Ever wonder how Americans can be patriotic and also against religious freedom? I do, all the time...

Ever wonder how Americans can be patriotic and also against religious freedom? I do, all the time. I find that hypocrisy is an important tool for understanding beliefs. It's a sign that they aren't being defined properly, and so deserve deeper investigation. Specifically, many conservatives in America don't believe in absolute religious freedom in the case of Islam. If you're one of them, why?

Other urls found in this thread:

pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/.
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

Saying "hey, we don't owe an immigrant a fucking thing, so we should control who comes over" is not even remotely similar to "you are not allowed to believe X"

But I'm pretty socially liberal, so I'm not the guy you're trying to ask.

I get where you're coming from, but I wasn't talking about immigration policy. I more so mean the people who believe we are in a war with Islam, and that it should be eradicated.

Because it should be eradicated, fuck Islam and those who believe in it

Okay, and persecuting people for their religion doesn't seem odd to you as an American?

Fair enough.

FTFY
>pic related

If they just practice it, thats fine. By eradicate it, I meant the radicalized sects of it. The people who run around slaughtering people for literally no reason other than some old fucker in a book told them to, need to be fucking wiped from the face of the planet, no matter the religion.

Their religion literally states that all non believers must be executed. A religion like that has no place in a modern society

Patriotism and religious beliefs have nothing to do with each other. No hypocrisy there.

I'm not American, but I hate Islam. I hate anything that fundamentally disagrees with my way of life, and Islam happens to be one of those things I can't agree with. I don't want to see it spreading in my country.

are u sure?

See, that's common ground. However, the vast majority of Islam doesn't practice sharia law, or commit extremists acts. Even those Muslims who favor Sharia usually don't believe in everything it might entail. These numbers are pretty revealing pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/. The same source also has data showing that the vast majority of Muslims do not support extremists. Why then is it Islam that you are against?

And the Old testament states that children who disrespect their parents should be stoned to death, among a ton of other terrible things. If Christianity has a right to move past that, why doesn't Islam?

Except America was founded on religious freedom, as it was born from religious persecution in Europe. It's also in our constitution.

Because overall most Muslims are conservative with beliefs we consider contrary to western values. You have like 5000 muslims marching in places like Germany that are pissed off at a showing of Muhammad being gay but cant even get more than 1000 to protest Islamic terrorism.

they're not against religious freedom they're against child rape and terrorism

Again, is that truly a symptom of Islam, or of the entire culture that exists in those places. You look at Muslims around the world and you find far less conservatism.

As are most Muslims, according to Pew Research Center. It is not an intrinsic belief of Islam, or a popular one.

It's both honestly.

>You look at Muslims around the world and you find far less conservatism

What? Muslims are overwhelmingly more conservative outside the West than in it.

there's over 10 countries in the world who execute gays, they are ALL Muslim countries. When polled, a huge fraction of Muslims believe in shariah law and killing apostates and homosexuals. Islam is an evil religion

We misunderstood each other. The vast majority of Muslims who are religiously conservative live in places like Afghanistan, and only make up a tiny portion of the global population - indicated by the data I linked earlier. As such, those conservative beliefs can't be a defining quality of Islam. Rather, they speak volumes about the countries that still support them.

Yes, but those countries do not represent Islam. The global population is far more significant and does not share their beliefs.

when a specific religion has a tenancy to blow up significantly more people, said religion tends to loose privileges/ rights

But it's not just limited to Afghanistan. Apostasy, gay rights, women's rights are all abysmal throughout the Islamic world, even in "moderate" places like SE Asia where female police recruits have to undergo a hymen check to see if they are still virgins.

Islamic scripture does. And killing apostates and gays is part of the religion. Sorry u lose dumbass.

>but those countries do not represent Islam.

Literally called Islamic Republics representing Islam.

Islamic scripture represents the Islamic community no more than biblical scripture represents the Christian community, see

You're right, it's not limited to, but there is a clear majority if you look at the data. This means that those things do not represent Islam as a whole, and so it's persecution for their sake is unjustified. More than that, it's unAmerican.

And that would matter if the majority of Muslims lived there. They don't.

you really think they've moved past throwing people off buildings, and stoning others to death? The Old testament is Old for a reason, it's outdated and was moved away from.

To reply to your other comment, Christians don't follow the OT, they follow the New Testament which is watered down. Christianity and the West also went through the Enlightenment and became weak. Does Islam have a New Testament or has it gone through it's own reformations and shit? No.
Most Muslims support it?
They don't have to live there. You can't act like there's only one representation of Islam. Islamic Republics are one representation of Islam, not the only one. Most do live in Asia, but Asia isn't the height of modern civilization either, certainly not SE Asia.

