>What is WB doing wrong?
>What is WB doing right?
>What needs to be done to fix this mess?
>What needs to happen with Zack Snyder / or does he need to do differently?
Let's have an honest and intelligent discussion on the current status of WB/DCEW. Leave your Marvel comments some place else.
Wait for another 5 years and reboot it again. Thing is people are already fed off.
Haven't seen SQ
MoS and BvS are solid films, average Americans are used to being spoonfed plot details and EU is used to "one" type of superhero film.
Long story short, they aren't doing anything wrong. People are just getting dumber
>2deep4u stupid americans
>What is WB doing wrong?
Hiring Zack Snyder
>What is WB doing right?
Nothing
>What needs to be done to fix this mess?
Fire Zack Snyder
>What needs to happen with Zack Snyder / or does he need to do differently?
Fire Zack Snyder
They're focusing too much on making films and not enough on making movies, using characters from a medium that is more movie-like than film-like.
agreed
>What is WB doing wrong?
this is correct.
WB execs meddling
There isn't someone to guard the filmmakers from the execs like Marvel has with Feige.
Looking at BvS, it's not hard to see Snyder's original vision. It's also not hard to see that WB came in demanded Snyder throw in more allusions and setup for Justice League, most likely at the least minute. So now this story that Snyder is putting together with Terrio has to accommodate WBs demands. Snyder only planned for Wonder Woman to be in the film, but now had to weave in the metahuman subplot and the teasers somehow. To make matters worse because the movie is now so stuffed with content, its running 3 hours. WB says to cut it, but all JL setup must stay.
The UC of BvS is Snyder's full version of the film, but it's still compromised because the JL stuff that WB wanted is now built into the fabric of the film, hard to take out. This is the reason he is not calling it a Director's Cut...that cut simply does not exist.
Then, due to nu-cuck critics complaining about the tone in BvS, WB execs now demand Ayer, who makes gritty and grimdark movies, to make Suicide Squad more "fun" even though it's done shooting. Eventually, reshoots are ordered, and the film re-edited.
Unlikely we get a Suicide Squad UC as the film itself is completely different, its not just scenes taken out, the whole movie was reshapen.
The issue isn't Snyder. It's not Ayer. It's WB pretending to be filmmaker driven, but coming in at the last second and demanding changes in order to catch up to Marvel.
Yup. Completely this.
>average Americans are used to being spoonfed plot details
I went into BvS knowing nothing about it, having watched no superman films before.
I understood the entire thing, and on top of that understood that it was fucking bad
What was Lex's motivation.
No one will admit it, and everyone laughs and doesn't think this is real but most people are biased and predetermined to hate DC films since after The Dark Knight when Marvel started up their cinematic universe. People want to hate DC simply because Marvel did it first. Even The Dark Knight Rises has hate.
Or maybe their films are just shitty? How ausitic do you have to be to not see how BvS was a narrative mess?
No; it's the same with the comics. Marvel has literally turned almost all of their comics into pandering tumblr fan fiction and it's praised almost endlessly by comic websites. Whereas DC now has mostly said FUCK OFF to SJW pandering and is instead focusing more on actual quality writing and it's barely praised by these same websites.
There is definitely a bias against DC in general. And I'm saying that as someone who actually prefers Marvel comics a bit more than DC comics and I don't care for WB's DC films at all.
Not him, but the narrative was pretty clear to me. I was pleasantly surprised to find a lot of unexpected subtext in addition to the main story.
The Theatrical cut sure, the Ultimate Cut isn't. It flows naturally, and has proper narrative flow.
could Bruce timm save DC films?
why he wasn't even considered as a producer?
too busy writing Batgirl/Batman fan fiction.
WB made a decent profit, which is more than you can say about a lot of their other flicks. The UE is also doing amazing, so that should be a boost. Why would they drop something that's been pretty profitable for them? Some loudmouth fags online isn't going to sway them.
People only get what's shown to them directly any nuance is not going to be picked up by them, some of it is cause of their approach which is what happened to me for MoS, a lot of people like it more after rewatching it.
I feel by that point we wouldn't be fatigued by just superhero films, but DC altogether. Pretty sad to see WB struggling at just building something this big. It would be worse to see it done all over again from square one.
I disagree about the "Spoonfed plot" statement. That isn't what it's about. It's about connecting to the characters on the screen which doesn't seem to be in Snyder's best Interest.
The plot to BvS was pretty straight-forward, but just more convoluted than it needed to be. The question of Superman's existence on earth was already questionable after Metropolis's destruction from MoS. They did not need the middle east set-up plot to thicken the plot line. The JL set-up plot is coming way too fast and is too forced.
