Daily Japanese Thread DJT #1846

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Read the guide before asking questions.
djtguide.neocities.org/


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vocaroo.com/i/s0r2rh1Kxt1V
dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/38895/meaning/m1u/学生/
dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/122363/meaning/m0u/
dictionary.goo.ne.jp/thsrs/9750/meaning/m0u/
detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1031896855
rikaisama.sourceforge.net/
vocaroo.com/i/s10zWtIGolKX
vocaroo.com/i/s1foIEcJSt8Y
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

Japanese vocab isn't hard; it's just time consuming. Yes, that includes kanji.

Learning easy things is obviously easier on you, making the process more enjoyable. You make progress and feel good about it and yourself.

Learning harder things is uncomfortable, and you often have to really push yourself to do it. It's fuzzy and indirect and vague. Sometimes it's unclear if you're even making progress despite the immense effort you're putting in, it feels out of proportion and is thus frustrating. Some people react to being wrong by getting angry and annoyed - I would know, as I'm one of them.

However, we only TRULY get better at skills when we are forced to really struggle to get through. Skills that force us to go through this uncomfortable, really pushing it feeling are usually skills that are valuable in the end, as many are unwilling to even attempt to start learning them.

Yes it can seem inconsistent and bullshit, but it's still the easiest path to understanding. Grammar rules were written after the fact, weren't they? Yet, they summarize the patterns you would otherwise spend a LONGASS amount of time trying to absorb via input.

Burying your head in the sand of ONLY learning vocabulary isn't going to make it go away, it's procrastination.

vocab is patterns
grammar is patterns
it's all the same

the only reason to study one over the other is because that one is currently a bigger problem in terms of enjoying native material. You can't get around the longass time spend on massive input, because correct grammar is not enough to sound natural.

I do think it's worth doing some extra grammar study at a more advanced level but only really after you've already seen most of the patterns several times. This is because most do not really need any study to understand them in context, and if you study them after seeing them a few times already then you can focus on the more nuanced parts.

vocaroo.com/i/s0r2rh1Kxt1V

Verbal shitposting, I like it

I have another instance of this weird past vs. non-past conundrum, appearing just a few pages later.

I think he's trying to say "Oh! But you properly hit it, right?" yet he uses the non-past form of 当たる. Why not 当たった? The action of her hitting the birdie is clearly a competed action that took place in the past

ざんねん
わたしわもうできるました

you're thinking about it too strictly... he's not just commenting on this one hit but her general ability

>"Oh! But you properly hit it, right?"
当たる is an intransitive verb, so he's not literally saying "you hit it." He's saying "it hits," as in the birdie hits your racket or the racket hits your birdie. And it's not in the past-tense because he's talking about a trend or something that happens habitually. For example in English when a piece of machinery functions properly you can say "It worked!" to mean that it worked this one time, but you can also say "It works!" to mean that it will continue to work every time you turn it on.

Thanks

Learning 日本語 is comfy as fuck

Help. I'm using the 尋ねてない conjugation but I don't know if this is a conjugation I know or something I'm yet to study.

Is this TE form + negative? Polite?

HEY, wait.

It's either て居る (casual) or て有る.
Seeing the sentence is about "he has not called me all day", is this grammatically a continuous sentence?

it's impolite of 尋ねていません and it's the masu/polite of the る, 尋ねる


verbs will use the て for negation 買っていません->買っていない or 買ってない

e.g. する->していません->していない->してない

so the answer is: you probably know the conjugation, you just didn't know that

probably

Wh-why there are two politenesses going on here?

I can't learn Japanese.

It's 尋ねていない. In て+いる constructions the い is often dropped.

見てる=見ている
見てない=見ていない
見てた=見ていた

So what is the point of making something polite and then making it casual? In which contexts is talking like this acceptable?

Unless the masu form is indispensable for this particular conjugation and I understood it wrong.

I don't know what that person is doing with the ますs. You should ignore him.

girl in hellotalk just told me to let her stay over when i move to japan
what do

I've got a few questions regarding this page

1.
>今の下だろう

I'm guessing 今の is an abbreviation for another word because の can only be the subject particle in relatives clauses, and "under of now" doesn't make sense. What's the use of の here?

