Insurance is a scam. we have to, all of us, STOP paying for it

insurance is a scam. we have to, all of us, STOP paying for it.

The insurance industry has it down to a science. Actuaries figure out exactly what things will cost to replace or services that will be necessary then they charge us for those things IN FULL.

we also pay for the 2.4 million people employed in the insurance industry, the massive CEO salaries and bonuses, the profits they need to keep their shares rising and the infrastructure to house 2.4 million workers.

we have the tech now to just collectively pay for the things that need to be replaced or the services used by our people. we already do.

we have to convince people to

STOP PAYING FOR INSURANCE

I totally agree. If everyone paid a membership fee to their doctor or hospital then there would be no need for insurance.

exactly! we have the technology now to do it much more efficiently.

thats actually already a thing is called "concierge medicine"
but lots of dr's dont like that title so they call it VIP or direct primary care so it sounds more relatable and available to anyone which it is.

the issue i would say is for sure insurance companies paying out options for shit that they know we dont need atm- hence how they make a profit they know some cavities and eye appointments dont cost a damn thing when we pay Xamount every month, but the reason the insurance companies started to do this is bc of the increase in federal money money going towards health care.
medicare and medicaide showed be curtailed significantly so that dr.s can start taking $.80 for the$1.20 that we are charged and they would still come out making more profit bc the regulatory burden on heath providers is so extreme that paying for and dealing with the rules and paper work and all that is very difficult.

good points. i guess it should start with a demand to reform health regulations to be more understandable by regular people, non-lawyers.

yeah the only issue is public education most people dont give a fuck or care about the actual cost of things just as long as their co pay is zero dollars today but many health care providers would gladly have you pay upfront in cash and then they could charge much less bc the insane amount of paper work that is required by insurance companies and haggling with the insurance companies over stupid shit like "are you sure they didnt break their leg in the neighbors yard??"" and shit like that would all be dropped so the dr's could do their job for longer and give patients better treatment.

i think tela medicine(like over the internet) will be a huge factor in this and be a good promoter for a more personal sort of membership relationship between patients and drs like you were saying

we need to open people's eyes and get them to understand the scam of insurance. that will help too

Only a fucking idiot who has perfect health and no sense of the real world can say something as retarded as "insurance is a scam". Not everyone has hundreds of dollars to pay for medical treatment and medications.

hey dummy it's only that high because of insurance already having their tentacles in everything.

we already collectively pay for all the services our community needs. if we didn't, the insurance industry would not have a massive 2.4 million employees.

all i'm saying is lets collectively pay for it directly, with no middlemen who provide zero services.

>We have the tech now

Retard fuckin NEET spotted.

when the government promised to give kids student loans for college nearly all colleges across the country increased tuition prices and lowered the bar to get more people to apply

the same thing is happening with insurance companies, they are being incentivized to be predatory and shitty bc the government is paying them money via medicare/medicaid

good guess but wrong. what makes you think so? the internet allows us to do all of this stuff ourselves.

Good luck on trying to completely overhaul systems that have been in place for decades because muh opinion. I bet you're underage.

we just need to make everyone aware first. then it'll be easy. spread the word

Sounds like you don't even understand what medicare and medicaid is, dumbass

We're not talking about just paying out of pocket. We're talking about insurance companies fucking the doctors over causing prices to go up and trying to make huge profits causing prices to go up. If we cut out the middle man and did a membership to a doc or hospital that covered the same shit or more for less money doctors could do their job instead of saying you need x but your insurance won't cover it so here is some Advil and a bandaid good fucking luck.

sounds like you dont even have a proper response.

feds negociate with insurance companies "set prices" for shit and the gov gives money to medicare recipients now have money that is ONLY accepted by insurance companies who already have certain health care providers in their pockets bc the creation of medicare/medicaid le to encroachment already

now you tell me when has the federal government ever been good at setting prices?
also what government program has EVER costed less over time?

oh thats right never

yeah exactly. we are well aware of this now. if we don't stop it now it's only going to get worse as they dig their heels in.

end the insurance middlemen

i don't see how you can defend insurance. they makes sure we pay for everything, obviously. if they're off by even a little, what we pay goes up to compensate for it. and they provide no service directly.

free healthcare.. thoughts about that?