I love Zach as a visual storyteller, he's not 100% responsible for the crammed in plotline. WB is trying too hard at the catch up game.
Literally this.
Yup. Ayer is one of my favorite directors too so I automatically had high hopes for SS, still havn't seen it yet. But if it is really as bad as people say it is, or just not as good as we thought it would be... then who would be to blame?
That is true, but that does excuse the fact that there is indeed plenty or issues in the DCEU so far.
Even with the missing plot details given to us, it just feels like there is still too many issues. The middle east scene could have been cut completely, apparently we just needed another reason other than Metropolis's destruction to question Superman's existence. They threw Jimmy Olsen in our face and immediately took him out of it for what purpose exactly? Lex's motives make zero sense and his performance was too hard to watch. I think I should just stop there.
Not a bad point. But either way WB needs to step aside and let directors take the film at a pace that doesn't make certain elements feel so rushed and forced.
A U T I S M
U
T
I
S
M
Go back to Sup Forums man. Actually read some comics instead of shitposting about comic book news. Comics are literally no different from how they were years ago.
Anyone can understand a shitty story. It doesn't make the story any less shitty. BvS has objectively bad writing.
>Too many subplots
>Too many characters
>Random out of place dream sequences that have no bearing on the actual plot
>EVERYTHING involving Lex Luthor
>The two titular protagonists are idiots.
The WB still has DCTV but even Guggenheim has been ruining Arrow lately.
>I can dictate what is or isn't bad writing despite not even being able to understand a capeflick
Throw yourself off a bridge you fucking mongoloid cellist.
The WB execs don't like Tim & Dini &the DCAU co. because they said the later DCAU shows would be a failure for not shilling toys, being too adult, being too slow, etc. etc. so they'd give them shitty time slots and schedules but every one of them was still a massive success so it would make the execs look like dumbasses.
Paul Dini and some of the other writers pitched a live action Batman Beyond movie and contributed ideas to Batman begins but they were all shut down for this reason.
If you think everything involving Lex was bad writing, then this film went over your head. I don't mean that in a disparaging way. I just think you went into the experience expecting something easy to follow and straight to the point. As a hint to what he was really planning, I invite you to ask yourself the following things:
1) Why burn Martha when a bullet would have done the job just as easily?
2) Did Lex want them simply to fight and kill one another in a zero sum game, or did he anticipate a clear and specific victor?
3) Over the course of the film, does Lex ever ask anyone for anything that he's not confident they can deliver?
Drop all this universe bullshit, hire a talented director with their own vision, respect that. That's why the Burton and Nolan Batmans worked, more or less.
>>What is WB doing wrong?
They are comitted to a Universe nobody wants too see. No matter how hard they try people just don't like the universe Snyder has made for them they are stuck with. Also trying to emulate Marvel instead of trying to be different.
>What is WB doing right?
I would say the darker tone is them trying to do something more serious but they are botching it. They have the right idea just poor execution and go way too far with it.
>What needs to be done to fix this mess?
Start over with someone like Captain Marvel and just show us a universe that already exists with lots of heroes let us see something other than dark gritty seriousness. It can still exist just don't have it be everything.
>What needs to happen with Zack Snyder / or does he need to do differently?
He needs to go or just be somebody who helps with action sequences.
They need to fire Snyder and stop interfering in the films.
Suicide Squad is apparently a muddled mess because they had several editors make multiple different versions until they found they liked.
>i-its th-th-the studio!
>it would be a great movie if the studio wouldn't mess with it!
lmao fucking dc plebs
>Cant understand BvS meme
I bet you thought that Psych 101-tier writing was deep huh?
"If God is all powerful he cant be all good, if he is all good"
That's funny, you say that the plot to BvS is easy to get, but then you say there's no point to the africa scene. You also don't seem to understand the implications of why the film asks should there be a superman? A lot of layers that you're not seeing, how can you criticize something you didn't even understand on a basic level?
>I can't even formulate a coherent sentence
Holy shit, never post here again.
Snyder had final cut on BvS. I remember this specifically because when it was announced the Snyder Defense Force used it as evidence that it would great because DC doesn't tamper and meddle the way Marvel does
he hates supes cause he has some daddy issues
>It's so simple!
Can you tell what that means in relation to Lex and the themes of the film then?
Them thinking people not liking Batman Vs Superman because it lacked humour was a mistake.
Them thinking peoplle will like their movies by adding humour is also a mistake.
After BvS they should of got a competent director who understands pacing and editing.
