I'm a christian. I'm admittedly not a very good christian...

I'm a christian. I'm admittedly not a very good christian. I was raised as a christian by my parents who taught me who God is and what spirituality is. I thought I had it all figured out. I went to church often growing up and had heard hundreds of sermons on what it is to be a christian and how to act. I thought I was a well informed christian, that is until I actually read the Bible for myself after I turned 20. I reached a turning point in my life where I couldn't believe something based on my parents anymore. If I was going to follow this religion I wanted to know if it was real.

It was then that I realized how little I knew about my faith even though I was a church goer my whole life. I found out that the scriptures that are most used by churches and believers are only a tiny part of the entire story. In almost every church I have been to, the whole focus is on you. This is how you can improve your life, this is how you can be a better person, this is how how you can be successful, this is how you can find fulfillment, this is how you overcome guilt, this is how you get to heaven, etc.

When I actually read the bible though, I found out that the old testament is about us, but not about how great we are as people or how we overcame our human nature. It is about how flawed and terrible man is. The OT is filled with tons of laws, tons of rules and tons of regulations and in every book of the bible, God's chosen people break them over and over and over again. Abraham was a liar, Solomon was a slave trader and womanizer, David was a murderer and adulterer, Paul was a brutal man who persecuted innocents, Moses was stubborn and disobeyed God, etc. What got me was just how realistic it was. Every other religion has religious men that are revered and exalted but Bible heroes were always shown as flawed and corruptible men. I will admit, this of itself does not add any credence to the existence of God, I just thought it was interesting.

Then I got to the new testament. I thought I already had an idea of who Jesus was and what he was about. He was gentle and kind and loving, and peaceful, etc. When I started to actually read the bible for myself, however, I found so much more. I found this radical lawbreaker who was at times forceful and passionate with his beliefs. He befriended the outcasts and the hated people of the time. He ate with those who were looked down upon. The people he sought out were tax men, adulterers, thieves, betrayers and murderers. He went against Jewish laws and customs. He rebelled against the religious and self righteous and called them out for how they treated the poor and oppressed. He shed a light on all the hypocrisy and bigotry within the church.

His words made sense. His actions made sense. But the problem is that what he taught was so far beyond anyones comprehension that they rejected him and killed him. For telling people that they should be kind to evil men.

Intrigued atheist here. Do you read the bible purely for history or do you get anything out of it?

I guess for both... I think the first time I read it was because I was having doubts about my faith. I thought that reading it would give me more doubts, and at first I did, until I got deeper into it.

as long as you aren't fucking children, you're doing better than most priests. isn't that right, Archbishop Pell?

I agree there is definitely a lot of corruption and horrific acts going on in the catholic church. Although I personally do not identify with Catholicism, I essentially believe the same things they do, minus maybe all the rituals, long prayers and how saints are viewed. I believe there is just as much corruption in the mainstream christian churches though, although a different kind. Money and power are always going to be sources of corruption and history proves that christians are not above human nature. It shows that you can't really look up to people for your source of morality because they will disappoint you every time.

You need to learn how to let go of long-held beliefs, OP. It's a very unhealthy habit.

I was a "Christian" most of my life as well user. then I realized the church was nothing more than a religious circlejerk. modern day "christians" don't act according to Jesus' rules, they just pray and sing songs and live their neat little lives. I decided fuck it if that's all that separates christians and non-Christians I'd rather have be able to swear and have premarital sex than waste time every Sunday and friday

I know that being christian nowadays is an unpopular opinion. I know how much I am looked down on with scorn and ridicule when I tell people what I believe. Trust me, I don't feel comfortable at all associating with the average christian or being in the same category. The only reason I do is because of Jesus teachings. They make more sense to me than this messed up world. They are unlike any other message or advice that anyone has ever given me. And above that, it is impossible for anyone to actually live the things he says. It is an unattainable goal which makes it even more fascinating to me.

Well, you've read part of the Bible. That puts you miles ahead of most religiousfags.

And you've actually looked at the big picture, and tried to see what the book is actually saying, instead of cherry picking quotes to confirm you preconceptions. Which puts you ahead of most Bible readers.

You still apparently believe in that shit, though. So you're still an OP.

