>Dr. Manhattan:She was pregnant. And you gunned her down.
>Edward Blake:That's right. And you know what, you watched me. You could've turned the gun into steam, the bullets into mercury, the bottle into goddamned snowflakes but you didn't, did you? You really don't give a damn about human beings. You're driftin' out of touch, Doc. God help us all.
Who was in the wrong here?
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Both of them. Fuck Comedian and people who say he was bro-tier. Rorschach was the real hero in this kino.
Who cares? It's just some shitskin gook. We need less of those animals.
Manhattan. Proved he didn't care about humanity. Comedian was always unsympathetic so it's easy to claim he was wrong. When it's what he would do every time.
It's an allegory towards a benevolent and good God and man.
If God is benevolent and good he wouldn't allow a world with evil. Because evil exists God is either not good or not benevolent.
That is what the comedian was trying to show/say. Dr. Manhattan is no longer good, he's filth just like the comedian.
The Comedian, you can't depend on a god to clean your own ass.
Ironic post.
Neither. Thats the beauty of it.
Watchmen DC is a masterpiece.
everyone except Rorschach
I really hate people who shit on Watchmen and Snyder.
Worst fanboys ever.
Bullshit, If G-d is all powerful, then he cannot be all good
>Ironic post.
How so?
Why does Iron Man look all weird in that screencap?
go back to bed Lex
bottle woman>Manhattan>Comedian in the order of responsibility. Woman highest for initiating violence, Dr.Speedo for only abiding despite near omnipotence, Comedian for overresponding and being too fucking stupid to wear a rubber
The Comedian seeing as how he actually shot a pregnant woman. And Dr. Manhattan for not saving the woman from being killed.
Was it just me but it seems like when Edward's saying to Dr. Manhattan that "if it wasn't for you, we probably would've lost this war", he says it disdainfully. Like while he likes killing people, he's actually kind of mad that the U.S. didn't lose Vietnam because it would've taught America some kind of lesson?
Did anyone else get this feeling?
>implying dr manhattan has any responsibility for anyone but himself
morals are spooks m8 and egoism is the nectar of truth
Neither are correct.
They're both men with different types of power giving them different perspectives on what's true and what's bullshit.
Comedian lives breathes and knows this bullshit, he kinda loves it, kinda sick of it. Either way the bullshit embodies him.
Manhattan is on this kind of, truth seeking journey, and comedian is there to tell him "ey buddy you're still a shithead just like the rest of us, whether you like it or not, these people think you're scum"
No matter how true or how enlightened Dr.Manhattan is, he's still just a man, with flaws, in this stupid universe of ours.
>Rorschach
>Nite Owl
>Manhattan
>Comedian
>Ozymandias
Wow these are all really interesting charac-
>Silk Spectre
>mercury
Mercury is poisonous tho
Watchmen is great because of Moore. Snyder is a hack
It's poison, but it's liquid. It wouldn't be a solid bullet whizzing into a baby pouch.
You sound like a broken record. They're both brilliant.
>wrong
Manhattan.
Comedian was the only good guy in the film. Everybody else was too dead inside.
One less Vietnam Fucking Shit in the world.
...for some reason I think you've mistaken "benevolent" for "omnipotent," y'know seeing as "benevolent" and "good" are synonymous.
Couldn't he literally bring her back to life the second he shot her he could if manipulated the atoms in the cells and healed that shit in seconds always bothered me why he didn't or at least if he at least fave enough of a shit to be concerned about it yet did nothing to changing it
Gibbons deserves as much credit as Moore does, so fuck you. Moore actually liked the script they ended up using for Snyder's film also.
>moore actually liked the script
Gotta need a sauce on that, ive only ever heard him be pissy as fuck his comics were not 1 to 1 adapted to the silver screen.
I don't think anyone denies she was pretty boring. Really i blame the actress, not the script
do you seriously watch that protest scene today and not relate with Comedian?