Marvel films
>heroes and villains interact with other in interesting and comedic ways
>most of the interaction is light hearted, with the action saved for very specific moments
DC films:
>the hero interaction is boring, usually acting super serious with one another
>fight scenes are overly epic try harding, and uninteresting
We watch cape shit because the heroes and villains have wacky super powers. We expect wackiness. Not DragonBall Z power level cock wags.
Lol wow the delusion is real.
The ultimate cut of BvS fixed some pacing issues and provided some explanation of situations. But it will never fix the fact that they decided to stop fighting over his mothers name. it is literally one of the worst things I have seen in a movie - who the fuck calls their mother by their first name anyway? oh and lets just throw this spear away here in this water and.....wait now i have to go back and get it, fucking hell it was so damn sloppy and terrible.
It all ties into Lex's daddy issues. He doesn't believe people with power can be good because his rich and poweful daddy abused him and the all powerful God didn't come to save him. Literally one of the themes of this film is "is this god-like Superman guy a good person?"
It's not a complex movie. But since the writing is a mess and not clear on it's message, you'll probably fire back with a completely different thought.
Excellent digits, my friend. Your analysis of Lex's character, on the other hand, leaves much to be desired. See .
Lex says "The oldest lie in America . . . that power can be innocent."
>Lex is rich
>Lex is powerful
>Lex is knowledgeable
>Lex almost cracks and says, "Knowledge is power, and I am the most knowledgeable person alive,"(or something very much to that effect) before correcting the statement into "The bittersweet pain among men is having knowledge without power because that's paradoxical."
It was never about daddy, It was always about power.
And do you know why he targets and blames Superman for it?
Speak for yourself bud
Lex Luthor
Orchestrated the Africa subplot
Is creating the beef between Bats and Supes
Is creating Doomsday
Is behind Batman's White Portuguese" plotline
Is doing stuff with metahumans
Has something with Darkseid
Is messing with Scoot McNairy's checks
Is behind the Capitol attack
Literally every single plotline/subplot/conflict is "Lex Luthor" did it! This one character has too much going on for himself in the plot. How can anyone defend writing?
Wouldn't it have made more sense, instead of rushing into Justice League, to deliberately pace the cinematic universe slowly?
>spend a couple of years making a Superman trilogy
>make a few movies on the side like Shazam and such
>instead of trying to outdo Marvel just focus on solo films and get people invested in the characters
>after Marvel has wrapped up Infinity War, and it's been a long time, reintroduce Batman in a new solo film franchise
>after both franchises are built up pretty well with sufficient financial pull, make World's Finest, ending with the Justice League setup
>get any other solo films you need for Justice League out some time after this
>THEN do Justice League
I mean, I know that's basically "do what Marvel did," but Jesus Christ. The way they're trying to do this cinematic universe is pure autism.
>one Superman movie
>Batman v Superman
>quippy meme flick
>JUSTICE LEAGUE
Do the executives have ADHD?
And his power complex is all derived from the way his daddy treated him.
Lol you're shilling this movie and even you cant understand it.
God never came to save him from daddy and he sees Superman as God and thus hates him for it. Again he also believes people with power cant be good.
>And his power complex is all derived from the way his daddy treated him.
Because Lex said it and why would he lie? He speaks of his father in glowing, almost worshipful tones multiple times throughout the rest of the film. Fact of the matter is, the truth in this, like most things, is probably closer to the middle than anything else, but why does he specifically choose to reveal this little personal nugget to Superman of all people? To garner sympathy from the man whose girlfriend he's just pushed off a building? Not bloody likely.
Or, you think just maybe it was just yet another example of Lex's patented spaghetti method of fear-mongering? It worked on Senator Jolly Rancher. Why wouldn't a similar approach work on the guy he wants to rush off and commit murder?
where did they said that?
do you have any source?
Dini on Kevin Smith's podcast. Timm and most of the crew are still at WB animation and will be for their whole careers so they don't speak much about it
Look man I get you like the movie but you are putting way too much thought into this. Clearly more than the writers ever did. You are searching for subtext that isn't there. I really dont want to sound condescending but you are the the type of person to analyze why Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall in the first place and what does that act symbolize. You guys can't say people are dumb and just dont get the movie if you are constantly digging up subtext that doesn't exist. We'll just agree to disagree.
>What is WB doing wrong?
everything
>What is WB doing right?
nothing
>What needs to be done to fix this mess?
don't bother, cut the losses and move on
>What needs to happen with Zack Snyder / or does he need to do differently?
he needs to be taken out back and shot
Ah so you didn't get it, nice of you to repeat yourself. Here's a clue why is it personal for Lex?