>insurance is a scam.
I've read this thread and I can only conclude that collectively you have no understanding of either statistics or the concept of shared risk.

The total premiums paid would always have to add up to more than the total cost of all healthcare (or anything else insured, like auto or flood risk) in any one year.

That's what insurance is. it works on the principle that not all people will need to have claims paid in any one year, so that some people will pay something for receiving nothing.

worse coverage
service rationing
higher tax rates on everyone
you are right. not op but this is what i believe is going on

that's a separate issue. i think if we just collectively pay for the servifces of our people (as we're already doing) the money we save by not having middlemen can be used to compensate doctors and nurses better instead of millions of employees of the insurance industry.

if that were true then we insurance companies wouldn't have profits.

what's really happening is actuaries figure out projects costs of services and then insurance companies make sure everyone who's buying insurance pays for it all.

if they're wrong or off, they adjust and we pay more.

Us pay in general 17.7% of GDP
Sweden pays 10% of GDP and gets free coverage.

enjoy your insurance

all i'm suggesting is we simply collectively pay for our people's health services like we are now, just pay less because we do so without the middlemen we're paying for.

sure, that's because we pay for an entire insurance industry of 2.4 million people

Yep. Economic dead weight.

>ou are right. not op but this is what i believe is going on
Thank you.

I'd go on to say that, as a Bong, the USA healthcare system is also, doubly fucked by the attitudes of the public. Let me explain.

1. Because of no-win no-fee, doctor's insurance against malpractice is incredibly expensive. They have to pass that cost on. Also, to avoid negligence, the will often perform every test and give every drug under the sun, to avoid malpractice suits
2. Your juries award punitive costs. Twelve men see and injured patient (accidents and incompetence do happen) so they think "let's punish this mean hospital that makes money from patients" and promptly award damages that make the injured party richer then their wildest dreams of a lottery win
3. Your drug companies can advertise directly to patients. so patients go to their doctors and demand the latest, expensive drugs. Because of 1 & 2 above, doctors promptly prescribe.
4. Patients are under the impression that they should always have the very latest, most expensive treatment. because of 2. above, they will often get it, even if a low-tech solution would also work.

Thats usually the case with tax funded healthcare too, everyone pays in via tax not all people need healthcare all the time.

The problem with the US is the fact its ingrained into your society, hospitals jack up costs, drs force unneeded tests and treatments to pad bills, insurance companies jack up prices to reflect this and the cycle repeats. The only ones getting fucked are the people.

Bunch of shills in this thread trying to blindly push single payer.
At least the shill B Nye threads have slowed.
I have become convinced liberalism is a mental illness.

Read my post again
>The total premiums paid would always have to add up to more than the total cost of all healthcare
the difference is the profits

why can't we just use the money that we currently pay to insurance companies, directly or in the form of lower salary in companies, to directly pay medical professionals? why is that something wrong?

yes, it already does add up to more obviously. are you on the side of getting rid of insurance? maybe i just misunderstood

Fine. You'd need to administer it. if it were done by the government then it would be universal healthcare, and that's communism. So you have to use the market to provide the service. And the market needs to make a profit. Which is where we came in.

Before Obamacare, you had that option.

I agree. This is why universal healthcare is so important. Insurance will always be expensive because the companies are hungry for profits. Universal healthcare would render insurance unnecessary.

Lol dummy.

we can do it locally rather than federally. and no, it doesn't need to make a profit.

enjoy your corporate monopoly dipshit

the option is not viable until we get out from under the insurance industry bubble. we need everyone to wake up and see insurance for what it is.

i don't see it as universal necessarily. not any more than it already is. we would collectively pay into the community needs (as we do now) but without the middlemen.

for non health, if you have a house you pay a certain fee that we determine would exceed the amount needed to replace houses that has happened in the past. if you don't want in, then you get no option to replace your house if you need to. you'll have to do it out of pocket.