2.
>ヒモの下だって

I'm guessing this isn't だって meaning "too/even/because" and that it's just ヒモの下だ with って signifying that this is what he observed/saw, is this correct?

3.
>上だっつーの

In Tae Kim's "Casual Patterns and Slang" lesson he gives examples of っつうの meaning like an exasperated "I said X" but I'm not sure where this comes from. というの doesn't have this meaning, so should it just be considered a separate expression? Also, とーちゃん is making that statement for the first time (he's not repeating himself), so I don't know how any statement like っつうの meaning "I said ~" would be valid.

4.
>通ってだな

What is this? I'm guessing he's just using 通って to mean "go over-and" and だな as a verbal pause before explaining the rest in the next panel, is this correct?

日本人たちに聞きたいのだが

人口減少という問題はまだ続いているらしく、日本人は「減ってもいい、それは仕方がない」と言って、問題を無視する模様

と言っても、人口の減少という問題は、老人限らず、福祉を維持できる若者が減っているという意味になるのでは?

そうなればどうするのか?日本の内政はそれを理解していると思うが、家族に対する税制優遇なり、他の措置なり、講じるべきだと思わない?
It's not hard
見てる/見ている is a non polite form
見てます/見ています is a polite form

just replace る with ます for politeness
見る
見ます
it's that easy.

You can ignore that if you don't want to bother with polite forms.

ぬくぬく

If you're talking with your friends it's ok to use 尋ねている
If you're talking with your boss or someone you should respect then

尋ねています, don't ditch the い, this time. It's a matter of how comfortable you are with your audience and yourself

if the person is not that much of a big deal but you're a person who usually shows respect towards others then 尋ねてます is O.K

So the BR's example originally 尋ねてない is the negative present continuous of 尋ねてる which is very very impolite and casual (should be used only with friends), of the same form of 尋ねている (less casual), 尋ねてます (formal), 尋ねています (very formal, polite), so the negation of these, respectively becomes 尋ねてない, 尋ねていない, 尋ねていません

the 尋ねてません missing the い is not normally used, but I suppose it's correct (at this point just the write the fucking い for 尋ねていません)

Got it, although it seems kinda retarded to be polite and casual at the same time.

For a moment I got the impression there was some other politeness indicator going on aside from the い, that's what made me panic.

Thanks, dudes.

just give it time it will sink in

eventually

Can someone tell me the exact meaning of this word:
学生
It gets translated into English as "student". However, the term might be ambiguous. In Germany, a "Student" is strictly someone who attends university, while a "Schüler" is someone who attends school or gets taught by someone else. But both of these words get translated into English as "student". So I'm wondering if it's similar in Japanese with 学生

It's as generic as the english word student. A 大学生 is still a 学生, and a 小学生 is also a 学生.

>In Germany, a "Student" is strictly someone who attends university, while a "Schüler" is someone who attends school or gets taught by someone else.
In that case its closer to the latter. Why german separates those is beyond me.
The kanji represent study life to me

Both university and school-goers are gakusei.
You have 生徒 though, with a more "apprentice" feeling to it.

There is a difference between teacher (school) and professor (higher education), though.

Thanks!
>Why german separates those is beyond me.
Maybe prestige, so uni students can feel more special and important :^)

>学生
dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/38895/meaning/m1u/学生/
>学問をしている人。特に、大学生。
A person who engages in learning. Especially a university student.

>生徒
dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/122363/meaning/m0u/
>1. 学校などで教えを受ける者。
A person who receives instruction at a school or etc.
>2. 特に、中学校・高等学校で教育を受ける者。小学校の「児童」、大学の「学生」に対していう。
Especially someone receiving education at a junior or senior high school. Used to distinguish from an elementary school "児童" and a university "学生."

dictionary.goo.ne.jp/thsrs/9750/meaning/m0u/
>「学生」は、大学に学ぶ人を、「生徒」は、中学校・高等学校・専門学校・予備校などに学ぶ人をいうが、普通の会話では厳密に区別されてはいない。
"学生" refers to someone learning at a university, while "生徒" refers to someone learning at a junior or senior high school, vocational school, prep school or etc., although in normal conversation a strict distinction between the two is not made.