You're absolutely right. I have yet to find a modern day christian that I actually look up and aspire to. For mean that means one of two things. One, it means that Jesus was just a man and there isn't much else to the biblical stories except for that, they were quaint little stories. Two, it could possibly mean that the modern day church just lost its way. It means that the allure of money and power corrupted the church from the inside and something needs to happen for people to open their eyes. I honestly don't entirely know which one is true. I choose to believe the second out of faith.

not op but I agree. most of them use religion to defend their beliefs instead of changing them. jesus didn't say hate the gays their mommies and daddies did, who pointed to one verse that says not to be gay or you'll be unclean.

I think its really commendable that you're exploring the Bible a bit more and learning about your religion. That's something a lot of people never do and its really too bad. I was raised by Christian parents but I'll admit, it took me until I was in my late 20's to really sit down and read the Bible. Its very interesting.

I started learning about Asatru a few years ago and I've become much more deeply ingrained in that since; I never connected well with Christianity, it was never a good fit with me. The Gods and Goddesses of the old Norse pantheon, they're very much like real people, flawed and mistake-ridden. There's something appealing about that, I think and its neat that that's present in the Bible as well.

Could also mean you're looking in the wrong place. The religious figures in the public eyes are celebrities first, not people worth admiring. It's the parish priests who really listen and try to help when someone in struggling, the lay people who give all their spare time away because they believe in the mission, the people who run food kitchens or hand out furniture or just believe in helping their neighbors. They're the people to look up to admire, not the people who make news. And there's a lot of them.

I dunno if Jesus was who he claimed but the church is absolutely sick. not even talking about the prosperity churches (hurr durr you'll be wealthy if you have enough faith). a lot of modern churches in the 1st world are too comfortable living in their church bubble. taking communion and praying without really believing any of it. they need a new 95 theses to wake the fuck up

I'm in the Same boat OP. Only I'm a Mormon. Currently in a tough spot.

doesn't take a Christian to do that shit. but every christian should be, they just arent. that's the kind of stuff jesus said to do but is too uncomfortable and takes too much effort for your average christian to commit to

i hear the Mormon church is pretty tough to get out of. luckily I grew up baptist and no longer live at home. good luck

OP here. I agree with you both. Very often christians use verses to confirm biases and bigotry that they already believe. It is very easy to take verses out of context and use them as a basis for why it is ok to hate people or to condemn them. What you will notice, though, is that it is much harder to specifically take anything Jesus said out of context. He was forgiving to a seeming fault. If Jesus had lived in our times, gay hating church pastors of the day would have probably rushed to speak against Jesus just because he would have had gay friends and spoke out against church leaders while eating with those very gays.

ive written about this actually and I point out that pastors have basically turned into modern day pharisees

God is supposed to be perfect but if he created the world, he fucked up. So, even if the Bible has some pretty good fictional stories it's still not real.

I mean, Game of Thrones has some really complicated characters that are realistic but that doesn't mean I'm going to worship the Lord of Light.

the theory is the world is imperfect because otherwise we wouldn't really have free will. without free will no one chooses to love god, and it's all for naught.

that said, it is dumb as shit to punish every single person for two people's mistake when they didn't know better. it's like telling a 4 year old don't touch the stove. then they do because they're dumb and you punish them by leaving them on the side of the street for disobeying you, despite being all-loving

It doesn't, but how often do you see progressive liberals working at a soup kitchen, or cleaning out basements after a major flood? Not very often. If they volunteer, it's to show up at a parade or go to an activism meeting. Or maybe show up at a food kitchen on Christmas (when they're not needed).

It's groups like Sally Ann or Catholic Charities or the SBC that are around all the time, put in long hours, and do most of the real grunt work. There are secular groups, certainly. But they tend to be smaller and more specialized, like suicide prevention hotlines or pet shelters.

Yea. I am sure there are many parish priests that treat the faith more seriously. I am just going by what I see personally. Like I said, I'm not catholic so haven't had much experience with Catholicism except for maybe going to a mass or 2 and a few communions. From what I saw it was a lot of unnecessary repetition and ritual (in my eyes). I am certain that are many devout catholics out there though that feed the poor and try to help people.

Agree 100%

Being Mormon really fcks with ur head. Especially being raised/taught that it's the only true church on earth. You make all these HUGE commitments. I mean even baptism at the age of 8....I feel to make a decision like that and truly understanding the commitment would have to be at 18. I served a mission and all that also. But right now after truly studying the church I feel in the fence about it all. There's a lot of condemnation. My wife is also a member and really into it. I've. Been trying to stray away, idk if I want my kids to go thru what I'm going thru.

im willing to bet that's still the minority of christians. not all of them are hypocrites, just most. and everyone else in the church tolerates them

introducing religion at a young age is so fucked to me. how does a 8 year old understand the religious implications of sin, righteousness, forgiveness, and sacrifice? they cant. it's weird that you got baptized at 8, I did at around 15 when I thought I knew everything about being a good christian

Interesting approach, OP.

