It's not like I didn't understand the plot of Westworld until watching this video, I had the general ideas down by the end of the season. But this video got me thinking about it again, and it really activated my almonds.
Why does music almost never touch on issues like this while film and literature do it all the time? Music is either entirely instrumental, which can be very profound on its own, but is completely up to the listener on how to interpret it. Or, of course, there is also music with lyrics. But why is >98% of lyrical music focused on simple topics? The vast majority of it is focused on love songs and everyday personal problems that the artist is dealing with. There's a smaller subset of music that tell narrative stories through an album, but pretty much all of these have simplistic plot lines and don't challenge the listener to think about anything that hasn't already been said in a book or movie.
I could go to a movie discussion board (preferably not Sup Forums, because Sup Forums is ass) and have an extremely long discussion about a show like Westworld and the intricate points it makes about philosophy and ethics. But when I go to a music discussion board, most arguments either boil down to "I ((subjectively)) like/dislike this music" or "this artist is/isn't technically proficient at making music."
Music is still my favorite form of art/entertainment, but I can't help but feel like it is more primitive than film or literature. What do you think, Sup Forums?
Lol Sup Forums will shitpost all day in grimes threads, but as soon as I try to start an actual discussion about music itself, no one replies. How neat is that?
Jack Mitchell
Westworld is a terrible argument for television as an artform
Nicholas Lopez
I would say that this actually helps my argument. Even a mediocre tv show has more intellectually challenging ideas than almost any music.
Christian Garcia
Music isn't plot driven. You don't see the depth and intricacy in music because you don't really have the understanding if music theory and analysis, and the experience of analyzing music, to properly dig into it. Most people don't. I don't, I'm just here for the recs.
The difference is that TeeVee is a very writing driven medium (well it's a vidual novel but there are like 5 shows that actually make good use of that), and everyone has an opinion on that, like politics. It's easier to discuss and understand because writing is drilled into us from a young age. And even then high-level prose and thematic breakdown is beyond the wide majority of people, even thr majority of book nerds. That's perfectly fine.
Carter Carter
Music is a more abstract art form than tv now fuck off
Nolan Fisher
I would say this is an incorrect argument because music has it's own forms of narrative and commentary. Film and literature are plot driven, and music is much less so. But the actual environment the music is created in and how it sounds and what influenced it and sometimes the lyrics and probably many more factors tell it's own narrative and commentary on the world. For example, you could say that Nirvana was a reaction to the pop at the time, and that in and of itself is sort of a narrative.
If that makes any sense
Gabriel Ortiz
But what purpose does that "depth and intricacy" in music serve? At least with philosophical topics in film and literature, we can apply those ideas to how we live our lives. How does understanding an intricate piece of music do anything besides make us think "wow this guy is bretty gud at making music"?
Charles Gomez
>Even a mediocre tv show has more intellectually challenging ideas than almost any music. Hopsin is unironically saying challenging ideas. Is this b8?
Brandon Gomez
have you listened To Pimp a Butterfly?
Samuel Foster
>Hopsin >MUH HIP HOP ISN'T GOOD ANYMORE, STOP DOING DRUGS
>Westworld >Do androids deserve rights? What does it mean to be human? How does our code of ethics fit into these situations that humanity may have to deal with in the future?
One of these is a very narrow minded, opinionated statement. The other is some questions that humanity may have to deal with in the future.
Brody Gomez
proust says music is the best artform
Adrian Young
I bet you just follow the "Lmao man who invented college xD" meme and haven't actual heard more than 5 songs from him. I wanted to have a smart discussion....
Liam Peterson
Interesting point, I didn't think about the context of music. But couldn't you say the same for other forms of art as well?
TPAB is decent, but I don't see how it applies here. It's just Kendrick talking about his personal struggles that came with his rise to fame. Not really that deep.
Carson Sullivan
>it really activated my almonds
Stopped reading here desu
Lucas Nguyen
Can we stop the comparing arts thing and just have fun?
Lincoln Green
you're just not listening to the right music. this is like a whole season of westworld packed into 2 minutes
>Do androids deserve rights? What does it mean to be human? How does our code of ethics fit into these situations that humanity may have to deal with in the future? The show skimmed through all these questions in a very superficial way, and was not first to ask them. The show is basically DUDE NAKED PEOPLE LMAO, like every other HBO show now.
James Brown
Bruh, I used to be a huge fan of Hop when I was in high school. The dude's not bad at rapping, but there just wasn't enough substance to what he was saying in ANY of his songs. When I look back on his music now, I just see a grown man that's complaining about things a high-schooler would (which is probably why I liked him in high school).
Kayden Fisher
>Taking seriously deep philosophical ideas from any art that isn't Litature
Lolkek
Aiden Kelly
I can't have even a little bit of fun by throwing in a few memes? Damn I guess I'll just be super serious from now on.
This is fun for me tbqhwy pham, discussions like this are great.
