Is the European Union worth it or should they end it?

Is the European Union worth it or should they end it?

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The issue of the EU is that it overextended it's self. The developing economies of the Mediterranean and Eastern Europe shouldn't have the same credit-score as economic juggernauts like Germany, it's a recession waiting to happen. The the EU had been more conservative with who gets let into the Union, ensuring that economic equilibrium exists between states before they join the Schengen/Euro/Free-Trade zone would also solve the problems of inter-European immigration, brain drain, and economic imperialism.

Also unelected bureaucrats from a foreign country shouldn't have authority to writ non-economic laws for other countries.

>German
>pro eu
Germans are basically a nation of shills at this point
Also all his positive eu points, freedom of movement, free market etc can easily exist without the eu and do for many countries in the world

This channel is funded by George Soros, just so you know.

I travel a lot and there is one question I always
ask a pro-EU/federation person.
>Russia conquers a small Estonian village full of Russians
>Estonia declares the state of war and defense of its territory and sovereignty
>Conflict starts
>Soldiers are needed and you are not in a job needed for the war
Will you join the army to defend the sovereignty of Estonia and fight through Estonian villages against the Russians? If a draft got enacted, would you use all kinds of ways to dodge it?
I never, not a single time, got yes an answer, as suddenly Estonians and Germans werent "the same" anymore. Any kind of solidarity or duty towards the state is gone, when they really have to do something besides talking. They surely wouldnt pay a 10%+ extra tax when the next economy falters under the euro (which will happen quite soon) and it goes on and on.
Thats where you know that any kind of federation is doomed to fail, and that doesnt even touch the other points of political reality here.

>Also all his positive eu points, freedom of movement, free market etc can easily exist without the eu and do for many countries in the world
Name one example that isn't a special case like Switzerland-Liechtenstein or some memery like that. But something anywhere near the scope of the EU.

>Will you join the army to defend the sovereignty of Estonia and fight through Estonian villages against the Russians?
Yes.
Next question.

>Also unelected bureaucrats
You mean doubly elected bueraucrats, because everyone involved in EU lawmaking is elected at least once.
Seriously, there is a lot wrong with the EU. A lot we won't fix because anti-EU criticism is primarily made with hollow nonsense like this from people talking out of their ass.

Makes you the first one.
The moment anyone tries to draft me for any war is the moment I hop the border.
Actually I also have yet to meet a German that wouldnt (try to) run when they try to draft him for an actual war.

Essentially you would get a KuK-Austrian army where everything falls apart once shit actually goes down.
Canada. Japan. South Korea. Norway. Iceland. Australia (the guy youre replying to)
All rich industrial nations, that are sovereign and only bound by trade treaties but no larger political union in any form.

>Canada. Japan. South Korea. Norway. Iceland. Australia (the guy youre replying to)
None of those have any sort of free movement agreements, what the heck are you talking about? Let alone are part of any free market area.

They have several free trade agreements and can select the countries they want to specific trade and exchange workers with.
The Australians have several FTAs with all kinds of Asian countries and the US. Japan has around 10 with all kinds of Asian countries.
>Let alone are part of any free market area.
Turns out that you dont need a common market to make trade agreements as the Aussie pointed out.

Actually if you wanted to make a comparable point, the only remotly comparable common economic area is ASEAN, which is countries with at least a common market, though no freedom of movement, I still wait for a exmple of that existing.
And guess what? They are also increasingly politically integrating over it. Because you can't actually have one without the other contrary to what people with no understanding of economy like to pretend.

>They have several free trade agreements
Which is not at all the same thing as having a common market and freedom of movement something which he claimed "many countries outside the EU have".

A free-trade-agreement is not even remotly similar to what the EU countries have with eachother in trade relations.

And you dont need a common market with a political union. Look at NAFTA.

NAFTA is not a common market.

