Musicianfag here, calling all musictheoryfags of Sup Forums

Musicianfag here, calling all musictheoryfags of Sup Forums

>general musician thead

I have a few questions to ask since i know I won't get any clear answers from Sup Forums for obvious reasons

Anyways, i've been playing guitar for 5 years, drummed on/off before that so i got a ground background imho

As a fair statement my influences are really wide and am strongly inclining towards progressive metal(prog death and tech death included) and fusion

I'm pretty open to compose more smooth harmonic/melodic songs but i'd like to have a middle ground being proficient in every aspect and have that heavyness going on

I mean, i know all my major/minor modes, all modes from harmonic/melodic minor scales, chord inversions, modulation, etc...

The thing is i'd like to develop more of a fusionish/metallish sound

Biggest influences are
>Allan Holdsworth
>Ron Jarzombek
>Chimp Spanner
>Plini
>Guthrie Govan
>etc etc including bassists/pianists/drummers

Thing is even with all the knowledge and practice, i can come up with nice original sounding stuff but it's weird to feel confined to the major/minor scales

Modulations are pretty much limited to cadences/direct modulation(both chordal and tonal)

I learnt theory on my own cause music courses in school were far too shitty where i live to want to learn anything


I don't know, i know i still have a fuckload to learn but any pf you guys willing to share some tricks to create movement within a scale? Your personal approach to altering chords, unusual chord voicings/progression

Any of you guys want to share

I mean i have mine and am still figuring alot on my own but i'd really like some inputs from other ppl

>pic related
Current axe(RG7421) with Setmour Duncan's Pegasus/sentient combo

I was intrigued until I seen "metal"
Pick up an acoustic and relearn the concepts of chords and harmony. Most metalfag guitarists I've met are consistently illiterate with proper chords and phrasing. I really hope you at least understand more than drop A power chords, dude

Have you read the post fucktard? I know my theory and am calling for theorists to share composing skills you dumb shit

If anything i RARELY use power chords and when i do it's a root-5th-root-5th 4 stringed chord

Now fuck off if you're going to be a dick

Btw, go listen to some actual prog metal or fusion

And my guitar is tuned in standard dumbass

>when i do it's a root-5th-root-5th 4 stringed chord
>implying that's any different

did /comp/ die? As for scales, have a look at minor modal scales, esp. harmonic minor modal as well as altered scales.
Use sequences to create patterned movements within scales.

Reading comprehension fucktard, read the post carefully

>have a look at minor modal scales, esp. harmonic minor modal as well as altered scales.
Dorian/Phrygian/Aeolian and their altered forms? I know them, using musically harmonic/melodic minor is quite odd for me even if I always end up modulating all the them but it always seems out of place for some reasons
>Use sequences to create patterned movements within scales.
Like chord progressions? I know them and are redendundant

harmonic minor is aeolian with major 7th.
Altered scale is the 7th mode of melodic minor.
Have a look at both diminuished scale and the gipsy minor and major scales.

sequences are NOT chord progressions. They are melodic patterns that repeat, but going up or down a note within the scale with each repetition.

>harmonic minor is aeolian with major 7th.
I know
Altered scale is the 7th mode of melodic minor.
I know...
Have a look at both diminuished scale and the gipsy minor and major scales.
On the degree that is one half step to the note you can build dim7/fully dim7, dominant 7 and minor 7th chord whereas the other degree has fully dim 7 and i know the scale pattern throughout the neck

sequences are NOT chord progressions. They are melodic patterns that repeat, but going up or down a note within the scale with each repetition.
Sounds stagnant and repetitive

What i'm looking actually is to incorporate ideas into my improvisation

Is there a way to modulate from major/minor to harmonic/melodic minor? Move from a key to a distant one without use of cadences? Any interesting theory bits to spice up chord voicings? Or modal improvisation

Permuting in a correct way scales from other keys as to create movement that helps modulation

You know, stuff like that

Tbh i'm not a noob, just looking for concepts that i can make logic out of and incorporate into my arsenal

forgot to add, try the tetrachordic approach.
Split your scale into two halves of 4 notes.
Like
> A B C D + E F G A

then just try out different combinations of semi, whole and augmented steps within each half
Like
> A Bb C# D + E F G# A (gipsy major)
> A B C D# + E F G# A (gipsy minor)
> A Bb C# D# + E# F# G# A

Of course do prevail the scale degrees that signify the function of the scale. If you do a scale of a V chord, preserve the maj3 and min7, etc.

