Classically trained

>Classically trained
>Made Jazz instead

What went so wrong?

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Mingus is GOAT so who cares?

>what went so right
i still prefer let my children hear music, though

>is black
>rips entire career off Gershwin
pottery

t. white pseudo intellectual who can't understand jazz

Classical + jazz is GOAT

He sucked ass at doing classical music stuff. So he's like "oh shit let me go to jazz". But then he realized that everyone needs to be diverse and technical players on their instruments in jazz so he can't even do that. Then he's like "shiiiieeeettt what if I finna do muh wack skills in arranging classically in jazz? nobody know nothing about arranging in jazz so they won't know how weak I am!"

And then he became known as among the greatest jazz guys ever for baby tier boring film music level weaving of arrangements in "jazz playing" (in other words, cheesy poop hooks rather than intricate improvisations)

White pseudo intellectuals represent 95% of jazz listeners though

You can't dance your ass off at a classical concert

Gershwin died of a brain tumour at 38 like a pussy so who's the real winner?

>he never went hard when ballets, waltzes, Varese's Ionisation, or Reich's Drumming is on
Pleb music fan detected.

>tfw this album is now cool to dislike because of post-avant-teens

Mingus, an American, traveled to Mexico for medical care. What did he think was going to happen?

>Gershwin
Literally WHO

Then let them for god's sake

Every other motherfucker is "classically trained". Classical might be the greatest marketing buzzword victory of all time, it's held to such high esteem for the wrong reasons.

Yes. Yes you can.

Jimmy Knepper? Is that you?

Please be bait

I don't /classical/.

>user has never freaked out at a performance of the rite of spring

>"black saint and the sinner lady is a mediocre horribly arranged album"
>oh ok then whats your favorite album?
>"Either art angels or emotion"

>asking people their favorite "albums"
How to spot a philistine

>classically trained
>was a homo degenerate and made rock instead
What went so wrong?

>le sneaky strawman
Also Homogenic is better than all of those and 60% as good as Black Saint

>classically trained
>made classical music
what went so wrong?

(you)

wrong as fuck

This. Bill Evans is the greatest musician of all time.

But can he play Liszt?

this, Black Saint is basically the perfect mix of jazz improvisation, soulful performances, and classical arrangements. Every instrument serves a purpose and every second has a rhythmically complex and beautiful/intense melody

Nah. Sorry I like jazz with intricate and diverse playing, not boring pop hooks/cliches.

>improvisation
>soulful performance
Yeah, like the main hook performed in multiple songs that sounds like a cheesy spy flick bit and the cliche as fuck flamenco guitar parts, such intricate and soulful improvisation. More like zero variety garbage.
>classical arrangements
Every basic as fuck film score has that kind of weaving in and out, and it's not that special here either. It's no Mass In B Minor or Mars: Bringer Of War

but didnt most of those "cliche" parts become cliche after Black Saint? You could say TVUAN is "cliche" but thats only because it became cliche after TVUAN

after TVUAN was released*

name one album that has flemenco guitar used like that, also that "hook" has no resemblance to a spy film, and most of the record is inspired by the struggles of african americans in the 60s, none of it was taken from spy films, but maybe youre baiting because the "spy film" comparison is basically a meme

Nope, the stuff like the main phrase/hook of the album and its variations have existed in jazz forever (ex. listen to some of the flapper stuff the music's inspired by from the 20s). Same with the flamenco which is an almost 200 year old artform by the time it made its appearance in TBSATSL.

>implying

That''s a strech if I ever heard one.

...

dunno but googling it i found these two things

Nigga just listen to 20s jazz, the more upbeat bits sound just like the main phrase/hook. It sounds like cheesy pink panther tier stuff, too which was out around the same time as TBSATSL.

Also, runs like the ones in TBSATSL on guitar are very common in flamenco. You have never listened to flamenco if you think it's not common.

>Classically trained pianist
>Became a jazz/soul/RNB/blues/gospel singer instead in addition to her piano playing

What went so wrong?