Ok, you got me there, Westworld isn't the epitome of television. Like you said, it's not the first to ask these questions. But the point wasn't to discuss Westworld as a show, but rather to compare and discuss the merits of different forms of art.
Brody Thomas
>litfag >can't even form a grammatically correct sentence >can't even spell literature >capitalizes it, even though there's no need
really fires the neurons, yo
Asher Torres
Yeah you totally could say that about other forms of art as well, and that IS a part of other forms of art. The context of a piece of art is almost like it's own narrative, and how it affects the art is very interesting.
Thomas Ramirez
>But the point wasn't to discuss Westworld as a show, but rather to compare and discuss the merits of different forms of art. I labor my point because I don't believe most TV is all that far ahead of music.
Christopher Myers
Art doesn't have to be relevant to our lives to be interesting or meaningful. It just... is.
Joseph Adams
>This triggered My job here is done
Daniel Sullivan
You're right, it doesn't NEED to be relevant. But I think most would agree that it is much more interesting when we can relate it to our lives.
Ah, the good old "I tried to make a point but failed miserably, so now I'm going to fall back and try to make it look like I was b8ing" tactic. Keep doing you, famo
Adrian Morgan
>Ah, the good old "I tried to make a point but failed miserably, so now I'm going to fall back and try to make it look like I was b8ing" tactic. Keep doing you, famo You got me. But at least I'm not uptight about it. Lmao.
Landon Reed
hahahaha
Isaac Young
Keep in mind, we're not just talking about television. My point is that TV, film, and literature are all better than music when it comes to communicating complex ideas. Still unsure whether visual art is on par with the rest or if it's in the same place as music.
Jaxson Morgan
I know user is probably bating. But he's not wrong tho.
Parker Morris
Music is not a medium for conveying complex ideas, but rather for conveying emotion. I would argue that all great art focuses on conveying emotion and that if there are complex philosophical ideas, it should be in service of the emotional impact.
Take Westworld. Sure, it covers deep philosophical issues, but ultimately, if all anyone cared about was the philosophy, they'd be much better off buying any number of books written by philosophersof the emotional resonance of the narrative, and. Westworld ultimately succeeds as art because of the emotional resonance of the narrative. The philosophical themes are there in service of that end.
Same goes with music. Lyrics are typically not about complex topics, because it's hard to adequately explore complex topics in a 3 minute song. Rather, artists focus on emotional resonance, and any themes conveyed in the lyrics are in service of that end.
Asher Ramirez
All art is just whiny shits thinking they're deep for throwing paint on a wall, capturing some movement with a camera, or recording music. All art is equal cause all art is shit
Luke Flores
Music works different than Film and Literature. It pretty simple.
Mason Barnes
>all great art focuses on conveying emotion I'll somewhat agree with you there. Art is very much based in human emotion.
>The philosophical themes are there in service of that end But I'll disagree with you here. I can't make an all-encompassing statement about television/movies. But Westworld, and shows similar to it, are the opposite of what you said. I would say that the philosophical components are the main focus of the show, and any emotional elements are there to get the viewers invested in the show so they continue to watch and understand the statements that the show makes about philosophy/ethics.
Kayden Peterson
Why are you on this board?
Jeremiah Martin
>TV, film, and literature are all better
Literature is. Film is arguable and TV is 100% garbage. Everyone have said already, music is not plot driven so this will rarely be the main point of a song. Even when it's, musicians are not the smartest people on Earth, so it will likely sound cheesy and childish or just pretentious, badly written. Also there's no public for such a thing today, but we once had Opera.
Aiden Perez
cause I like music
Levi Powell
Music is not meant to convey these themes. The art and complexity and brilliance of music is in the theory and composition skill of making/performing the sounds.
Literature will always be the supreme art form for exploring deep philosophical/political/cultural/historical etc. themes.
Kayden Ross
music is mainly emotional
Carter Evans
Being visceral and evocative is the most important aspect of art.
Angel Young
Damn, I completely forgot Opera existed. That's a pretty good point.
>all art is shit >i like music so you like shit?
I think this is a good way to sum up the thread.
Kayden Torres
What a dumb thread.
Connor Russell
Thanks for the bump, my dude
Lucas Mitchell
Welcome. But really. You get more discussion from those stupid "have you expedience these fine art" threads then this thread. You've gotten relatively the same answer that came to be expected. And there isn't a big discussion going on in this thread yet. Sadly enough. Click bait threads can get more attention than threads that are trying to get smart discussion going. Also you have a pretty annoying attitude.
Jackson Nguyen
*experienced
Colton Green
>why is >98% of lyrical music focused on simple topics?
Commercialism. The same goes with TV.
Austin Thomas
>Music is still my favorite form of art/entertainment, but I can't help but feel like it is more primitive than film or literature. What do you think, Sup Forums?
I'm actually a film lover before a music lover, but no, music is not "an inferior artform" compared to other artforms.