I would argue that this interpretation of yours is a product of your own time period. Five thousand years ago, Moses would have been seen as a great leader. These "flaws" you speak of only apply using today's morality.

And that makes sense. Religions are supposed to be regulators of behaviour. You can't tell people to behave in a certain way if the very role models you tell them to aspire to are assholes. They have to be saints. Otherwise, religion makes no sense. "If Moses is allowed to be a sinful asshole and still be revered, then why should I behave?" a child may ask.

But yeah, still interesting.

the interesting thing about christianity is that it pushes HARD the idea that humans are flawed. right from the start. but you can be saved if you believe. biblical figures are often revered not because they're perfect but by being faithful to god despite their flaws. it revolves around you not wanting to sin because it'd make god sad, and if you loved him you wouldn't do that. which is a hell of a guilt trip since we're supposedly sinus by nature

*sinful by nature, fuck

You'd be wrong. I've worked with a lot of faiths. While the majority of people just go to church, a surprising number are active, especially in the South. They're not perfect. If you go to rural Texas, for instance, there'll be bigotry. But they don't just sit on their asses or look out for themselves. They genuinely try to help other people, and end up doing quite a bit of good.

Now some religions are just plain garbage and never help anyone except themselves. But that's groups like the Scientologists, not the more mainstream sects.

>this whole thread

I agree that morality seems to shift with each time period. Back in biblical times it seems like slavery was more accepted. In the bible, slaves were even told that they should obey their masters which was still used as a justification for black slavery in the US not too long ago. Now, slavery is rightfully universally considered wrong and evil.

I don't think that religious leaders in the bible were allowed to be sinful assholes though. I think they were sinful assholes despite the standards that were put up for them. Many of them were punished harshly for their sins too. David literally had a man killed so he could have sex with his wife and yet David was considered "a man after God's own heart". It really doesn't make sense unless you see these men how God sees them. Yes, he sees the sin but he also sees the good qualities as well. If he didn't then he would have just destroyed them all in a flood. Their faith removed them from judgement.

I've been to various churches up north and if stuff like that happens it isn't because they love jesus and want to serve him. it's because they think it's the right thing to do. also how can they call themselves christians if they're bigoted? that's sickening to me.

next time try adding to the conversation

>Bible heroes were always shown as flawed and corruptible men

That makes it even better because nowadays we're always presented with how we need to be righteous and innocent enough to be perceived as a hero but everyone has their own flaws and mistakes that they did in the past. It's part of human nature. It's funny because certain people get mad at you because you're not in a "certain position" or you don't have the "right" to call them out on their errors which a huge contradiction in itself.

I have a little anecdote for you.

My girlfriend and I work for the Red Cross. We were one of the people who helped the migrants in the refugee camps. Usually, our job would be to hand out food and blankets and tampons and other necessities to them.

Anyway, here's the kicker. You're right, most of the people there were Christians, and very outspoken ones at that. My girlfriend and I are atheists. And you know what I realised? Every single Christian there was a fucking racist. You wouldn't believe the kind of shit we heard while working there.

>Look at all these dirty Muslims, they're from a different caste, not like us Greeks.
>Greek people have glorious ancestry, while these people are all descendants of slaves.
>Muslim people don't value hygiene, that's why they smell so bad.
>We should be leaving them all to starve to death, after what they did to our ancestors.

These Christian workers also complained all the time and kept talking about how degrading it was to be serving Muslims. They were also extremely rude to them and talking in a very informal tone (in the Greek language, you use different grammar to speak politely, and different to speak to your friends, and it's considered very rude or very forward to speak informally to strangers).

My girlfriend and I were convinced that all those people there only volunteered so they could feel good about themselves and feel superior, instead of actually helping.

agreed. many modern christians feel like it's a duty and do this shit to feel self-righteous, much like college kids going on weeklong service trips to 3rd world countries. but instead of posting pictures of sad-looking kids on instagram christians can talk about it at sunday service and feel like they've done a good deed

that's because Muslims are actual subhumans. Props to the rational christians for not being pussies. i bet your gf pegs you at night

740022108
0/10 bait

>My girlfriend and I were convinced that all those people there only volunteered so they could feel good about themselves and feel superior, instead of actually helping.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I encountered many of the same things with many of the churches I have been to. You can see pretty clearly what is in peoples hearts and what their motivations are. It's one of the main reasons that christians are ridiculed among the general public. Some of them have the wrong mindset and are viewing christianity as a responsibility and so they can feel "holier than thou" rather than seeing that there are real people that need help in this world. It is a problem.