Australia has free trade with china. Usa. Japan. Korea. Combined they are much larger than the eu.
We have freedom of movement with nz which could be expanded to any other nation if it was beneficial just as Aus and nz work together to negotiate free trade with other nations
Individual treaties require less work to establish and can factor industries etc in each country specifically instead of the eu trying to mash a treaty out for many diverse economies
There is no benefit to the eu except some political agenda eu politicians are trying to push

>Australia has free trade with china. Usa. Japan. Korea.
Free-trade-agreements=/=a common market. jesus christ are you all economically illiratera that I have to explain how removing trade restrictions on a few select areas is not comparable to removing all barriers to trade and the movement of goods?

>We have freedom of movement with nz
Now have one with 26 other countries without a special organisation dedicated to managing the bueraucracy of that and come back to me about how we don't need the EU.

In fact your entire attempt of examples is utterly ludicrous because you try to pretend that comprehensive free-trade-agreements between one country with a handvoll of other countries is comparable to making bilateral relations between 27! different countries and thus 729! different trade agreements that would have to be made for achiev a pale imitation of the EU common market.

End it.

We need less democracy and more federalization you fool!

More federilization would lead to more democracy though. Can't really have one without the other.

The EU is a communist German empire

You're thinking of the other union you're about to "join"

>a communist german empire devised by france
Can't make this shit up.

The EU is like the 1776 America with the Articles of Confederation. Just make an Army of the EU, increase more federal authority, and basically unify it into a superstate. If anyone resists send and army to crush them. Also stop being liberal cucks, liberalism=weakness and faggotry, do with Lincoln did, when the South tried to leave the Union

My point is free trade and freedom of movement can exist without the eu. It doesnt need to be a common market.
Each euro nation can easily manage 27 ftas just as australia does.

>A free-trade-agreement is not even remotly similar to what the EU countries have with each other in trade relations.
Yes.
But the countries, with gouvernments elected by the nations people, can select what they want and what they offer for certain agreements. A common market needs some kind of political control over the whole market and, as shown by the EU, even expand way over the boundaries and form a political union that some people, like me, may not agree with.
>Actually if you wanted to make a comparable point, the only remotly comparable common economic area is ASEAN, which is countries with at least a common market,
I was just making an example on what kind of trade agreements there are, that dont require a political union.
>I still wait for a exmple of that existing.
There are several. Espeically in the Commonwealth. AUS-NZ, etc.
Nafta is a free trade area
>jesus christ are you all economically illiratera that I have to explain how removing trade restrictions on a few select areas is not comparable to removing all barriers to trade and the movement of goods?
No. You just seem unable to understand that some people dont want a common market, that is bound to some form of political federation/union.
>Now have one with 26 other countries without a special organisation dedicated to managing the bueraucracy of that and come back to me about how we don't need the EU.
Define "need". Iceland is apparently not sinking into the sea with the EU while Greece is.
Apparently Canada is holding up while the failed attempt at a common currency is killing Portugal and Spain.

A common market can help the economy more than a FTA. What it cant promise is prosperity, security and freedom for the people.
The EU and the euro have helped to boost GDP as much as youth unemployment in France or "anti terror" laws in Brussels.
Nobody says that the Eu has no economical benefits, were saying that the benfits are not worth the price.

United by our hatred for brits. Death to democracy! Bomb auf England

that pic is retarded. regions/provinces of euro countries are just as cucked as states.

The EU is shit but it's necessary. Otherwise a small country the size of a US state holds no influence on the world stage.

>My point is free trade and freedom of movement can exist without the eu. It doesnt need to be a common market.
>Each euro nation can easily manage 27 ftas just as australia does.
Except you haven't proven your point at all. because you are making false equivalences. A Free-trade agreement isn't comparable to a common market in the slightest because the latter requires much more regulations than the former and the former doesn't provide nearly as much freedom of trade as the latter.

>Each euro nation can easily manage 27 ftas just as australia does.

Australia as of now has 10! free-trade agreements. The EU memberstates would need 27 each for the EU alone and then further over 50! FTAs with all the countries the Eu already has them with too. So each Eu country would have to negotiate and manage and keep overview for the effects of over 77 FTAs compared to your 10.
Are you seriously going to keep trying to pretend thats anywhere remotly comparable?