Melodywise, the use of augmented and diminuished intervals add tension. Syncopation, suspensions and anticipations create tensions as well.

That's starting to look like what i'm looking for

Are there anyways of mixing major/minor keys with harmonic/melodic minor? But in a non abrupt way?

Any jazz theory to add? I'm strongly leaning towards it

Buy a key instrument and learn jazz piano. You need at least 4 voices on it so you can learn to play a bassline and the harmony at the same time
Once you can play jazz you should have wonderful movement between the scale

You can buy something like pic related and learn more into sound creation, but it's a great tool for learning all sorts of things being a pocket sized synth

Try learning about Indian ragas. The system is poorly standardised and half of the information is in broken English because the translators are always adamant that you call what we know as mixolydian 'khamaj', and so on. The main advantage is that ragas are quite interesting when you finally know what you're doing.

From a chord progression standpoint check out Ted Greene's Chord Chemistry and Modern Chord Progression books. They are strictly for the serious student. The chords will force you to change your melodic aproach to arpeggios and soloing. Thank me later.

Also try composing something in a strange time signature. It jogs the creative juices.

I used to have a laptop with guitar pro 5 + Synthfont(realistic sounding midi to mp3 with realistic sound packs)

That's when i used to shit compositions here and there

I still can do it on my axe but without atmospheric keyboard chord voicings/back tracks/jamming to my own comps it is another field of practice that limits me

Don't get me wrong i only use 4 and + notes chord voicings and know my theory pretty well

I just want some ideas

Holy shit

Abandon thread OP is a massive cock monger

there are lots of modulation techniques.

Easiest would be to start with a secondary dominant (the dominant of the target key), then do some cadence in the target key and voila.
C to Ab:
> C Gº [ Ab Bbmin Eb7 Ab ]

You could use the circle of fifth, moving your chord root downwards in fifth, either diatonically or as a string of secondary dominants.
C to G
> C F B5- Emin Amin D G
> C7 F7 B7 E7 A7 D7 G

You can use a common note between two keys to do an instant swap, but have to consolidate afterwards

> C F G C (E on top) E A B E

Use "exotic" sixth chords. Neapolitans, augmented 6th chords (German, Italian, French chord) to reach keys with lots of different accidentals
Ex: Ab to C
> Ab Db/F G7 C (Db/F being a Neapoliton II chord of C)
Ex: Eb to C
> Eb D7-5/Ab G C (D7-5/Ab being a French 6th while still sharing the Ab note with the Eb scale)

19th century composer Max Reger had a wonderful book showing tons of ways to reach any key from any other key via modulation.

Thanks, will take a look
Thanks! Def will look!
I have a natural inclination towards rhythm and odd time signatures

If you want to write more complex metal riffs, play your guitar more, man. If the scales you learned don't give you the sound you want, learn more scales and practice improvising with them. I'm a guitarist as well, and had a similar problem with getting into different genres. At the end of the day, no amount of theory is going to "fix" your problem. The only thing that's gonna fix your problem is practicing your ass off. Don't get me wrong, learning more shit will help, i'm just trying to point out that your problem probably isn't lack of theory. The best guitarists I know don't know shit about theory. The thing about it is, music theory isn't a fast track to being able to play/write well. Practice is. So keep up on your theory, but practice is more important. Also, you shouldn't intentionally put too much focus on writing your own songs. A lot of the time when I see people sit down with the goal of writing a riff, they get frustrated. Just practice shit and the rest will take care of itself.

To clarify, i'm really not saying that you should come off of the theory stuff, i'm just saying that practice is probably far more important to your situation.