Dude, chill. I'm an atheist. I'll be the first to lecture people on how retarded an ideology Islam is. This doesn't mean that the people who subscribe to Islam are biologically inferior. That's unscientific nonsense.

Your coworkers were right in every single aspect, though.

Muslims are a lower class of human because their religion forces them to be. If they had the balls to abandon their bronze age superstition and all the savage acts that it demands, they could perhaps become real humans.

Greeks DO have an extensive history, and Muslims from the middle east don't.

Muslims DO smell terrible, although this is more a result of their countries being complete shitholes without basic hygiene necessities.

And lastly, you SHOULD abandon them to their fate. No self-respecting human, atheist or otherwise, should knowingly aid a muslim unless they renounce their ridiculous faith and join the modern world. The worlds countries should either take a completely hands-off approach to the middle east and let them hack each other to pieces, or nuke the entire place into the sea and be done with it.

You see, unlike other religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Buddhists, Hindus, and just about every single religion other than Islam, Islam has completely failed to adapt to the modern world. Christianity abandoned witch-hunts and religious belief being codified into law. Not so with Islam, see Sharia law. In middle east countries dominated by Islam, they still practice brutal, wholly unnecessary rituals like beheading anyone who disagrees with them.

Islam, unlike other faiths, has exalted 'tradition' to the point that it CAN'T evolve like the others have. It CAN'T adapt itself to fit with civilization. It is a pointless, savage belief set from a time in which humans minds were dominated by Gods and not Reason, and it should have stayed there.

Because Islam is not compatible with the world, and can never become compatible, it logically follows that the duty of every right-minded human is to expunge it by any means necessary; or if such acts violates your sense of morality, then to at the very least refrain from aiding it any way.

Oh, and massive immigration needs to be cut too.

>being this retarded that you can't even reply to my post

oh you

740022372
>being that thirsty for (You)s

>Claims to be an atheist
>Buys into the "le everyone is equal meme"
>no no no b-but i side with science

I've probably heard all you've heard, and more. And that's actually one of the reasons why the Red Cross is so important. It's literally the only non-government non-religious agency out there that has the breadth and scope to handle like things like immigrant camps, or being displaced by a natural disaster. And one of the key principles of the ICRC is neutrality -- the Red Cross doesn't care whether someone is "legal" or what their religions is, they just care that they're people who need help. And that often makes them the glue that holds the religious groups together when they're all responding.

But that still doesn't diminish the fact that it's the Christians, Buddhists, Jews, and Muslims (those are the ones I've worked with) who turn out of force, and often help in ways the Red Cross doesn't.

I love how you just rekt that guy and he doesn't even bother to respond

740022372
why do you Sup Forums brand braindead idiots even bother entering these threads? most other responses show a modicum of thought that was put into them. you're just regurgitating controversial opinions fed to you via memes. I bet you make fun of liberals for living in their echo chambers without realizing that you're not any better. Read a book.

Muslims do have an extensive history, but you're right that modern Islam is incompatible with the 21st century. doesn't mean they're all subhuman. instead of helping innocents who had the misfortune to be born in these countries you want them all to die? that's also a very narrow-minded view of the world

>but my feelings!!!

you're fucking retarded just stfu

The bible is a literary masterpiece. You have a true devotion more than most. However, it is a work of fiction and falsehood, only a fool would take it as fact. If you truly read it so thoroughly its a testament to your reasoning abilities if you still believe the crap

>posts on Sup Forums
>Tells me to read a book
>mfw

what book? the book about your love for cock?

good response

yeah it might awaken something in you

...

no thanks you already should how much of a faggot you are itt

How is being kind to each other an unattainable goal?

> look, I don't believe in Christianity and all that bullshit the added
> i believe in what christ said
So, like the people 2 millennia ago? No way that's going to backfire.

>being kind to each other

That's what I thought that Jesus was preaching too, until I read the bible. I actually believed that was one of his main messages. I realize now that he was going much, much further than that. He said its not enough to just be kind to one another because everyone does that. Everyone is kind to someone. Even evil men can show acts of kindness to those they care about. No, what he was saying is that you should also be kind to those who persecute you and do evil things to you. He was saying that you should love not just your friends and family but your enemy as well. When someone steals from you then you should give them more and when someone punches you then you should offer them the other cheek to punch as well. What Jesus was actually saying was so far beyond what is humanly possible. He was talking about unconditional love. Do you know any one person that has unconditional love for everyone?