I think they have in many placed. For instance, my Muslim friends here in the U.S. would never do those things. Not only that, they're fairly secularized. Still, they are Muslim, and they have a right to their religion.

Moderate muslims are almost as worthless as citizens as radicals, they're welfare munchers and they will NEVER contribute more to the country they inhabit than they steal.

Fuck them all, grind them into gutter oil and sell it to china.

Because they live in the West, particularly America. Muslims in the West and especially America compared to Europe are fairly secularized, compared to the rest of the world.

Most Nazi's didn't support mass slaughter of Jews either but it was a part of their doctrine and when they gathered enough strength in numbers to cause the rest of the world a problem we had to eliminate them.
Which is exactly what we should be doing with Islam now. And when enough Christians gather to try and form their own country by force, using biblical law and terror we should stamp them out too.

Oh there are good Muslims? Too bad. Fuck 'em. And shame on them.
There were plenty of "good Nazi's" in Germany too.

Islam takes away everything that makes you American. That is individuality and self responsibility.

Islam is a Religion as much as Communism is an economic theory.
It is a collectivist way of live with its own set of rules and the complete opposite of what the US stands for.

Yes, that was my point. Christians don't do those things anymore, as most Muslims don't do the things in their religious texts anymore. Still, Islam is behind in that regard. Do the religion not deserve the chance to continue to develop/improve? And, more importantly to this thread, doesn't taking that away go against the ideals of America itself?

Also no, most Muslims are not in support of strict sharia law, according to data provided by the pew research center.

Finally, your argument is like saying Rome represents Catholicism as a whole, and sometimes even Christianity. In some ways yes, but not in the ways that matter to this discussion.

And that is exactly my point. It doesn't suddenly become a new religion in those cases. It can be practiced respectfully, peacefully, and in accordance with western values. Those things which appose this perspective are not defining aspects of Islam, and so not a fair basis for it's persecution as a whole.

I find it amazing that anyone could with a straight face post words like "religion" and "hypocrisy" with a clearly judging tone on Sup Forums. This post was between a dick rate and fur porn thread. Fucking kek

Because you're crazy

piss off islam liberal faggot

sure, but a literal reading of the scripture endorses Jihad and commands horrible acts. To say that organizations like Isis don't represent Islam at all is insanity. A huge reformation is needed to even start to claim that Isis isn't actual Islam

If my tone came off as one of judgement, that was a mistake. While I am playing the role of opposition in this debate, I am not totally in accordance with what I'm saying. This is an exercise to me. Moreover, I do not see hypocrisy as a bad thing, as I explained in the first post. From my perspective, everyone is a hypocrite, and understanding why gives true insights.

Sure Islam can grow but it means fuck all if American Muslims become modernized when the rest of the Islamic world won't. Islam confined to the US is meaningless in the big picture. Sure American Islam can branch out but if the change doesn't come from within, it can be branded as heresy. Hell, Islamic radicals already preach Western Islam as false Islam.

And I never said they support strict Sharia law, but like I said, most Muslims do not agree with homosexuality, most Muslims believe in punishment for leaving Islam, most muslims believe in punishment for criticizing the religion. Most Muslims are way more conservative than the average Westerner, and even average Western religious Christian.

And yes, the Vatican does represent Catholicism, but like I said, there isn't one representation of Catholicism, but it is one FACE of Catholicism like those Islamic Republics are one FACE of Islam, bad PR from the Islamic Republics is bad PR for Islam.
I don't agree with the blantant persecution like the rest of these edgelords, but I do agree we need to criticize Islam.

And a literal reading of Jewish scripture would make them an equally evil enemy to the U.S.

Even though I do believe that people should be free to believe whatever they want, I also believe that islam, and all religions for that matter, bring nothing good, and often promote retarded behavior.

Islam is a cult not a religion.

Not the point, the point was that maybe the Sup Forums board of Sup Forums might not be the place for a theological thought appreciation jackoff session. Just something to nibble on for you.

A cult is a religion who's leader has yet to die. Are you saying their profit is alive? You know that they just name their kids that right?

Then clean them up and we will talk. Until then. Stay there reform the law where you are to what you wish. We do not want you in the USA trying to reform our laws.