Thinking about it, don't teachers refer to their students as 生徒, instead of 学生?

10/10

珍しい出来ないちゃんだ!

student vs pupil

>"学生" refers to someone learning at a university, while "生徒" refers to someone learning at a junior or senior high school, vocational school, prep school or etc., although in normal conversation a strict distinction between the two is not made.
Let me fix that for you:

学生 and 生徒 both mean the same thing, but depending on who's using the word, they mean different things. Gee, like every word in the world.

There's nothing wrong with attempting to be precise, especially when the question is about the "exact meaning" of 学生.

It's not trying to be exact, it's trying to be prescriptive. An exact definition is descriptive first.

I wasn't trying to be prescriptive, I was just answering a question with as little relevant information omitted as possible.

I corrected the definition, not you. Chill out. I said "it" for a reason.

I'm sorry it triggers you so much.

...

Hey, user, I have something to tell you.

Not only can you learn Japanese, I think you are really close to it!
Keep pushing!

...

I tried coining a triple-layer humble form with お頂き致します, but apparently someone thought about it before:
detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1031896855

Only 3 results in Google, though, I might still be able to pioneer it and train the best, most annoying humble clerks out there!

You can do the same thing with honorific language
おいらっしゃいになられます

Good free resources(or cheap)? I only remember hiragana/katana + easy kanji from high school.

Read the guide leaf.

I finished Tyler Kim's shit, so now I'm trying to read retard-tier easy stuff, but there's a lot of times where I can mostly understand both the words and the grammar but not the meaning of the sentence. What am I supposed to do then, look up an actual translation and see if I guessed the meaning correctly?

Don't think, feel.

>but there's a lot of times where I can mostly understand both the words and the grammar but not the meaning of the sentence
you're either lying about the former or applying too much english way of thinking to the sentences
its subject verb object there, but here its just (x) (x) verb

What part of the sentence is difficult for you, if not the words and the grammar? The punctuation? The context?

>applying too much english way of thinking to the sentences
I think that's more or less it, it's stuff long the lines of 知っている that fucks me up, not because I don't know the grammar or the word but because it's not perfectly equivalent to the way it works in English.

See:

The procession of grammar in Visualizing Japanese Grammar series explains that english will zoom out on the events whereas japanese will zoom in.
This helped me a lot earlier on, great resource

Tense in Japanese doesn't act like a 1:1 with English. On top of that, tense can be switched around in Japanese where it may be strange to do in English.

I don't understand what you're saying.
What part of 知っている do you not understand. The word? The grammar?

This is meaningless babble.

The A Dictionary on Intermediate Japanese Grammar has a short primer on tense switching, which you're likely to come across if you venture into light novels or visual novels, at least outside of character dialogue. It gives you a bit of insight into how the importance of tense is organised inside the mind of a Japanese and how it may be different to narrative in English.
Pic related.

>This is meaningless babble.
Care to explain this interjection?

>procession of grammar

>zoom out
>zoom in

>1:1

>tense can be switched around in Japanese
>strange to do in English

None of this makes any sense.

You were quoting two different anons.
>None of this makes any sense.
Tense can be switched around in Japanese where it doesn't make sense in English.
Just because you don't understand doesn't make something meaningless.
Read the image posted in the post above yours to get a bit more of an idea.

>Just because you don't understand

That's not at issue: there's nothing to understand. No coherent thought was presented.

Piss off you obnoxious cunt.

No. All you're going to do is confuse learners by flooding their heads with rubbish. You need to stop (or, at least, it needs to be made clear to learners that they should ignore your "advice").

今の(バーディー)は(ヒモの)下だろう

ヒモの下だって言っているの

上だと言っているの

上を通って、地面に突き刺さった
(the だな is kind of like "you see?" here)

Do these make any more sense?

Oh shit, I was innocently trying to figure out what this meant until the reality of SRS hit me.

Not the original poster but you writing out the abbreviated parts from the first question makes a lot of weird sentences from before make sense to me now.