I know Snyder removed the nuances and hippie shit that made Moore's book thoughtful and interesting, but goddamn that scene feels good nowadays even if it's utterly the anti-moore
And that actor should get more roles where he throws his weight around
yes his cynicism is a mirror of the world, as Rorsharch says it. It's the only way the can dialogue with it.
he keeps doing awful shit that he's amazed god/universe allows him to keep doing
The Problem of Evil.
>If an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent god exists, then evil does not.
>There is evil in the world.
>Therefore, an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God does not exist.
Manhattan doesn't really care about humans outside of those whom he considers his "friends" (aka his old girlfriend and Silk Spectre II).
He is de facto a god, but does nothing to prevent evil.
Manhattan is detached from reality and doesn't feel the moral need to protect or defend people. He's what a "realistic" god would be like: cold, distant, disinterested.
He doesn't think like a human being anymore.
Hence the line
>You're driftin' out of touch, Doc. God help us all.
If Doctor Manhattan is all powerful, can he create an object that he himself can't move?
To me it was alarmingly impressive that the Comedian was able to pin down Manhattan's direction, of all people.
what? that he recognized the inhumanity, lack of care, and gross neglect manhattan was heading towards?
That's not why he was pissy. It was dealing with Hollywood execs never getting projects off the ground or stupid legal shit. I don't think he cared about it being 1:1 adaptations, he just became bitter after a while. Watchmen had a notoriously rough time getting made going from one studio to the next with multiple directors attached.
David Hayer(Solid Snake) wrote a screenplay which was what they ended up using(with some rewrites) for Snyder's movie. Hayter mailed the script to Alan Moore, who then gave his approval of it.
>“The first draft I sent to Alan Moore, he read it and said, ‘Oh, David, I think it’s very well done and its very close to the book, I really appreciate that. I don’t remember as much action being in the story before.’”
comicbookresources.com
He's a matter manipulator, so no.
He does not, however, have control on gravity. So I assume he can't "destroy" a black hole.
Comedians tend to be very cynical and have a somewhat clear understanding of life.
What was the Comedian's motivation for being a costumed vigilante?
Did he love justice?
Empathy?
He loves to beat up people and the pay is good.
Yes, keep in mind that this wasn't a bad thing to me (at all). I simply wasn't expecting it,
if we had no evil then we would have no free will, evil is created by man being free
i think thats the proper theist replay i think
Yes a common response, which is odd because the point of life is to go to heaven, a place of no evil.
Part of the point of Manhattans character was to say that this universe is deterministic. Neither of them are in the wrong because neither of them are doing anything besides going through the motions they were destined to.
i don't think simply going to heaven is the point of mortal life to most theists, its just the end of a journey. Also, saying there is no evil in heaven is up to debat from many angles
unless you're talking about crazy jahovas
Eh if god is all powerful and god created man. He could create a free human that wouldn't do evil.
Either he couldn't do it and thus not all powerful.
Or he could have done it and he didn't.
>Manhattan
>Rorschach
>Comedian
I don't study philosophy but these 3 guys exhibit different forms of nihilism, right?
i dont know how you think Rorschach displays that when it's more like its total opposite
Sure.
or he could snap his fingers and make the devil and all of those demons constantly manipulating humanity disappear. Or tone down all of those tsunamis and childhood cancers
he's probably a busy guy though
he did, then man ate the apple and got knowledge of god and evil
the real question is why he let satan fuck up his garden
judging the actions of a "greater cosmic entity" is like dogs trying to understand why we don't let them eat chocolate
its pointless, in the grand scope of reality the things we perceive as evil may or may not be so
>this thread
So Lex really was a good character after all.
>allowing some starving Malaysian child to be born with maggots in his eyes isn't necessarily evil, you just don't understand God's reasoning for it. It's really an act of love
k
>i dont know how you think Rorschach displays that when it's more like its total opposite
Read the comics. He goes like:
>Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose
Sam Hamm's Watchmen script would have been pure kino if filmed
Not him, but slowly read that last sentence again.
You watched Psycho Pass recently didnt you?