>TBSATSL
nigger just right black saint

I understand that its common in flamenco, but I haven't really heard it used that way in jazz (more the way it fits into the music rather than what the guitar is actually playing). Also, even if that chord progression is common, why is that a bad thing? Many jazz artists have used common Spanish chord progressions such as Coltrane with Ole. As long as the playing is good and it helps make the music more diverse and realized, that's a good thing.

TBSATSL is less letters

>What is Lisztomania

Are you actually black? Learn how to type you nigger.

>nigger just right black saint

Not him, but you should take your own advice.

That's called a spelling error, not a typing error. Fuck off with your not him shit, him.

It's not a chord progression you numbnuts, it's a hook itself.

>how it fits
You mean as a gimmick mini-interlude section in between the actual guitar playing? So basically anyone/everyone that's been excused of making wank music on guitar?

>more diverse and realized
But it's not more diverse. Sure from a surface perspective the idea sounds interesting, but there's nothing to go beyond that. It's the equivalent of cheesy synths in metal or skits in hip hop, where after the initial novelty value goes away there's no depth to whats been added.

No I'm talking about the guitar playing itself and how it fits in with the rest of the music, as well as the chord progression the guitarist plays.

And yes it adds another side to the music, and impacts the way the music carries out (how the music gets faster and the more "flamenco" inspired usually after the guitar sections) and your definition of "gimmick", in my eye is very vague and (by your definition) you could say any creative song idea is a "gimmick".

My sides. I'm not him but the fact that you think I am just goes to show how much of a sperg you are. Since you want to be real technical here the use of an acronym by that user does not constitute a "typing error" and it's completely valid.

The fact that you have to lash out because of something so benign and immediately sperg out and assume "he's a nigger" is hilarious because you made a legitimite mistake in your initial post.

So by your obviously flawed logic you're a self hating coon, but in reality you're probably a brainded Sup Forumstard that needs to get the fuck out of my board.

that album is better than any classical, or any other music from any other genre, or any other work of art ever made in any medium

>Classically trained
>makes shitty essential transcendetal orthodox hipster faux avant post-electrorock instead

what went wrong?

this, for its instrumental skill, ambition, creativity and passion its already better than 95% of the Sup Forums essentials chart, but since its actually fantastic that makes it better than all of them

>playing itself, chord progression
Typical flamenco stuff. Fucking go listen to Paco or something. Or better yet, even though Paco's not that great, you might wanna do something simple and baby level like Mingus, so go watch the Shrek movies that have Puss In Boots in them plus the Puss In Boots spinoff movie.

>how the music gets faster and the more "flamenco" inspired usually after the guitar sections
Everything's in the same tempo, the drum pattern changes.

Stuff that literally sounds like what one can hear in every stereotypically Spanish section in a movie is just a gimmick. If there was more jazzy playing involved by everyone, it would be different, but it's not. That's the epitome of a gimmick as it has no depth beyond the initial whoa! factor.

>better than any classical
Spoken like a truly uneducated person. It lacks the intricate melodic development, harmonic progression, and actual large scale weaving of arrangements that can be heard in classical music. But it also lacks the intricate improvisations of jazz, with a very limited palette on display for each and every instrumentalist on it. Only people who have never listened to jazz or find actual jazz/classical too hard to pay attention to would think TBSATSL is the best at anything.

Check out this troglodyte.

but it wasn't a stereotype back then, I cant believe I have to say it but Puss in Boots came out 50 years after TBSATSL.

Also again, by your definition of "gimmick" any creative song idea could be a gimmick.