Why not? I've been doing this since 07. I've learned a lot from people here.

only if they chose to act upon them all the sudden- in which case I would endorse fighting the Jews. I could care less if people don't want to face the fact that their own religion says they're going to hell for not killing the gays, if they don't do it then their stupid book can say whatever the fuck it wants

Isis is doing exactly what their scripture demands!!
Muslims that don't support Isis aren't against what they are doing because they are doing exactly what the Prophet commands!! The ones that don't support Isis just don't think it's time to do all of this yet.
Do you realize that?!

I'm a white Christian male living in the U.S.
I go on missionary trips, but have never set foot in the Middle East. If I had, I may not have had a need for this discussion. In any case, you're being rather presumptuous.

That's the thing, most Jews don't act on them, and neither do most Muslims act on their older scriptures. The real problem is the acting, not the scripture, yes?

And I mean, the U.S. has taken down plenty of religions/cults who tried to evade US law at the expense of its citizens. Religious freedom doesn't protect violence, only the god you pray to and how you do it.

We believe that America is malleable. The founding fathers of America believed that the state should be capable of change, that it shouldn't be set in stoned.

We are patriotic because we believe that if we can make America a Muslim majority, we can use that majority to democratically make denying Allah is the one true god a capital crime.

And all we have to do in order to accomplish this is out breed you.

If Christians started doing what the Old Testament demanded, we wouldn't blame the Old Testament. Same goes to the Jews. No, it's the people we'd condemn.

Much better.

>The real problem is the acting, not the scripture, yes?

No, the fact that people aren't acting on old scripture should be celebrated. This is why Christians made the New Testament, because the OT was outdated. Judaism and Islam don't really have this.

I can tell you're afraid. I'm not.

I fear nothing but the judgement of God.

And yet Judaism is very modern and well aligned with the U.S. (haaaave you seen Israel?). That was my point. It's the culture that needs to change, not the scripture. It's happened before, it will happen again, and religious persecution isn't required.

actions are what matter, but what I'm saying is that to make the claim that any group of extremists don't represent that religion in some part is ridiculous

Oh, so all those things you described aren't scary to you? Why bring them up. I too find them unlikely.

>you're being rather presumptuous.

Yes yes I am.
I am on a website reading text limited by what ever you choose to type.

I can ask or I can assume.

I chose to save time and assume.

BTW no one truly meets the definition of Christian. Except for Christ himself.

Islam has chosen to extract all the rules and call them laws and hold others to a standard they themselves can not and will not live up to.

They are as hypocritical as the High Priests who wanted to stone the whore.

I am against organized religion of any kind having any say in politics or law.

Teach the law.
Struggle to follow the law.
Never dare to enforce it.

(I mean religious law. Clearly if we democratically agree to criminal laws THOSE should be enforced.)

We're fully for religious freedom, that's why there's no issue for jews, hindus, sihks, atheists, etc. It's only Islam. So why is this? Because we have other values, like equality for women, not fucking goats, and religious freedom, which are all against the core tenants of muslim culture and scripture.

Sorry this was for you .

be careful not to cut yourself from all the edginess

There was that whole religious persecution of Jews thing during WWII so yeah those that survived left to Israel and other places, but most Jews are pretty tame and many will say theyre only culturally Jewish and not really religious. Many say theyre atheist. And also Israel is an ally due to the fact that we send them money. They wouldve became Russia's ally if we didn't.

And both can change. There is zero point in having outdated scripture if it is irrelevant if no one pays attention to it anyway.

But yeah I', the dude that says we dont need persecution but we do need criticism.

If Nazism was re-branded a religion and indoctrinated into low IQ browns with beards, you neo-lib cucks would still be accepting. #NOTALLNAZIS

Is it really? Sure it's not very common these days, but with the Klan goes around killing people in the name of god they represent Christianity? Even those most Christians condemn their actions?

Yes, the religion is part of the cause of violence, but that says nothing about EVERYONE who practices said religion - just those extremists who agree.

Did you forget the Bible says to kill homosexuals and adulterers?

Bullshit.
If they screamed "In Jesus name Alilililiilieluuuuuyahhh!" Every fucking time they did it and started offering garuntee do trips to heaven for blowing themselves up and causing terror.
If they killed thousands in the name of the Old Testament while trying to build a new country to be run by biblical law, you bet your ass we would blame the Old Testament.
Because just like with Islamic extremists, they would give us no choice but to blame the book.

>BTW no one truly meets the definition of Christian. Except for Christ himself.
I can see we disagree in many areas, including the interpretation of our shared religion. I'm of the belief that Christ was a Jew, and that his disciples, the first followers of Christ, were the first Christians. Thus, to be a follower of Christ is to be a Christian.