Donald TRUMPET

Dont samefag

But biologicaly they are inferior, their average IQ is lower, on average shorter, on average they have smaller dicks, weaker bones. Not sub human but not European level. Also wanting to help others at the expense of sacrificing your own countryman is narrow minded, look at sweeden.

Buddhist?


It's a pretty common thought to love thy enemy. It's stupid though, to just love him, what you ought to do, is understand him. Then you don't have to love him, for you can follow his reasoning, instead of
and how is, 'be kind to each other' different from 'be kind to each other, also those you don't want to be kind too.'

You're right, christianity wasnt the only religion to ask you to love your enemy. My original point was that that specific tenet is an unattainable goal. It was not the only thing Jesus said that I believe is unattainable goal either. There are many things he said that are just beyond human nature.

> beyond
That always aggravates me.
> no no,it makes sense, believe me, you're just too stupid to get/achieve it

I don't see why it should be so hard to understand other beings and why they are hostile towards you.
Sure I wouldn't enjoy being eaten by a lion, but I wouldn't hate it for acting in character.

Personally I think the first step is to realize, you're not entitled to life or happiness.
> why are you eating ME? I'm a human being, i deserve to live until i die of old age!

I'm not asking you to agree with me. I just personally don't believe that people are capable of unconditional love. I don't think it has anything to do with understanding them. You can understand why someone shoots your wife after robbing them but thats not the same as forgiving and loving them anyways. Also, some people are hostile just to be hostile. Not everyone has a reason.

Maybe I came off too strong.
Imho, by saying something is impossible, you leave yourself an option to act against your own beliefs and excuse your failure by claiming, that you never were able to act perfectly in accordance with them in the first place.
You could be the most perfect person, go on a rampage and argue, that you're still as perfect, since it was bound to happen, that you break your own laws at some point.

A lot of people have forgiven murderers. Mostly because they understood why the person did it and how they felt.
Of course you don't have to agree with or support their behavior to forgive them.
Everything has a reason, it may be hidden very deeply and long past, but it's there. If only in the form of validation of the idea, that violence is an appropriate way of expressing your feelings.

I think you're right that some people excuse bad behavior by claiming its impossible to be fully good. I'm just a realist though. I have never actually met or heard of anyone that is able to live up to the sermon on the mount. Its my belief that Jesus phrased the sermon the way he did because there were still people that thought they were good because they upheld "the law". So he proceeded to raise the standards so high that no person alive would ever be able to achieve it. Yes, there was the love your enemy part, but he also said if you are even angry you will be subject to judgement. If you look at a woman with lust then you will be considered an adulterer. I don't know of any person in this world who has never gotten angry at someone or lustful. I don't think its possible. Even then, to make sure people are totally clear on what he was saying, he ended it by "be perfect". Nobody is perfect and no amount of wishing or trying is going to change that.

Don't think the Cathlolic Church is the only place with corruption. The only reason you're hearing so much about them is because they have a policy to be transparent with their dealings. I can't even imagine how much shit is going down in Southern Baptist and Mormon Churches. There was a reported incident where either a Baptist or Mormon church was prosecuted for literally offering their preteen daughters to get impregnated by the clergy.

Buddhists do show unconditional love for people, but I wouldn't go as far as to say they would let people step all over them. Buddhist monks in China and Thailand train in martial arts after all, and have fought to the death to defend their temples from invaders.

Source: I'm Buddhist and used to practice Muay Thai at a temple in Laem Chabang.

Hi OP. I haven't read the whole thread, as it's getting pretty long rn. Let me tell you 2 things:
1) I'd recommend you not only to read the whole Bible, but also read some stuff about the early Christians. You can find out sth about 'em in the Acts Book, and in the Chruch Fathers books. Even though you aren't a Catholic, many other Christians also look up for guidance un their books. I finished a while ago St Augustine's Confessions, and it was kind of inspiring for me.

2) Maybe you already know that, but most Christians don't believe in the WHOLE O.T.. Ok, maybe some Biblical fundamentalists do, but if you 'read closer', you will see that Jesus Christ was the ¿founder? of a new alliance that revisioned the Old Alliance (the Chosen People, Abraham, Israel). Also, the OT Os full of contradictory rules, which are evidently man-made.