And it does have more depth after the woah factor, in quite a few of the flamenco sections there is a trumpet that plays along with the guitar in a "jazzy" way

classical was/is dead, jazz wasn't

>but it wasn't a stereotype back then, I cant believe I have to say it but Puss in Boots came out 50 years after TBSATSL.
Didn't I just explain earlier that flamenco is like 200 years old? Why the fuck are you TBSATSL dickriders so adhd?
>Also again, by your definition of "gimmick" any creative song idea could be a gimmick.
No, not really. In A Silent Way still maintains very intricate jazz playing on it for example despite the very many innovations it works with.
>And it does have more depth after the woah factor, in quite a few of the flamenco sections there is a trumpet that plays along with the guitar in a "jazzy" way
Oh yeah, a couple slow notes. How amazing. Totally not some bargain bin Davis attempt.

you don't have to know classical to know who the fuck gershwin was

If this was true, then classical players wouldn't be getting paid a ton more than jazz today. First chairs for NYPH get paid a fuck ton more than most of the artists dickriden here on Sup Forums that aren't big time pop artists.

Anyone can play jazz. Nobody can do classical, especially the insane innovations in that field around that time period.

>Didn't I just explain earlier that flamenco is like 200 years old? Why the fuck are you TBSATSL dickriders so adhd?
Yes I know that but the things that could make TBSATSL seem "cliche" were tropes that occurred after the release of TBSATSL (spy movies, whose popularity rose AFTER the release of TBSATSL)
>No, not really. In A Silent Way still maintains very intricate jazz playing on it for example despite the very many innovations it works with.
Well that you are correct with but since it isnt as out there as TBSATSL it isnt as easy to say its "Gimmicky"
>Oh yeah, a couple slow notes. How amazing. Totally not some bargain bin Davis attempt.
I didnt mean to put "And it does have more depth after the woah factor" and "in quite a few of the flamenco sections there is a trumpet that plays along with the guitar in a "jazzy" way" so I apologize for that. However are you really trying to convince me that a slow trumpet is a bargain bin Davis attempt? The trumpet sections and guitar arent gimmicky because they ADD to the music by the way, and without them there would be no transition between the sections before and after that, you couldnt just take them out because they had value in further portraying the message of the piece as well as to keep the songs going.

You can not tell me that the flamenco sections and more danceable spots of The Black Saint dont give you a rush of energy, or the beautiful "Track B- Duet Solo Dancers" doesnt leave you in awe of its beauty, and if not, then I just dont think this album was made for someone like you, maybe third stream isnt your thing, but I can tell you this album is insanely detailed, emotional, passionate, well played and orgasmic in most parts

I didnt mean to put "And it does have more depth after the woah factor" and "in quite a few of the flamenco sections there is a trumpet that plays along with the guitar in a "jazzy" way" together, I mean

True, but this homegirl was a straightup classical SHREDDER

>Yes I know that but the things that could make TBSATSL seem "cliche" were tropes that occurred after the release of TBSATSL (spy movies, whose popularity rose AFTER the release of TBSATSL)
I gave examples of 20s jazz music for the main phrase, and already explained the origin of the cliches for flamenco to be from flamenco itself. You must be trolling because nobody's that stupid.
>Well that you are correct with but since it isnt as out there as TBSATSL it isnt as easy to say its "Gimmicky"
Any of Ornette Coleman's free jazz stuff is far more out there than anything Mingus has done. A modern day example would be Henry Threadgill. Neither artist forgets that they were still playing jazz and not pop melodies.
>without them there would be no transition between the sections before and after that, you couldnt just take them out because they had value in further portraying the message of the piece as well as to keep the songs going.
I never knew that for there to be a transition to a faster part in music meant for DANCING, you always gotta have an interlude where a couple instruments wank for a relatively long amount of time when considering it's a transition.

>You can not tell me that the flamenco sections and more danceable spots of The Black Saint dont give you a rush of energy
Not compared to actually visceral music like punk, metal, /bleep/s, hip hop, etc.
>then I just dont think this album was made for someone like you
it was my favorite jazz album when I first got into jazz
>maybe third stream isnt your thing
I love Skies of America, I love Strings with Evan Parker, I love Ten Freedom Summers, and if it counts I also love In For A Penny In For A Pound
>detailed, emotional, passionate, well played and orgasmic in most parts
The rest are subjective buzzwords, but my entire argument is that it's nowhere near as detailed as the best jazz has to offer.

Some dead kike.