He did it to make himself seem Wacko, so Supes wouldn't try him, but what he said on the roof was his motivation, he wanted to gloat about it in front of Supes and feed his ego.
You can even see the look cross Superman's face when Lex starts in with the god stuff. Even he didn't buy that that's what Lex believed until Lex sold him on the whole, "I'm crazy! Daddy beat me!!" angle.
Again, why a flamethrower?
There is a right answer here.
>using a star wars "meme"
obvious disney shill
Congrats, you just described Star Wars
The subtext is pretty obvious, if people can't even understand the differences in batman's motivations and rationalizations, or things like why does Lex make DD, or basic plot things like why does Lois go back to get the spear, then they deserve to be laughed at.
god damnit
>>What is WB doing wrong?
Eveything
Bad cast without any charisma
Awful directors writers that has the bad habit to reinvent the characters
>>What is WB doing right?
This is a joke?
>>What needs to be done to fix this mess?
Reboot with a new cast
More faithful to the comics
Amazons are not anorexic bimbos
>>What needs to happen with Zack Snyder / or does he need to do differently?
Snyder and Deborah Snyder are the cancer of the DCUE
>What is WB doing wrong?
oh fug
Try to keep this short.
Show...dont tell. Dc uses lots of exposition, marvel does not. Dc has big ideas, but they dont translate well to film unless you have a smat director like nolan. Snyder understands visual metaphors bur his movies dont move, they dont accelerate, every scene has pacing problems because they go from 0 to conviluted before dialog can even hit your brain. Nolan kbows how do this effectively where snyder gets caught up in symbolism.
Basically snyder makes beautil still images, nolan makes living breathing stories. So im not putting snyder down, hes just not the right guy such "deep" symbolic allegorical metaplots.
Casting just doesnt work. DC is picking from a very small pool because they want to pretend that celebrity is still relevant, that names translate to movie quality. It doesnt, as green lantern showed, the fact christian bale jumped ship after tdkr. This is probably marvels only solid strength. Once mcu got some momentum they picked actors based on their compatibility with the source material. Marvel took washups and nobodies and built them into somebodies, and when actors like terrence howard rebeled mcu cast him out and upgraded to don cheadle. Mcu had the balls to change cast whereas Dc makes bad casting choices like Cavil and gadot and sticks with them for better worse...usually worse.
DC gaves us Ahnald Schwarzenegger as mr freeze, MCU gave us RDJ and sam jackson.
One last thing. Mcu got off to a rocky start but starting with hulk reboot they learned from each one and got better and better. MCU put out iron man thor and cap and werent sure which if any were going to stick. Iron man was the most successful and so thats why all the phase 2 are basically copies of ironman because they work. DC however doesnt learn from their mistakes. TDK worked, mos kinda worked...green lantern did not...im worried that SS is thew GL because its trying to edgy and funny when people want heroics or they want drama.
DC has no vision, just greed.
Brilliant
They should take their time. And they should follow the themes of the characters.
Batman is the dark hero story you need
Marvel laid out what works and what didn't work so it should been easy to surpass them.
lol acting like Marvel movies aren't shit. why would watch a movie series where every movie has no real conclusion. The problem lies in marvel movies being so formulaic they're boring, but they make money. DC keeps trying to reinvent the wheel and falls flat on their face. the sooner cinematic universes die the sooner we get better movies.
>I don't know what I'm talking about: The Post
How does someone get everything wrong?
This post makes a ton of sense, so this of course means it will be ignored and mocked by DC fags.
They are hiring hacks to make their movies.
Marvel gave Guardians to James Gunn. They knew he has no experience with big budget movies but knew he was not a hack.
Was with you right up till the last sentence. Not seeing the vision isn't the same as it not being there.
In years to come, I'm confident that MoS > BvS > JL will come to be called the Snyder trilogy and the the story(both in-universe as well as the meta social commentary) will come to be appreciated for how visionary they really are.
Snyder is a shit director
why they keep hiring him?
The problem for the movie for me were the following:
- Musical cues
- Batman's VERY REPETATIVE and undeveloped theme
- No reason as to why Bruce Wayne went to Metropolis
- Jack actor's shitty acting and throwaway
- Jessie Eisenberg played that weird kid who spazes in school that no one talks too
- Gal Gadot was plastic
- Ben Affleck was a B-
- Let's be honest here, Batman looked like a shitty Halloween costume
- Henry Cavill portraying a constipated, overly depressed "superman"
- Senator Finch just out of the blue being suspicious of Lex Jr.