>are you on the side of getting rid of insurance? maybe i just misunderstood
I'm not actually on either side - as I said, I'm a Bong and we have a free-at-the-point-of-use healthcare system that appears to be broken and will never be able to keep up with spiralling costs and ever-older populations.

There is no easy answer.

One of the other issues with any large institutions (or series of institutions) like healthcare and hospitals that employ millions and cost billions, is that they can lose sight of their original purpose and start acting in the interests of their employees and manager 9and shareholders, in the case of private healthcare). With universal healthcare, you also have the problem that the government runs it, and the government is full of politicians - and the last thing you need near any system that needs to be efficient and provide a service is politicians.

i'm not saying universal is the answer. if we simply pay what we're paying now directly to health providers like hospitals and doctors, everyone benefits (except the insurance industry, but fuck 'em)

>we can do it locally rather than federally
The issue then becomes the post-code lottery effect - the areas of maximum deprivation, that can least afford healthcare, are the ones with the highest costs (and premiums). You need to share the risk over the biggest pool to keep costs to a minimum

interesting thought. that does make sense. i guess the biggest cost in that scenario, since we easily have the technology to do a shared pool, then becomes investigations into people abusing the system.

>if we simply pay what we're paying now directly to health providers like hospitals and doctors, everyone benefits
You're then asking your health service to also effectively become an insurance system, to employ statisticians and actuaries to calculate the risks and the costs that the system might incur to work out the next year's premiums.

the alternative would be to give the healthcare system a chunk of cash and then calculate the premiums going forward by adding up all the costs for the last year, dividing by the population and sending out the premiums. Imagine the reactions if the health service had been involved in an epidemic, plus an new, expensive cancer cure and the premiums suddenly doubled because that was what had been spent.

>good luck making a radical change that has happened in other countries.
Not an argument

Yeah.
However, most of the left just regurgitate the propaganda, without even the ability to think.
The ones I have engaged, have admitted they got their replies from left wing sites.

agreed but on 3 and 4 I think the problem has a different cause if not additional causes that also play a big role in the higher prices and unnecessary treatment and patient sentiment.

there are lots of regulatory records that jam up the medical and prescription administration or new discovery process. there is a lot of and I mean a lot of paper work that needs to be done for new drugs and for drs to file for patients treatment. and this increased with the more money being given through welfare bc the insurance companies have to deal with the bureaucracy so then charge more to the dr who then needs to higher IT people, security people, and scribes to handle all the filing and paper work and the compliance of the taxes and all that good stuff. and bc of this both the government and insurance companies are more then willing to grow the amount of work they are involved in so that they get bigger and therefor require even more of our money

move to canada or britian or france or sweden then so you can have your government monopoly and rationed services higher taxes and decreased technology

i hear the same exact thing said about the right. wake up

shill are everywhere bc computing has gotten cheaper and AI and scripts more advanced just gotta deal with it, but i agree with you

what if we all just stopped paying for insurance? what would happen?

You would be uninsured. If you fell ill you would have to foot the bill for all of your treatment. Some people might not be able to afford their treatment. They might die.
Other people would not become ill. They would be financially better off.

thanks man, definitely a reasoned response. i'm not sure what the answer is, but insurance definitely needs to end asap.

>i hear the same exact thing said about the right. wake up
best response I dont believe the user you replied to was being "that guy" it just sounds like he was alluding to that type of reaction but I completely agree too many people see a "left vs right answer" rather then a "why is what happening happening" and "what changes should occur?" and "how/why" should they occur?"

EVERYONE, all at once. at the same time. not just me faggot

you're saying doctors would stop working? come on now. you're buying into the insurance PR campaign

>not just me faggot
Oh, nice ad hominem. Added real value and weight to your response

If you read my response again, it covers what would happen TO EVERYONE (because you seem to like capslock)

so doctors are just going to stop helping people? they will go homeless and live on the streets?

not him, right now doctors get paid through insurance. so their bill would have to be adjusted. most people would not be able to pay outrageous insurance bills so they'd have to adapt.