>I gave examples of 20s jazz music for the main phrase, and already explained the origin of the cliches for flamenco to be from flamenco itself. You must be trolling because nobody's that stupid.
yes but you also compared it to spy film music, and just because the main phrase sounds like 20s music doesnt mean thats a bad thing, and just because the flamenco part sounds more traditional isnt a bad thing
>Any of Ornette Coleman's free jazz stuff is far more out there than anything Mingus has done.
Pithecantrupus Erectus is more adventurous than anything Coleman has done at that time, and besides, many people consider free jazz to be gimmicky as well
>I never knew that for there to be a transition to a faster part in music meant for DANCING, you always gotta have an interlude where a couple instruments wank for a relatively long amount of time when considering it's a transition.
it isn't meant for "dancing" you idiot it isnt goddamn Elvis or Buddy Holly it was written for a ballet, and the guitar sections dont even take up 10% of the album

>Anyone can play jazz. Nobody can do classical
One (you) has been deposited to your account.

>yes but you also compared it to spy film music, and just because the main phrase sounds like 20s music doesnt mean thats a bad thing, and just because the flamenco part sounds more traditional isnt a bad thing
Yes, but if you fail to understand why I made those comparisons...idk what to do for you. Also you are constantly trying to use innovation as an equivalence to quality, which itself is sort of a false equivalency.
>Pithecantrupus Erectus is more adventurous than anything Coleman has done at that time
Dude, Ornette didn't release an album until 1958, and Mingus released PE in 1956. Not to mention that Mingus is 8 years older...the dumbest comparison ever. Ornette's the much more fascinating case considering TSOJTC was in 1959, a year after his first.
>and besides, many people consider free jazz to be gimmicky as well
For sure, SOME records in it are gimmicky. But none that Ornette has done, which helped spawn the genre, then add other things to it (funk beats, world music) and through none of it did the actual jazz improvisation aspect ever get watered down.
>it isn't meant for "dancing" you idiot it isnt goddamn Elvis or Buddy Holly it was written for a ballet, and the guitar sections dont even take up 10% of the album
Why would I listen to inferior ballet music? Listen to like The Firebird or something instead. Much more intricate, much more intense. As for the guitar sections, that was never the main subject of my criticism, it was mainly the simpler playing throughout the record with no variety/range to it. You jumped specifically onto the guitar part for so long.
Sorry, but jazz musicians get paid baby money compared to classical musicians. Higher demand for latter because it's tougher.

>the dumbest comparison ever
Many people compare artists who are older than Another, PE does more than TSOJTC and it came out three years earlier
>jazz improvisation aspect
That isn't why people listen to black saint, even though it's still fantastic
>inferior ballet music because one ballet is more "intense"
What is emotionally impactful to someone is subjective and can't be pinned down with much objective discussion before you start breaking down the science of how the brain works
>simple playing
It doesn't take away the fact that it's passionate and emotionally stimulating, to me at least

I don't know classical and I have no fucking idea who that is. I thought he was some other jazz dude

...

>Many people compare artists who are older than Another
Cool, but not everyone does. Idk what you are trying to imply here. I gave both a newer more well known example and the origin examples as well.
>PE does more than TSOJTC and it came out three years earlier
HAHAHAHAHAH no it doesn't. TSOJTC eschews piano for basic chordal foundation completely, which is huge for jazz that came afterward; its eschewing for harmony to focus entirely on melody is nothing like PE. Not only that, there's aspects of microtonality on it, Coleman uses a plastic sax which ends up being an influence on guys like Don Cherry, and this is just what I can remember off the top of my head.
>That isn't why people listen to black saint, even though it's still fantastic
Then for what reason? Certainly not the weaving of arrangements on it as it's not like it has any unique juxtapositions akin to St. Matthew's Passion by Bach. Certainly not for its dance aspects as it's not as upbeat as earlier jazz nor more visceral music since its time. Certainly not as its status as some kind of "ballet" (lmao TBSATSL a ballet.)
>What is emotionally impactful to someone is subjective and can't be pinned down with much objective discussion before you start breaking down the science of how the brain works
You simplified exactly why I prefer Stravinsky's ballets. Your attempts at discussion here are very disingenuous. Sure, what one feels is subjective, but that's why we move on from that to have actual discussion. What one might find is passionate and emotionally stimulating, another might find vapid since it just uses cliche sounds for emotions with no range to what's being played that would display emotion.

