Is free will a myth?

Is free will a myth?

in calvinism it is

in armenianism it's all there is

If determinisim holds its at best a moot point

Any secular arguments one way or the other?

Care to elaborate? Wouldn't determinism mean free will doesn't exist?

in true secularism, there is no universal morality, so free will is the end-all.

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And in nihilism morality is a lie, so what is free will there?

Feminine penis is a myth.

Free will means you have the option. Determinism says all previous events leads to the result.

>in true secularism, there is no universal morality

Are you saying that a lack of objective morality means free will exists?

i'm saying that if man decides his own morality due to the absence of a universal morality, he becomes the master of his fate.

Says the guy who never encountered a cigar sized clitoris

I disagree, I choose my own morality and yet I'm incapable of doing anything at this moment besides post this silly-yet-sound reply.

are you being held captive and forced to argue about morality all day and night on the internet?!

It is. The universe is completely deterministic.

But if you believe that, your life will be shittier than if you had believed in free will. So free will is not a myth. ;)

Fair point.

>all day and night

No, just now. I'd like to elaborate.

I'm simply bound by two things:

- my desires (I desire to post this)
- my capabilities (I can post this)

Both of which are of course out of my control. To give an example: I'm incapable of enjoying the smell of sour milk on a whim. I'm also unable to post this message in artistic Chinese language on a whim.

bump

Why? Any mood you experience was influenced by previous events beyond control, therefore the result has nothing to do with you. It will be the same.

Not entriely, out subconscious makes most of our decisions but we can consciously override it in most cases. We may rationalize a decision but we may not truly know why we still made it. Our subconscious is at the wheel, we just help navigate.

who dat

Technically there is no such thing as free will because everything has a cause

The whole universe is just running off a domino affect by the big bang and would always follow this path due to the rules of the universe (gravity etc)

You do everything for a reason and those reasons are chemical and physical and those things happen due to previous things that have happened, therefore all you do is predetermined

If determinism says all previous events lead to a certain result, then doesn't that mean there is only one option? Don't options only exist if there is more than one?

Of course not, who else would be pulling the strings? You can feel compelled to do something, but that's still your free will talking.

Detereminism and free will are compatible since the future is unknown

Limits of cognition and human memory/perception allows for free will, determinism makes it moot.

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Yes. And religion is a joke. We are all pawns controlled by something greater: Memes. DNA of the soul.

So you're saying free will exists, but that it's just the illusion of choice?

I was only the first post

I think free will and choice exists, as well as determinism, the future is already decided. But nobody can know the future, and even if the future was known the actions that follow would also already have been determined.

Determinism isn't fully true - quantum mechanics allows for true randomness. But that's different from free will.

I think it comes down to what you interpret to be "you" making your decisions. You might not be fully predictable because of quantum randomness stuff, but is that randomness you? I think we need to understand what consciousness is before we can answer if there is free will or not. But it's unlikely.

>quantum mechanics allows for true randomness
Maybe I don't understand the scientific definition of "random", but is there a reason everyone seems to think that quantum mechanics isn't deterministically caused by something? Just because we can't accurately predict every subatomic interaction doesn't mean it's not determined. Our vision could just be fuzzy.

Doesnt have to be an illusion, just has to be seen as available. At best moot.

To quote Einstein, "I dont believe god plays with dice". Because we cannot predict it does not make it random. (einstein was athiest/agnostic)

So we can't be entirely sure, but the current theory and experiments both agree that outcomes are random. In current theory, the interactions themselves aren't whats random - it's measuring the results that introduces the randomness.

"Stop telling God what to do with his dice." -Niels Bohr

If the randomness produces predictible results, it is not random. Quantum level gives rize to our perceptive level. Because we dont understand the quantum level yet does not neccesarily make it random

To clarify, what I mean is that our intuition for the world is based on classical mechanics, because that's what we grow up experiencing. But classical mechanics is wrong at heart.
Taking the stance that things should fit our intuition is flawed, because our intuition is based on flawed physics.

...

It's not perfectly predictable. It only seems that way because of the law of large numbers - with enough randomness, things average out to seem determined. This averaging out is what we perceive, which is why it doesn't seem random.

We can't 100% prove its random, but there's more reason to think it's random than to think it isn't.

To clarify: the interaction produces a listof possible outcomes and probabilities of each, all at the same time. But actually measuring the outcome is what makes it pick one from that list.

no, free will exists,
it's just harder to use then you realize

Free will can be understood as 'the ability to do otherwise', which is understood as a counterfactual. If I had chosen to X, I would have. So determinism seems to say the past and the laws of nature predetermine future events. To actually do something different, it seems that I would have to either change the distant past, or change a law of nature, but this is not true. In the understanding of the counterfactual we can change what we hold fixed. So if you think to do something different means breaking a law or changing the distant past, you would be holding fixed that we are in the universe with those laws and that past, but we can also understand the counterfactual to mean that we are in a different universe with a different past or laws, in which case there is no problem for us to do something different than we actually did.

At this point, I would have to say humans, futivly or not, is after absolute laws. At the human and larger level, we've been able to figure it out due to measurement tools. At less than human perception, it gets trickier and trickier, our tools that measure have to have less and less tolerance for failure. This requires more and more social structure. There's a certain point where the macro doesnt seem to jive with the micro. Maybe we havent rationed enough, maybe lack of knowledge.

That mountain of crap aside, if determinism is true free will is a moot point.

To chose requires a level of awareness.

Without the ability to read, a book is as good as a doorstep

Yes i assume we have that level of awareness. The question is do we have the ability to adjust or change that awareness so that we could have done things different than we actually did or will do.