>judging the actions of a "greater cosmic entity" is like dogs trying to understand why we don't let them eat chocolate
i thought this was a pretty good analogy but maybe if i made it emotionally neutral it would help you understand
>judging the actions of a "greater cosmic entity" is like dogs trying to understand why im wearing glasses
>that David Hayter script where Nite Owl kills Ozymandias with an "Owl-arang"
>blaming God
>for Humanities dark deeds
We got free will for a reason yet when we fuck up, we blame god instead of taking responsibilities. Fuck comedian for being an edgy tryhard bitch
>he did, then man ate the apple and got knowledge of god and evil
And if god is all knowing he knew it would happen if he left the tree of knowledge in the garden. He knew and he allowed it to happen. The real question is more fundamental.
If god is all knowing then he knows the future and if he knows the future then he knew satan would be a jealous and eventually become evil. If he knew this and he could change it then he allowed it to happen because either he doesn't care or he wanted it to happen.
That's about the most retarded shit anybody on this board has probably said in the last month. And i'm not even talking about how retarded the idea that it'd be impossible for dogs to understand that chocolate=death is but rather how much of waste of space you have to be to think that. Even if it was futile the struggle to find the truth of the matter would be the most noble goal we could possibly strive for and throwing your hands up in the air when the ideas you have put forward are shown to be inconsistent and saying "well we're just not smart enough to think about this stuff".
Theyre both moving pieces in God's divine watch. Neither of them have any free will at all, how can morality exist? Comedian and Dr. Manhatten are on the opposite sides of this same realization. One says everything is joke, inherently meaningless, the other says its a divine miracle, the meaningless having meaning by its own existance (hence the miracle speech to silk specter).
Ozy thinks he and everyone else has control and trys to be on top of the world to guide it to safety. He believes you can have morality and make your own right and wrong by your actions alone, which is why Manhattan calls him an idiot and says the Comedian understood life much more than him. Rorsache is also on Ozy's level, however his solution is to be unflinching and unyielding. Morality becomes moot in Rorsaches worldview.
Silk and Owl are the most human because they are the most ignorant, and this get a happy ending. By the end its just business as usual for them.
All the characters are trapped in Gods program, causality, and each one wrestles with this differently. How can you possibly have morality in such a world? Everyone has different answers, yet they are all as equally meaningless as they are meaningful.
Pretty sure the studio wanted that in there because they wanted the audience to feel like the 'villain' had been defeated. Snyder actually managed to get them to change their minds, but he had to let Nite Owl punch Ozy in the face a few times.
>lel fuk hippies amirite XD!!!!
He shot a pregnant woman.
An innocent pregnant woman that he impregnated.
He also killed JFK.
So no. Fuck him.
Great character, but anyone who actually likes him as a person is objectively le edgy fedoralord.
Rorschach >>>>>>>>>>
>Snyder actually managed to get them to change their minds, but he had to let Nite Owl punch Ozy in the face a few times.
And they say Snider is a hack.
Oh sure that fits, but he also was so deadlock in his belief of what was right that manhattan had to kill. No compromise, even in face of armageddon etc.
This film is actually pretty good. And it holds up today.
Would you be friends with him?
Would your life get better/worse?
Weird part of my post got cut off.
Even if it was futile the struggle to find the truth of the matter would be the most noble goal we could possibly strive for and throwing your hands up in the air when the ideas you have put forward are shown to be inconsistent and saying "well we're just not smart enough to think about this stuff" is you just saying that we just can't possibly understand why these square pegs won't fit into the round hole. This shit isn't that complicated. The claims that god is all powerful/knowing/loving are fine and dandy when you take any of them on alone but as soon as you combine them with a literal reading of the bible it becomes a complete nonsensical cluster fuck. Where objectively speaking by definition god made the universe exactly how he intended it to play out and any silver lining to the shit show won't make up for the fact that god could have had his cake and eat it too. The only way this shit works out is if your working definition of god is that he's totally cool with all the shit that the bible says is bad.
The Comedian is a psychopath, he is constitutionally unable to care about risks or the rights and feelings of other people. Science says this condition is almost entirely genetic. So is it really justifiable to punish him for his behaviour, any more than a schizophrenic man who stabs a woman because he believes she is a demon?