PE layed the foundation for free jazz, however you are right I shouldn't have said it does "more"

>Then for what reason?
Because of its weaving of arrangements, and it does combine multiple styles such as big band jazz, flamenco, classical and free jazz

>visceral music since its time.
Name one jazz album more visceral without going into retarded Brotzmann free jazz insanity

>Certainly not as its status as some kind of "ballet" (lmao TBSATSL a ballet.)
well that is one reason, and he DID write it as a ballet, and you have not proven as to why thats bad

>You simplified exactly why I prefer Stravinsky's ballets. Your attempts at discussion here are very disingenuous. Sure, what one feels is subjective, but that's why we move on from that to have actual discussion. What one might find is passionate and emotionally stimulating, another might find vapid since it just uses cliche sounds for emotions with no range to what's being played that would display emotion.
So you dont think any of the musicians are showing a full range of emotion on Black Saint, and I still dont have any examples to believe it as "cliche"

could I get a list of Jazz recommendations?

Do you honestly think Mingus sat down and was like
>AWW yes new james bond movie Im totally rippin that shit
and made an album out of that? Do you really think an innovative composer would write something in order to sound like a spy movie or have generic flamenco sounds? No, the only reason you think that is because you've been saturated by everything that came AFTER the release of it, making it sound less innovative to you. The way each song weaves in and out of multiple sections conveying beauty, anxiety, relief and chaos all within the same minute, and cohesively too, isn't something that Davis, Parker, Coleman, Hancock, Monk, Sanders, or arguably Coltrane couldn't do as well as Mingus. Mingus was a lover of music that was more soulful, and he described Black Saint as "ethnic folk-dance music" so it draws influence from older music, so that could explain why it may sound "cliche" or "traditional" but there is a LOT more to it then that.

OP is a god-tier masterb8er

Where's her chin

>PE layed the foundation for free jazz
No it didn't. Lennie Tristano was the early innovator here, with Ornette being the main inspiration. One part of one track doesn't make free jazz.
>Because of its weaving of arrangements
Already talked about how it's no different from stuff you hear in film rather than St. Matthew's Passion where the vocal parts are actually dissonant but it doesn't actually feel that way due to how the arrangement on that piece works. TBSATSL is amateur compared to that.
>it does combine multiple styles such as big band jazz, flamenco, classical and free jazz
You have no clue what big band is if you think TBSATSL is equivalent of big band. Also free jazz on TSBATSL are you fucking kidding me?
>well that is one reason, and he DID write it as a ballet, and you have not proven as to why thats bad
I literally gave an example of a much superior ballet in The Firebird which has far more melodic development, intricate harmonic progressions, has far more dynamics in its soft and crazy parts, has each musician play a much larger variety of things to further show a larger emotional pallet, etc. Fucking pay attention.
>Name one jazz album more visceral without going into retarded Brotzmann free jazz insanity
Davis' fusion stuff, Coleman's Harmolodic funk stuff, a more recent example would be Rudresh Mahanthappa. I can keep this one going for a while.
>So you dont think any of the musicians are showing a full range of emotion on Black Saint, and I still dont have any examples to believe it as "cliche"
>what is the main phrase repeated through the album
>what is that damn flamenco bit
>what is every piano part in it where it does the slow three chord phrases
I am repeating things over and over again here now, yet it still hasn't gone through your head.