>You just seem unable to understand that some people dont want a common market
No I don't Australia above just claimed that many other countries HAVE a common market without the EU

>Also all his positive eu points, freedom of movement, free market
Which is patently false. Free-trade agreements don't make a free market and a collection of such agreements would never anywhere near as free market as a common market area.

You think that a common market isn't needed, fine. Thats your opinion, as economist, I know you are completly wrong but your opinion is your opinion.
Claiming however we could have the same thing as we have with the EU without the EU, is factually false.

>Define "need". Iceland is apparently not sinking into the sea
Iceland benefits from the bueraucratic structure of the EU existing due to its association. A false comparison if I have ever seen one.

>What it cant promise is prosperity, security and freedom for the people.
A weird claim, its not detrimental to any of these things

What's the company chain that leads the money to Soros?

>The EU and the euro have helped to boost GDP as much as youth unemployment in France or "anti terror" laws in Brussels.
The Eu isn't responsible to youth unemployment in France or anywhere else. If anything you could blame it for not using its abilities to help alleviate the problem, and you'd be right though its a very complex issue. But its in no way shape or form responsible for these problems. In fact if anything it helps combat this problem by protecting french producers to keep their businesses alive with its trade mark protection laws which protect french producers from being crushed by cheaper competition stealing their market names.

>were saying that the benfits are not worth the price
No, the specific claim was made the we could have all the positive effects of the Eu without a bueraucratic overhead like the EU, which is wrong.

>while the failed attempt at a common currency is killing Portugal and Spain
Weird claim. Its not "killing" either of these countries and the euro isn't even related to any of their problems.
Its not even related to the problem of greece because greece was already in a huge debt crisis before joining, it just cheated with its numbers to be allowed to join and joining made these problems come out because they couldn't cheat their numbers as well anymore.
I'd agree that the situation was handled badly, but again, more of a problem of the individual nations and the general economies, not of the common currency.

>Can leave the EU
>Can't leave the US

Thus - Not independent. Your move, fag.

Do germans have some sort of "EU talking points" class you must take or do you shill for frau merkel out of some kind of nationalist fervour?

you can't compare statehood to a union of countries. states =/= countries. provinces or regions in eu coutries are not allowed to leave their country, just like states cant leave the US. go to bed sven its late over there

>or do you shill for frau merkel
This kind of commentary just tells me each time how little people complaining about the Eu actually understand about EU politics.
Merkel doesn't give a fuck about the EU, its just a tool for trans-atlantic cooperation to her.
She pays lipservice to it because its popular with the electorate and thats it.

They actually fought a civil war for independence, I think they'll go over that once you get to 2nd grade. If you make it that long without being shot.

Except the time she offered refugees unconditional asylum in all european countries without their permission

>t. thing that never happened
She isn't even giving them Asylum in germany. She even blocked out family reunion laws for all the refugees and lets the parliament keep cutting down on asyluma nd refugee rights in germany to facilitate faster deportation.

I know you n/pol/tards don't watch actual news and get all your news from your hugbox circlejerking but this is outright delusional nonsense you are spouting here.

middleeasteye.net/news/germany-expects-300000-asylum-seekers-2016-1068324522

what exactly is your point? the south isn't allowed to leave the US just like how catalonia isn't allowed to leave spain. i don't understand why you think being an EU member is comparable to being a US state. go to bed you need to be at the mosque early tommorow ahmed

>my government is unironically using tax money to pay for people to shill the EU on my favorite Czech leaf blowing forum

what a time to be alive

You realise Asylum laws and the refusal of them is illegal according to UN laws, yes? This is Merkel just saying that breaking international law isn't okay, how is this a problem?

The quota system, contrary to what you try to imply by not actually stating any clear facts and try to "implying implications" isn't forcing anyone to accept Asylum requests, but merely to take the refugees and process their information for being elligible for Asylum AT ALL.

Meanwhile in realit if Merkel had wanted to really fuck everyone else over she'd just have only taken the amount of asylum seekers required of her by international law and made the balkancucks choke on the millions left.

Not an argument

??

its a valuable trade union, a mutual trust pact
you use the same currency, open the mutual frontiers, have free trade
the backstabbing british can trust nothing but their own self-destructing selves

NATO trumps EU