Yeah but i'm the type of dude who as soon as i get madly stimulated by a subject, i go out of my way to learn all the rules of said subject in order to transgress them

In music, in particularly the type of sound i'm looking for requires to jump frequently from key to keys, incorporate rhythmic concepts such as polypulse/polyrhythm, syncopation, and working with unconventional groovy riffs that doesn't sub divid itself into a 4/4 time signature

I'm playing my guitar for atleast a minimum of 2 hours/day and i can come up with alot of shit but i wanna reach the next level for so many personal reasons

So it's my obsession to know what makes the rules of a subject in order to think outside of the box

Rules = limits
Breaking out of limits = knowledge
Knowledge = power
Power = will and control

Play some blues.

humans being what they are, social, like birds squirrels even dogs,

do their best learning with a teacher, the net is kind of one D, you can tune into lessons, pause it each time to duplicate what the guy is doing,repeat,but with a live human a couple feet from you more brain synapses are active,,that is why & wherefor the tradition of kids in a classroom for most of their young lives has prevailed for kks of years.get a teacher maybe in a music school close by,who will get you you SLOOOOW down, learn in steps and learn thoroughly,maybe including classical guitar lessons,my bias there & what I really dig, teach clued me in on never letting the thumb meander from the center of the back of the fretboard, that keeps all strings equidistant & reachable with the other 4 digits,the guitar position,physical discipline results in energy directed at phrasing,without jumpin & bolting around,a poker face upper torso means more careful thoughtful expression,rt hand left hand, each must move in the optimum way to get optimum sound quality, teach clues you in on the instrument which works best for you,and helping you get the most from an instrument that is less than the best reasons of money.
jazz expression impros,scales a good teacher can show you stuff that you never woud have figured out in 20 years doing it on your own, i got hit with middle age muscle deficits, lost what at one time for about 7 years blistering speed,playing almost all the time,for myself,, some of my family have heard me, mostly I never see them, good luck but if you can swing lessons,find a teach who can play multiple styles who can perform pieces & lay them notes down each lesson

>Guitarist
>Musician
Pick one

Excellent, then you should have no problem following through with exactly what he just told you to do: improvise.

One of the biggest factors of Progressive music is that composition often encompasses much more than melody. Try and use some outside sounds, or change your tone.

If you like fusion (Holdsworth etc), then get yourself a good Fake Book and learn the everloving fuck out of every jazz standard in there. I kid you not. That shit will do you a world of good.

>pic related is a music review
>www.reverbnation.com/sundreamgun

I stopped listening to music.
Learned all the keys.
Started smoking lots of weed.
Began vaping lots of weed.
Finally, at 25, I took acid.
Then mushrooms.
Then ecstasy.
Then DMT.

There ya go.

>Easiest would be to start with a secondary dominant (the dominant of the target key), then do some cadence in the target key and voila.
I'm aware of secondary dominants but for some reasons, i find dominant chords to sound bland, maybe i should learn its inversions cause it's the only one i always never bothered with

>You could use the circle of fifth, moving your chord root downwards in fifth, either diatonically or as a string of secondary dominants
I know the circle of fifth, modulating via cadence sounds like you're still in the same key since the difference is subtle

I know how to modulate to parallel minors which is way more efficient imo cause you can clearly feel the mood of the chords from the change

I also developped 2 odd ways of modulating but those are my personal conception that i need to work more on

>You can use a common note between two keys to do an instant swap, but have to consolidate afterwards
I skimmed the notion but i'll check on it

>Use "exotic" sixth chords. Neapolitans, augmented 6th chords (German, Italian, French chord) to reach keys with lots of different accidentals
Ex: Ab to C
> Ab Db/F G7 C (Db/F being a Neapoliton II chord of C)
Ex: Eb to C
> Eb D7-5/Ab G C (D7-5/Ab being a French 6th while still sharing the Ab note with the Eb scale)
I saw the term of naepolitain/german 6th but never bothered to learn it since it was related to a read, def will give it a try

19th century composer Max Reger had a wonderful book showing tons of ways to reach any key from any other key via modulation.