More literary artforms like literature, poetry, philosophy, theater, and film already do the "communicating complex ideas" thing just fine, so it makes no sense to want that from music. Music can certainly touch on those subjects, but it's first and foremost an abstract artform above all else, and one that puts aesthetics above "ideas." The only ideas music can really explore with any kind of intellectual depth is the ideas within its own unique language (compositional ideas, timbre ideas, texture ideas, lyrical ideas). Innovative composers weren't sitting around asking themselves, "How do we put Shakespeare into music form?" They were more concerned with sound and figuring out novel arrangements of sound. Yes, there's narrative symphonies (Tristan and Isolde, etc) but the primary driving force for a composer (or any musician really) was always the "sound," just like photography and painting are concerned with the "image."
And again, you can hint at complex philosophical, political, and narrative ideas in music, photography, and painting, but those arfforms work best when the aesthetic is prioritized. And as pure aesthetic forms, they work better than the aforementioned artforms.
Basically, you get two different experiences from the "literary" artforms and the "aesthetic" artforms. I go into the latter with the mindset of wanting something that is indefinable and abstract, beyond any kind of conventional language aside from its own (i.e. it's always really hard to describe how a song makes you feel and why it makes you feel that way).
Hunter Reyes
Music evolves new ways to express old ideas, they're just abstract wobbly air and shit instead of plot points
Brayden Edwards
>putting one artform over another kinda dumb desu.
Logan Lopez
Kendrick Lamar would like a word with you.
Alexander Brown
Stop bumping this stupid thread.
Leo Robinson
I would say because music is more instinctive and simple it affects people more deeply and is more human just a simple note lines can invoke such a wide range of emotions
Justin Reed
If im depressed I would be more likely to put on a song rather than a film to help ease my feelings
Ryan Brooks
These are all great answers. Thank you guys for the great discussions and things to think about.
This is a great point, too.
Dominic Rivera
If modernist writers were all about trying to convey emotions and sensation beyond the cage of language, then instrumental music achieved that goal hundreds of years before any of them were born.
>Music is either entirely instrumental, which can be very profound on its own, but is completely up to the listener on how to interpret it. Why is this a problem?
Luke Wilson
I think the main reason people watch Westworld is because the story is exciting and interesting (emotional investment) not mainly because of the philosophical themes.
Logan Johnson
>Film >1-3 hours of talking >TV >10-20 Hours of talking >Literature >100-1000 pages of words >Music >30 minutes to 2 hours of occasional speech with instruments
There's also plenty of shitty books and movies about love, but you don't bother to watch/read those, do you? It's difficult to express complicated ideas through limited talking and the instrumentation that has to go along with that. For music to be popular it pretty much has to cover a relatable topic and be not overly complex or experimental. Shows like Westworld can have a deeper meaning while still being appealing to the average person, that's more difficult to do with music. Classical music probably appeal to an average person, but they still wouldn't understand the theory behind it and don't try to interpret it.
You could just listen to spoken word poetry over freeform jazz, that would have some meaning that's understandable without knowledge of music theory, but it wouldn't necessarily draw you in, and is a fairly niche genre.
The total proliferation of visual arts and music has desensitized many people to the fact that, yes, it is in fact art, and yes, it probably has some deeper meaning.
It's only more "primitive" because it is very different from TV/Film and can't be accurately compared to it. A comparison to fine arts such as painting or sculpture would be more appropriate.
Hip Hop is honestly closer to literature than most other genres of music, due to the fact that it has a higher focus on lyricism than others like rock music, or, god forbid, metal.
TL;DR: It's not worse, it's just different I typed this up 4 hours ago but just got unbanned
Lucas Harris
>Hip Hop is honestly closer to literature than most other genres of music Why do people keep saying this? Chanson is literally the only genre where the text (not just if the lyrics sound pretty or mean something, all about it) is something essential to the music.
So, following this, artistic dance is the 'worst' of all arts?
Thomas Brown
Most of the messages in music are told though themes. DSotM tells a story of a fall into madness through themes, the Grips messages are almost entirely thematic as a tangible meaning is often hard to get from their lyrics.
Television also captures your whole attention, you have to have a plot going in order to stop people from getting bored. With music you can have a plot, but because people often put on music when they're doing something else it's not necessary. Even then it's easy to miss sometimes, people will tend to focus on the music even when you can understand and follow the vocals.
Angel Thompson
Film and tv is inferior to Music. Music has emotional impact, it can make me feel happy, sad, reflective, energised etc, while tv and film is just entertainment
Jayden Allen
Every punk band to have ever existed touches on very real issues about society, you’re just not looking at the right stuff and there’s countless conceptual albums out there too.
Adam Perez
I'd say that it depends on the purpose you're using it for. Personally, I prefer to work with the written word, as it's the most ubiquitous and portable form of communication in the world. It's not as effective for stirring emotion as music is, however.
Jacob Hill
I agree with you but also disagree with you,there’s a lot of art driven films that can have a lot of emotional impact.
I think it has to do with what you're looking at on both mediums
Nathaniel Campbell
There is more to music than listening to it
Like creating and playing a song on the guitar is one of the best feelings in the world to me.
