfair
Lel. Tell that to all the... oh wait they don't exist, never have and never will.
You know what else they glazed over? The fact that they developed eternal life using a transporter.
Their was an episode where an insanely old chick got a sickness that made her even older, and they used hair from her hairbrush to bring her back to the age she was when she combed her hair.
Figure they could have used that a few more times.
yeah man it's so unfair that you can post about your teenage existential crisis on the internet while literally billions of people on this planet live in poverty or war
>Therefore, you are simply choosing to have yourself be affected by the input of being in a different location.
What the fuck, that's not how brains work