I am not an edgy fedora lord or w/e other buzzword you retards at Sup Forums have come up with
I like the Comedian cause he lived his life without fear, wasn't a faggot and never managed to get past his nihilism phase like most people nowadays
>He shot a pregnant woman.
you never been cut in the face with a gun in your hand to know how you'd truly react in that situation
>He also killed JFK.
hey that happens what are you gonna do you know
>le edgy fedoralord
jesus you could call me some reactionary uncle, but edgy fedoralord while you literally like rorsharch the edgy LITERAL fedora lord? cmon
Blake for murdering a pregnant woman?
rubbers aren't magic
you can still get a girl pregnant or catch an STD even if you wear one
im pretty sure i already said the "real question is why he let satan fuck up his garden"
half your post is just saying what i already said
also
>That's about the most retarded shit anybody on this board has probably said in the last month. And i'm not even talking about how retarded the idea that it'd be impossible for dogs to understand that chocolate=death is but rather how much of waste of space you have to be to think that. Even if it was futile the struggle to find the truth of the matter would be the most noble goal we could possibly strive for and throwing your hands up in the air when the ideas you have put forward are shown to be inconsistent and saying "well we're just not smart enough to think about this stuff".
"god is a normal guy who has super powers :^), thats why using the morality that was learned to me by startrek i can understand the ebb and flow of reality and make pure truth statements about a being that created it"
I understand your analogy, I'm just saying it's a shit response. Saying "well we'll never know God's true will" whenever you find a contradiction is just special pleading. It makes any discussion pointless because there's only 2 possible outcomes: everyone agrees, or someone declares it's absolutely impossible to even know.
It doesn't further a conversation, it's just a cudgel to end disagreement. It's the same as those /lit/ faggots who call absolutely everything spooks
It goes further than that. Manhattan shows that in the universe of the story all things are deterministic. Nobody is actually in control of their actions. They are just actors on the stage of their world reading their lines that fate has given them.
Rorsach is LITERALLY Sup Forums
a right wing nutjob fighting against scumbag globalists in the name of freedom
no, Rorschach is Sup Forums circa 2013, back when every other thread was a libertarian circlejerk and Doompaul ruled the board.
Now it's basically solely ironic racism, non-ironic racism, and SJW-level attempts at manipulating social media and shilling
What? No he isn't. Rorschach is a man who hates all scumbags equally but loves humanity all the same. Sup Forums is neither of these things.
>which is why Manhattan calls him an idiot and says the Comedian understood life much more than him.
Whoa what when does this scene happen?
They both were, Ed never should of even thought about killing a pregnant woman. Dr.Manhatten should of tried to save her from getting killed so he was a shitty samaritan when he definitely could of saved her but he knew he wouldn't since he could see the future so I'm not sure why he was surprised, he should of known it would happen and it just shows how Dr.Manhatten was a pretty shitty person in general.
>"god is a normal guy who has super powers :^), thats why using the morality that was learned to me by startrek i can understand the ebb and flow of reality and make pure truth statements about a being that created it"
>It doesn't matter if my explanations make no sense to us once you push them far enough because god decided to make us too retarded to understand this sort of thing. It's just a shame though it'd be the key to humanity not being a clusterfuck of sin and he could totally do it and he loves us but he wants/needs us to suffer because of a vague silver lining about higher truths that nobody could actually know anything about even though by definition of an all power all knowing diety he could accomplish the same goals by means other than suffering unless suffering is the goal.
Maybe you're right though and the absolutely mind boggling amount of pain and suffering experienced by humanity is the goal and it's great but you can kindly fuck off if you think that.
>when he definitely could of saved her but he knew he wouldn't since he could see the future so I'm not sure why he was surprised, he should of known it would happen and it just shows how Dr.Manhatten was a pretty shitty person in general.
He was surprised because he feels like he has to go through the motions because he's depressed and doesn't care about human beings. Comedian spells it out in the scene, user. Issue 11 is Dr. Manhattan being convinced as to why he should care about humans save them, when before he didn't care.