I'm not sure how that was terribly relevant to the discussion at hand, but I'm curious about your thoughts on my perspective.

The Klan don't do it in the name of Christianity though. Sure they have religious symbolism, but they never say they do it to spread Christianity, or follow the Bible or because the people they lynch arent Christian. They pretty openly say they do it because they hate niggers and non White people.

Plus the Klan isnt world wide, just pockets mainly in the South and is limited to the US. If there were Klans worldwide, or if the Klan was making a global impact then you would have a point.

1. Because the new testament overrides the old in cases where they conflict. New testament teaches forgiveness and to judge not, which renders the old testament moot.

2. Because Christians have demonstrated they've moved past it. When was the last time they've stoned a child to death? On the other side, this year the ramadan bombathon has killed thousands so far.

Out of curiosity, do you believe Christ was "god" or just a prophet?

>There is zero point in having outdated scripture if it is irrelevant if no one pays attention to it anyway.
So your're against the Old Testament being in the bible? And what, you believe it's corruption Christianity?

Now that I think about it, I've never heard someone accused of Buddhistophobia

Then why the fuck do they use the Old Testament to justify homophobia and shutting women up? Some pastors even called for death of homos. Pat Robertson fucking donated to African countries just to support them jailing or killing homos.

But Christians did those sorts of things and worse in the name of the Old Testament. Yet, it still exists in the religion.

I've been accused of Christophobia.

Since most Christians only follow the NT, then yeah. Most Christians will say the OT are just references and stories not to be taken literally. I bet Muslims won't say the same for the Qu'ran.

God, but in human form, so not as... Godly?

As a liberal and an atheist (I presume) why are you so desperate to suck Mohammed's theocratic dick?

it says something about their religion, and its potential for violence. Christianity has a low potential partly because of it's wording in scripture, and frankly I'm surprised that Islam doesn't have more violence based on what its text calls for

Anti Buddhist violence isn't a thing in the West, but it definitely is a thing in places like Asia. Muslims and Hindus, Muslims and Sihks and Muslims and Buddhists have been at war, especially in India.

Which is it, there's zero point or it illustrates history? And how is the Old Testament corrupting Christianity?

Except most Christians don't just follow the NT, which is why they are so adamantly against gay marriage.

Then why the homophobia?

I'm a moderate and a Christian. And it's like I said here

Christ said "By their fruits you shall know them."
Love (Greek: agape, Latin: caritas)
Joy (Greek: chara, Latin: gaudium)
Peace (Greek: eirene, Latin: pax)
Patience (Greek: makrothumia, Latin: longanimitas)
Kindness (Greek: chrestotes, Latin: benignitas)
Goodness (Greek: agathosune, Latin: bonitas)
Faithfulness (Greek: pistis, Latin: fides)
Gentleness (Greek: prautes, Latin: modestia)
Self-control (Greek: egkrateia, Latin: continentia)

We can claim to be disciples or students of Christ but far too many take on the mantle of teacher shepherd or apostle and not only do not follow his directions to the apostles but worse never even learn the fruits.

The average Church or Synagogue today is a pit of vipers led by a liar in a funny hat.

This was meant for you

Are you seriously comparing some shot from the damn dark ages to now?!?

I mean by all means. Go for it. I think all organized religion should be stamped out like the cancer it is, but I'm willing to give them all a "hundred year do over" just do they have some chance to justify themselves.

The only religion that I'm aware of that's still failing and doing horrible shit past that hundred year mark is Islam...but I'd love to be wrong.

This. Sane, enlightened westerners who appreciate their freedoms don't welcome those who mean to take it away from them.

I think you might be onto something. I will consider your theory and investigate in my life.

It exists in some places like African countries.

>some shot from the dark ages
More like thousands of years of violence in the name of God. The resemblance is clear.

When the hell did I mention corruption? That's your word, not mine.

And yes, I said there's zero point in it being a part of Christianity, well that's wrong since many do use the OT to contrast it to the NT, but again most Christians will say they dont follow the OT, because the NT is the only thing they follow. There's zero point to the OT in the day to day life of the average Christian.

There's a few non gay things in the NT as well.
While most homophobia is religious in nature, it's just tradition, people haven't agreed with gay people for a long time. It's also cultural. Many non Christian/Jewish/Islamic places have also not liked gay people for many reasons. We used to have interracial couples too, but that wasn't really a "religious thing". We slowly got over it, and are getting over it in the West too. Many places in the West have voted to allow gay marriage even in places like Mexico. Shit, even conservative Christian countries elect openly gay Prime Ministers like recently Serbia.