>you're saying doctors would stop working?
No. I'm saying that they would have to charge to patients for the costs of their healthcare, the drugs, the equipment and their time. And the very sick or those with complications might not be able to afford their care, so they might die.

The alternative is the government pays for the hospitals, the drugs and the healthcare staff; they would have to put up taxes to pay for it and you have universal healthcare

what would stop the hcp's from just upcharging all the prices? it would lead to the gov being in control still in the exact same ways no? your right there its not super easy but simple could be done why not just do health savings accounts that are tax deductable, to a certain extents, but then stop the social security and medicaide and let the people spend their own damn money and take income tax at the end of the year not automatically that way people know how to be more frugal vs just being given less of their own money, this would make people freak the fuck out though about not having a hard floor of welfare

Hospitals and businesses all pay insurance too, don't forget.

or we all collectively pay like we do now

health savings accounts only help the people who are making more than they need to feed their families. and it only really works without insurance to drive up costs already.

>most people would not be able to pay outrageous insurance bills
What about the guys with cancer, or heart failure?

What would stop would be the elective surgery like fixing botched cosmetic surgeries, or gender reassignments. You want that stuff? You pay for it.

there are cash only hospitals already a major surgery center in the country is a prepaid only service in oklahoma. the model is successful but money is more available by taking welfare from people

yeah agreed. or we start a pool for people who want to fund those things. or hell, use kickstarter an patreon.

cancer should come from a collective pool, as it does now, because anyone can get it.

>or we start a pool for people who want to fund those things
There's a technical name for a pool like that. it's called insurance.

its not our job nor the governments job to provide heathcare for everyone. I think you have the wrong goals in mind

Every single service that the UK has sold off to private companies from its "monopoly" has turned to shit. Its not in the interest of the government to fuck you over, private companies however....

Services aren't rationed and we have the same technology as you.

yeah except without the fucking overhead, 2.4 million employees, jacked up costs, and driving quest for profits

we already pay for all services the people get. i'll say it again. we already pay. anyone who pays insurance pays for all the medical help our people get. it's already done. go back in time and make that case if you want, but it's already happening.

the only thing that's saving us is the people who can most pay for the services collectively (currently inefficiently through insurance payments) are the least likely to need the medical care.

your services are rationed thought old people are told that life saving services arent covered bc they might die and that is decided by your gov which decides on hc. also the reason why your private versions are shit is bc everyone already pays into the federal one an dso everyone is trying to be cheap bc the money is already taken away from them automatically. however if that money wasnt taken automatically i bet you that more people would want to use private insurance. also yall pay for shit that never gets used like vagina cancer service for a single man
nope I wont make that bigger and people who get care get care through tax money and shit like that. there is always more hc services to provide just like money it is never enough for some people and it is a bet not a garauntee

>Its not in the interest of the government to fuck you over
But it is in the interest of politicians to avoid being responsible for anything - they want to be able to wring their hands and point impotently at the poor service that these companies are providing, despite raking in huge profits.

Evidence - any privatised service.

No, I'm not a Labour-voting communist, because the alternative, nationalisation, doesn't work either, as we then have huge, inefficient bureaucracies, central command and control structures and arse-covering of the highest order.

And on that note, it's time for my supper.

Thanks - this has been interesting.

people are being chosen anyway, one way or the other. right now it's only people who have a current use to the agriculture/industrial system enough to have a job inside it. which you're ok with presumably because you fit into the system reasonably well.

plus old people really shouldn't get many treatments. it's silly.

but you made some valid points about the increase in hc. we don't want everyone running to the doctor with a sniffle. thanks for clarifying.

thanks for contributing to the thread. enjoy your limey tasteless food ha ha

>plus old people really shouldn't get many treatments. it's silly.
thats not the governments decision though. if grandma can pay for her risky medicine so she can scrape out 6 more months of walking around thats her decision not yours or the govs.
>but you made some valid points about the increase in hc. we don't want everyone running to the doctor with a sniffle. thanks for clarifying.
yeahs np. thats why while i do agree in a way people are picking and choosing already but that is many ways is up to our own responsibility with the choice of making a high paying wage or not and choosing to save for emergencies and we.
obviously this is ignoring genetic lottery but that happens no matter what so why not keep the cash in our hand remove the fed and insurance company buearacry and if there is left over goodwill we can help people personally rather then through the fed which has a poor record and high value of leaks/wasted resources

we soultions seem very much the same I think the above would fulfill both of our concerns as far as we are aware im sure there are things that need to be accounted for that we dont even know about

Do any of you work for insurance company's? Well, my wife does, and every single one of you is just fucking retarded.