- The email scene
- ALL OF THE METAHUMAN CAMEOS
- Doomsday = ninja turtle
- Literally zack snyder is the god of making cgi look fake as shit
- The over dramatic script (Bruce Wayne: "I failed him in life. I won't fail him in death." Like dude, you barely even knew him. You tried to fucking kill him
That's the jist of it... but theres a hella lot more. Ben Affleck is a parody of Batman. Gal Gadot is Wonder Woman's barbie doll. Henry Cavill is a C+ as Superman. Overall I applaud Hack Synder for literally bringing a 5 year old's action figure orgi to life, but for people like me who actually enjoy good acting, plot, general believability and visuals/sound... this was amatuer at best. Actually, a 6 year old could have done better
dont forget they actually pitched a real batman musical. bits of which were used for that batman beyond episode
can he save DC?
fucking niggers
But let's be honest here. DC just sucks. The comics are fantastic, but Snyder's autistic vision fuck shit up...
>The UE is also doing amazing, so that should be a boost.
Source?
>What needs to be done to fix this mess?
Put it to bed for five years and reboot with a competent team at the helm.
Keep executive meddling out of the filmmaking process.
>What is WB doing wrong?
Tryin to create a franchise before creating movies
>What is WB doing right?
Taking a more ''''adult'''' approach to superhero movies
>What needs to be done to fix this mess?
Get a larger variety of directors/ writers to create these films. Do what marvel does and make each film a different genre (political thriller/ heist/ coming of age).
>What needs to happen with Zack Snyder / or does he need to do differently?
He needs someone to watch over him and stop him when he tries to fill the entire movie with epic moments and shitty pacing
>Show...dont tell. Dc uses lots of exposition,
Kek, do you even know what you're talking about? Show me some exposition scenes from MoS or BvS? Mean while in CACW zemo goes on an expositional speech about his no depth motivations even though there were 2 prior scenes that show it.
Tell me how does Snyder's films "don't move" be specific.
>DC has no vision
You obviously didn't get BvS and it's meta texual and social commentary.
You're another loud mouth dipshit trying to seem like he has a point by parroting some popular perceptions while having no clue what you're talking about.
lol it's behind killing joke.
...
It's true though.
They delayed BvS for a whole year to 'adjust' it, it underwent massive reshoots, including the stupid Justice League cameos - possibly even Doomsday was tacked on to give it a bigger finale.
Suicide Squad has suffered the same fate, there's Ayer's original interesting-sounding version we'll never get to see ever and the bastard creation of WB execs born from four months of rushed reshoots and editing that's now in cinemas.
Hiring Snyder was a mistake, but Ayer's a good writer and director. Clearly WB don't know what the fuck they're doing and need to stop pissing in the soup.
What no response? your simplified understanding doesn't see the big picture.
>It's a BvS h8r has makes an incoheren post episode.
>possibly even Doomsday was tacked on to give it a bigger finale.
Doubt it, the all powerful vs all good is core to the movie.
Knightmare sequence and JL 'cameos' were exceptionally forced though.
Yeah, *now* it is, It was number 1 for the past two weeks.
Is that an indication of big money? Are a lot of people buying movies off of amazon?
SJW's/Feminazis/Marvel cucks are to blame for the bad reviews.
rip
This guy is right. The scores on Rotten Tomatoes is bullshit.
Can't speak for everyone, but that's where I got my copy.
i hope everyday you wake up you look in the bathroom mirror
and realize that there's nothing for you today
just like yesterday
and the stain on your clothes reminds you of that dream you had with that special someone
but realize that there's no one in your bed
and you have to wash the sheet covers again
and you're out of detergent
and wonder why the sink is wet since you haven't turned on the faucet
but suddenly realize it's your own tears
I don't know, that whole third act of 'hey look it's Wonder Woman' and 'Death of Superman' being rushed through in a matter of minutes felt really, REALLY forced to me. It didn't gel with the rest of the film at all.
If you told me the version slated for 2014 was meant to be around two hours long, and climax with the Batman/Superman fight, the warehouse rescue scene and Superman paying Lex a visit in his penthouse a la 'Lex Luthor Man of Steel', I'd believe you.
WB needs to either have confidence in their choice of directors, let them pursue their vision and stop meddling, or give up on the whole cinematic universe thing and just focus on making individual movies.
Okay. I'm not convinced that backs up your original statement is all.
As a point of fact, it wasn't my assertion originally, but I did just google this up:
comicbook.com
Really? I listen to fans when it comes to comics- I haven't picked up a marvel one in months, while I'm all over DC
Worst part is, I'm a marvelfag
His wife is a big-shot at WB. That's literally the only reason he gets work.