Thanks for all the tip

The best way I've learned to improve improvising is to just improve as often as possible, and try to write mini licks then conjoin them into phrases that extend over 4 bars or more that eventually coalesce into entire melodic passages.

I needed zero music theory to any of this, the only music theory used is inherent to my ear. Basically, I can modulate a piece by just changing one note and making it adhere to a different mode, etc.

tl;dr write your own licks and passages over backing tracks. Helped me immensely. Also, blues.

fellow musicfag here
>11 years of drumming
>6 years of guitar/bass

My best tip would be to work on original rhythms, while your melody might be confined I'd argue that rhythm is the absolute core for a catchy riff

Not a fan of lame overused and repititive 12 bar blues thanks

Pentatonics are wack but i like the blues minor pentatonic scale tho, great to slide in a minord mode over a minor chord

I'm this guy.

Ignore him.

I've also been playing drums for 11 years, and guitar/bass for 6.

Melody is the most important, but not just for the guitar.
Bass melody is just as important.

Whoops.

I'm this guy

I have the drive and curiosity to go deep, I don't need nobody to tell me stuff that i have the will power and determination to acquire

I mean, i'm not shitting on your idea but it's not for me

I'm already advanced in my notions, i just wanted a lil input from people that have learned/approached differently than me
Already onto that, I'm currently reading a master thesis on Allan Holdsworth, i wanna try to understand what goes on in his mind because he's one of my biggest influences
Thanks for the tip but i'm already balls deep in drugs and mind related stuff

I just started on the acoustic guitar (4 months).
What is the best way to progress on the guitar?

OP here

Former drummer btw, favs are
>Virgil Donati
>Dennis Chambers
>Benny Greb
>Jojo Mayer
>Tomas Haake
>Travis Orbin
>etc...

I'm heavily focused on chunky groovy heavy rhythms and i tap alot on my knees

Sometimes just tapping a certain subdvision of a rhythmic pattern helps me to get ideas

I'm just wanting to get at a Holdsworthian/Jarzombekian type of mindfuckery level in my phrasing department

I don't really have training. My dad has made guitars since I was 5 and we just had them around. I just learned by picking them up and trying things. I just think of little things by humming and then finding them on the fretboard. For chords I usually start with single notes that sound good strummed sequentially and then put them together. Sometimes I just run up and down the fretboard for the next sequential note to the chord I want to make and end up finding something that sounds cool and use it somewhere else. I think experimenting can be a great way to come up with original stuff. But also I read about satriani and how he would seek out anyone who was proficient with their particular style of music and learn theory from them and then use it in his own way. My advice is to experiment and not limit yourself. Best guitarists I have ever heard about just spent a lot of time sitting at home practicing and experimenting. I've heard stories about duane allman renting a cabin to just sit and play all day or hendrix sitting in the bathroom playing because he loved the reverb off the tiles or eddie van halen as a kid would sit there playing at the foot of his bed while his brother went out and got laid and he'd still be sitting there in the same position when he came back.

OP here
Learn basic theory;
>learn the intervallic formula to create a major/minor key
>learn intervals that makes up chords and the physical relationship of harmonic ratios between notes and why they sound the way they sound
>learn inverted chords
>learn basic chord progressions
>practice all 7 modes of the Major/minor keys over a metronome
>practice artificial/natural harmonics, legato(hammer ons and pull offs), alternate picking, sweep picking, finger picking

That is a good beginning

My favorite drummers are Jon Theodore and myself.

The Mars Volta is pretty cool.
Some of Kayo Dot.
Uhm.
I dunno.
Some old classical piano stuff.
Like I said, I don't really listen to music anymore.
Major Tom by Peter Schilling is best pop song by a male singer.
No River by Esme Patterson is the best pop song by a female singer.
If I wanna listen to music, I listen to stuff I've recorded or ask the girlfriend what I should listen to.

Almost every musician I've ever met is a fucking hack.
They don't want to be like themselves, only a copy of who they admire.

Your own music should be your favorite music.