This is correct. When you think about it, Rorschach and the Comedian are essentially two sides of the same coin. They both share the same overwhelmingly cynical view of the world, and they both recognize the capability for violence as a base trait within everyone, especially themselves. The Comedian chooses to cope with this knowledge by living a life full of vices, and fights on the side of the Watchmen purely as an outlet for the violence within himself--the irony of which provides the basis for his "comedy" (that he is an unrepentantly amoral man fighting on the side of justice). Rorschach handles himself in the exact opposite manner, living an ascetic lifestyle and adhering to an extremely rigid sense of morality. He too is named ironically, in that Rorschach tests are subject to interpretation by definition, while he is utterly certain in his views of the world.
>comedian
>not funny
>mfw
it may "end conversation" but you are trying to build your theory on faulty foundations, and as such your argument cant stand. Also, dismissing my argument simply because it "ends the conversation" is ludicrous, if you cant overcome my statement then the fault is with you
you see humans are limited by the brains we have, not only can we not perceive more then 3 dimensions we can only understand concepts like infinity in theory but not in practice. the fact that you are trying to judge a "creator" by human ideals and limited understanding of the universe makes any discourse inherently flawed
i mean look, you IMMEDIATELY try to counter my argument by drawing an emotional response, nice logical fallacy
that would be the standard theist reply, which is silly because free will doesn't exist. human behavior is entirely predictable and governed by causality, only someone truly ignorant of the mechanics of human behavior, someone truly clueless about human nature, could possibly entertain the idea of free will existing as something other than a psychological sensation.
>god decided to make us too retarded to understand
if he made us at all? maybe he just made the universe and let things happen on their own?
>sin
morality is a human construct
>wants/needs us to suffer
or he is letting us have free will and not interfering?
maybe the issue here is you think i'm a theist?
> ‘Oh, David, I think it’s very well done and its very close to the book, I really appreciate that. I don’t remember as much action being in the story before.’
So I guess even the content creators are as inept and stupid as the hollywood hacks that write the drivel that make it to the screen nowadays.
You sound so enlightened.
>Humans aren't capable of breaking down complex problems and then summarizing key points to communicate them to laymen
The whole "we can't understand x" is bullshit spoken by people who themselves lack the ability to think critically.
Just say that it's Gods plan and his plan involves breaking a few eggs, in a certain cases palliative children.
You can't understand God's plan like an ant can't understand your weekend schedule. It is as simple as that. A blatant cop out I agree but one in line with the shit they have been peddling.
Is it another one of those "anime characters spout entry-level ideas from Western philosophy like they're deep" animes?
>you see humans are limited by the brains we have
you may have heard this before. in philosophy, whenever someone is trying to make the case that logic is inherently flawed as a way of understanding the world, the standard response is to say that trying to to make a logical argument against logic itself is cutting off the branch you are sitting on. this is because the argument relies on logic to work, but if it works it means that logic is unreliable, which means that the argument doesn't work, but if it doesn't work then there's no problem with logic, which means there's no problem with the argument, and so on ad nauseam.
saying that we can't understand god because our puny brains are not good enough suffers from the exact same problem. having explained the general principle, i'll leave it to you to work out the fine details of the refutation.
Yes
I don't understand what you're trying to argue in favor of then. I was responding to the faults in a theist argument. The argument that god the Christian god exists and it tries to solve the logical flaws that come with the idea of saying that not only is the bible true but also the god is all powerful/knowing/loving.
Since you're not arguing that all you've done is injected yourself into an argument that you have absolutely no place in because your position is so fundamentally different that it's useless to bother going into it.
It's like if I was talking to a friend about how chocolate is a better flavor than vanilla and you ran between us and in the context of the argument started arguing that Dragons exist.
So uhhh I guess good job on playing devils advocate on the christian position of god while at the same time being completely willing to toss out the idea that god dictates morality (as Christians believe) and that the god of the bible is not only real but accurately described as all knowing/powerful/loving while at the same time that the history presented to us by the bible is also true.
First season was, second season eased up on it a bit. I still enjoyed it.
I'm really not
i do not believe humans will over be individual omnipotent no, not with out some genetic engineering or robotics
and as such i don't think in our current limited state could we understand the actions of an omnipotent being, and even if we could we would have no way of knowing that we could