躊躇う
蹌踉めく
彷徨う

Somehow I manage to always mix up these three. Being the last one absurdly different. The human brain works in magical ways.

How do you guys deal with old japanese grammar like 'arumai' or'nakarou'? It seriously confuses me and jisho and dojg isnt helping

just force my way through until I get the gist of it

Can a transitive-based causative verb ever get an object marked with a に as a causee?

As in: 歌に厚みを持たせた. < Can 歌 be the thing made to hold the thickness? Or because a song cannot be an agent, does it have to be the location and nothing more?

What is confusing you?

Yeah, I'm doing that right now.

Things like 'おうとも', '-なんざ', 'ーじゃが',’なかろう’,’あるまい’ etc. Like, I kind of get the gist of what these words means because of the context, but I really like further explanation to improve my understanding. Like, 'outomo', for example, if I search jisho with 'ou', there's really a lot of words that start with it. But if I search, 'outomo', nope, no result.

>わたしわ
>できるました
不合格だ

皮肉な冗談じゃない?

I don't think any of your examples are "old" wprds. Most of them are common enough that most people should be familiar with them (and, after all, you've come across them, no?). I don't see that they require special treatment; they are normal grammar.

I won't explain any of them individually unless you specifically ask for it, but I can offer some general advice: Google stuff in Japanese and read explanations in Japanese. Typically the first few results will be things like kotobank, weblio, and chiebukuro.

As for your example, if my assumption about what you're talking about is right, then the problem you're running into with "outomo" is that it's not in fact a word; it's a combination of verb conjugation and particles. Including everything up to the previous particle in an on-line search query should help.

In the first place, is "thickness" a thing to be held?

It's the "profundity" translation rather than the thickness one; see it on kotobank, 2nd definition. The construction I gave earlier is even a set example, so 厚みを持たせる must be a rather common expression.

>learn kana and pronouncian of kana
>then focus on getting an understanding of grammar
>then focus on learning vocabulary and kanji but don't focus on kanji by itself *too* much
Is this a good plan?

Here's another to always mix up with them
狼狽える

Sure, why not.
Learning plans are something you'll likely change a few dozen times in the beginning so just for it. It won't take all the long for you to find out what works and what doesn't.

In retrospect all that stuff might seem irrelevant, but that doesn't mean it's not useful when moving from an English understanding of Japanese to the correct Japanese understanding of the language. It's not like your have to memorize it, just read it once and see if something clicks.

"音に厚みを持たせる"がよく聞くフレーズだな。
「歌」はその変形用法だ。
I made sound thick by using a sound effector.

rikaisama.sourceforge.net/
>*** THIS ADD-ON IS NO LONGER SUPPORTED. FEATURES MAY BREAK IN FUTURE VERSIONS OF FIREFOX. ***
What happened? Why is rikaisama kill?

give me a japanese sentence to say on vocaroo and evaluate my pronunciation

日本語のセリフを書き込んでくれたらvocarooで録音しますので、発音を評して下さい!

mate you're poison projecting personal ignorance as though the average learner ought handle input the same as you

go see a gp and ask about getting tested for the autism spectrum, clearly you're unable to comprehend or handle others processing information differently

these threads had a bunch of shitters like that when it was on Sup Forums.

that narrow to the point on myopic arrogant pig headedness is the absolute worst thing for a thread about language learning

check yourself lad

...

やらないか

vocaroo.com/i/s10zWtIGolKX

I like your manly voice, no homo.

you sound like a smug anime character 2bh

your feminine attempt was better than the first
maaaaaaate

vocaroo.com/i/s1foIEcJSt8Y

もはや声優だな
バイリンガルとかそうゆう問題超えとるわ

I see, thanks for the explanation. I'll add that sentence to my mining deck.

>vocaroo.com/i/s10zWtIGolKX

holy shit man, I'm cracking up. I wouldn't have a clue if you have the phonetics down, but your timbre is great.

You're welcome. :D

> vocaroo
dude guy is here. he is no ordinary man. ﾟДﾟ)

I've got a great idea to rekindle my love for the language. I'm going to start reading a japanese history book in japanese. Anyone got any recommendations?

...

おっすオラ悟空

holy shit

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