Sure, I'll rec some more modern stuff.
>Post-bop with a slight free jazz tinge
David Binney - Lifted Land
>Afro Cuban Jazz
Yosvany Terry - New Throned King
>Fusion
Rudresh Mahanthappa - Bird Calls
>Avant Garde
Henry Threadgill - In For A Penny In For A Pound
>Do you really think an innovative composer would write something in order to sound like a spy movie or have generic flamenco sounds?
Considering how every sound on the record is a cliche in jazz itself or another genre that existed beforehand, yes I do.
>No, the only reason you think that is because you've been saturated by everything that came AFTER the release of it, making it sound less innovative to you.
I told the other guy once and I'll tell it to you, once. Even if this was true, innovation does NOT mean quality. If this was true, then outside a historical listen, I would have no reason to listen to something not that well done.
>couldn't do as well as Mingus
Because none of them were trying to do that until Davis started doing fusion. Surprise surprise! It was Davis' fusion stuff that was the influence on future electronic genres weaving in and out various sounds, not Mingus. There's a reason very few people did what Mingus did. It just wasn't that intriguing an idea. Only recently with works like Strings With Evan Parker, Ten Freedom Summers, and In For A Penny In For A Pound have we seen such a large scale classical influence, and it doesn't just stop where Mingus' work did instead it goes much further like incorporating Davis' ideas of negative space but use the weaving of arrangement to constantly keep that space moving.
>Mingus was a lover of music that was more soulful
Yet neither he nor his players had an ounce of emotion in their playing, more bothered with poppy sounding hooks than intricate improvisation/dynamics that would display a variety of emotions.
>ethnic folk-dance music
Cool, but I wouldn't call Beatles Indian Music or avant garde just because they copped em.

>Considering how every sound on the record is a cliche in jazz itself or another genre that existed beforehand, yes I do.
Give me a specific example of which part sounds generic without referencing the guitar parts
>innovation does NOT mean quality
then why do you criticize a album for not sounding different
>Yet neither he nor his players had an ounce of emotion in their playing
There is emotion all over TBS, listen to the last six minutes of Mode D E F.
>Cool, but I wouldn't call Beatles Indian Music or avant garde just because they copped em.
But they did make indian inspired songs, just like this album has flamenco influenced, and big band influenced songs

Last post of the night for me.
*sigh I have been over this with the other guy. Just go through the damn topic, I am not gonna repeat all this for you I already went over all of it with the other user. Swear some of you people have your heads so far up your own ass you don't even read the rest of the topic before contributing to it.

Yo why was Mingus so big?

Ya'll still fighting?

>No it didn't
Mingus and the song PE were one of the things that birthed free jazz, no one single handedly did that
>TBSATSL is amateur
The whole album is insanely maximalist and detailed, the amount of hard work and dedication that went into it isn't "amateur"
>You have no clue what big band is if you think TBSATSL is equivalent of big band.
Ok now I know you haven't even heard the album. It IS an experimental big band album
>I literally gave an example of a much superior ballet in The Firebird which has far more melodic development,
So I'm supposed to believe that since one ballet is "literally" better than another means the other ballet isn't good? Are you kidding me?
>Davis' fusion stuff, Coleman's Harmolodic funk
Davis's fusion stuff (especially on the corner) is a good example however they still don't convey emotion like Modes D E and F
>flamenco bit
>main motif
You may have a point with the flamenco bit, however it's a "folk dance music" album so it would make sense for it to have more traditional playing in parts. But the main motif I haven't heard anything like it that hasnt come after it, which shouldn't count because it only shows the albums influence. And no, flapper music doesn't sound like it, just because it's upbeat. Also the piano part doesn't sound generic at all

YFW Gershwin ripped off William Grant Still

Not even him, but Paco is not that great? You're going all out at this point, right?

>classically trained
>chose jazz

Why was he so fucking great!

Which reasons exactly?

That album is enough for me to masturbate to by itself

Fuck everyone in this treat. This is the culmination of jazz. Sure, it had some afterglow for a couple of years, but it was all downhill after this.

>White people Starbucks music

Lmao

>White people Starbucks music
>Lmao
No, that's smooth jazz buddy.

Smooth and all clean jazz are Starbuck.

>"clean jazz"
Oh, boy. And what exactly would that be?

SeeAnd anything that isn't like

youtube.com/watch?v=JQcp3UWQOmM

So, albums you don't like?