The people who decide to keep the insurance scam running, politicians, know what it is. They see it for what it is, but they're paid off to ignore it.

>we can help people personally
yeah this makes sense. i mean shift the choice to locally valued traits like personality and charm rather than a global (or nationally at least) set of work-traits.

you get sick, you automatically go into a system of kickstarter-like health care funding. only the most liked survive.

would you survive user?

yes, we just need the people to wake up and see it too. once that happens then we can demand action.

They give 80 year old women breast cancer treatment all the fucking time, it doesn't matter how old you are assuming that they can do something more often than not they will.

You pay private in this country to choose when and where you want treatment to happen, its to jump ahead of the queue. And like you say we get everything anyway so if we are prepared to wait private insurance isn't at all needed.

The problem with the NHS is mismanagement for like the last 30 odd years. Not claiming back treatment costs from foreigners, the boom of EU nationals in the country and cutting off getting qualified doctors from elsewhere in the world (ie india, like we did in the 60s 70s) thanks to being in the EU.

additionally we can let the rich contribute tax-deductible amounts toward anyone's health care and let people vote on it. provide a picture and some text about your predicament and hope for the best.

i believe i'd be selected for saving. would you?

UKIP you lost - get out

nope but I would gladly go in debt to save my family or my own life. I am studying to working to save money and skills that I can trade for a good amount of money later on. life is not a for sure thing and not even the gov can save me so be it.
>You pay private in this country to choose when and where you want treatment to happen, its to jump ahead of the queue.
i would rather do this 24/7 whenever I want and also keep my money so that i only pay for me and my family and those i choose to help not be forced to help out junkies and stupid moms crying for antibiotics for a viral infection that doesnt require antibiotics

both versions have death only 1 version of these choices provides less services then the cost of the service by a greater margin.

>They give 80 year old women breast cancer treatment all the fucking time,
But with the treatment she might live another 20 years. Are you saying that we should have age-limited treatments?

But I agree that anyone who is overweight, or smokes, or drinks to excess, or undertakes risky activities should have to buy insurance and not be treated as a normal patient.

that would be cool that exist but only in religious communities some of the only people who are still wanting to help others to that extent 1 such prgram is called medishare and its like you decide when to "ask" for help but publishing what bill past the amount you can afford and the other members can see your "profile" and see if you are telling the truth bc you have to have been submitting physical records every year.

>But I agree that anyone who is overweight, or smokes, or drinks to excess, or undertakes risky activities should have to buy insurance and not be treated as a normal patient.
then the government is literally micromanaging peoples lives, which is spook shit. but in private insurance? ya those type of people should pay a shit load more for sure, thats why preexisting coverage is retard like selling flood insurance to a old boat house on a shitting bog for the same price as the house on mountain(healthy person with n/a health negatives)

explain where we've gone astray. i'll listen

Public and private both have you paying for that junkie in one way or another.

Either through premiums charged to cover uninsured patients, or through just paying for public healthcare.

Both might have you pay your entire life without ever using the service granted for paying in.

One of these services doesn't give the option of a company to hyperinflate prices.

exactly. we already pay for everything. junkies don't pay for insurance but still get help. this increases doctor rates which in turn increases what you need to pay for insurance, either way.

No the guy I was replying to said that the UK government decides not to treat based on age. rationed treatments

But what about the billionaires who siphon money out of the middle class through the insurance industry? How will they be able to afford to keep their mansions, yachts, and private jets? Won't somebody please think of the billionaires?