>Saruman: If the wall is breached, Helm's Deep will fall.
>Wormtongue: Even if it is breached, it will take a number beyond reckoning, thousands, to storm the keep.
>Saruman: Tens of thousands.
>Wormtongue: But, my lord, there is no such force.
kek 10,000? that's pathetic. what was Peter Jackson thinking?
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>DUDE 40,000 DOTHRAKI SCREAMERS LMAO
literally kys
>a number beyond reckoning
>thousands
>what was Peter Jackson thinking?
$$$jewgold$$$
Eh, disregarding that, for a force beyond reckoning, 10,000 is pretty low
How did Wormtongue miss all the noise outside? Was he not paying attention at all to what was going on outside? How would the army get in formation without Wormtongue even noticing what was going on outside? Is the tower that well insulated from outside noise?
does saruman represent the jews and the uruk hai the niggers and white people int he movie represent, well... the white people?
Not really considering the scarcely populated Middle Earth.
>Is the tower that well insulated from outside noise?
yes they didn't call it Isengard for nothing
10s of thousands means plural faggot
His army was probably 90-110, 000
Remember medieval armies were small as fuck the army of ancient rome which numbered as high as half a million dwarfed the total number of soldiers held by england or france of medieval times
>oy vey my lord there is no such force
>oy gevalt i tollllld you to take his staff
>oy ya shmuck dont cast me out
Grima Wormtongue more like Chaim Wormberg
>WE WUZ THE GOOD GUYS
reminder that Sup Forums are literally white niggers
Why were the siege ladders the perfect height for Helm's Deep's walls? Was Wormtongue out there with a tape measure or something?
>Implying Aragorn an experienced battle commander looked at an army with 90000 and went "Ten thousand strong at least. Roughly ten thousand. give or take"
There were like 20 thousand max. 50 thousand at minas tirith
Not when considering the entire population of sentient, humanoid beings in Middle-Earth was probably less than one million.
10K is more than 500 farmers in europe
Not to mention he had recently arrived from Edoras. So he either somehow missed the huge force congregating outside or they all got into formation between him arriving and their reveal, which logically couldn't have been too long. Did he take a nap as soon as he got there or something?
They were underground.
>Grima go to the enemy and worm your way into their confidence. Learn all about their defense and weaken the will of their king. But their main fortress, a major site of historical battles and sung about in many songs? Dont learn basic details like how high the fucking walls are.
kys yourself nigga
Byzantines, with all their money and roads and Roman logistical know-how, considered anything above 10,000 men in the field to be unwieldy for a single command and supply chain, and the largest single army deployment they ever recorded was of around 34,000 men, roughly 10% of their total military force.
Moving troops about is hard when you don't have radios and a fleet of lorries.
This guy gets it.
Alright you win this round I don't remember that other line.... but still 20, 000 is respectable for medievel type kingdoms
If Grima was "once a man of Rohan", what's with that fucking name? GRIMA WORMTONGUE? That's the most Evil McBadguy name in the entire series.
And on that note, sorry Tolkien, but what's with the name Saruman? Why would you have the guy named Saruman secretly working for Sauron? That's the most obvious thing ever. Might as well have named him Sauron Jr.
Why did Saruman only bring like 5 mines? They were clearly effective but after blowing up one wall they could have just blown up the rest of the keep. instead they use shitty battering rams which Gimli and Aragon literally held off until sunrise.
>have gunpowder
>didn't use it to make guns
Saruman was a tard.
I got the 50000 number from the Game Boy game actually lol.
His name isnt Grima Wormtongue. His name is Grima "Wormtongue"
Like being named Gandalf "Stormcrow"
Because he only had the GP to craft 5.
Not to mention the more mines, the more chance of some moron uruk blowing up half the army.
>using the n-word unironically
stay in your containment board
Tolkien came up with names that fit the culture and the language spoken by his peoples, and didn't really care what anyone else thought of it. For example, Celeborn is a sindarization of the telerin name Teleporno.
>Was Wormtongue out there with a tape measure or something?
Wormtongue was an undercover spy for years, possibly more than a decade. You don't think at some point he could have made a trip to Helm's Deep to "inspect it"?
Why didn't Saruman use catapults to launch the bombs instead of having one dude run the bomb in ? The bomb was on a delayed fuse anyway because it was lit while that one Uruk'hai was running with it, so why not give the bomb a really long fuse, put it on the catapult, and time it roughly so that the bomb will go off after it lands in the courtyard of Helm's Deep? Even if you fail with one you could easily launch another, and even that one that went off in the movie did massive damage allowing the Uruk'hai to swarm in anyway.
why was Sauromon such a bitch after his first fight with Gandalf? why did he just watch a bunch of trees fuck his shit up like a cuckold? I get Gandalf can't use his full power, but Sauromon went renegade so why didn't he break out some wizard shit and shoot some fireballs or something?
Plus. Hes a man of Rohan. Hes heard about Helms Deep his whole life. You think there isnt some Rohirrim song about "Helms Deep with its walls 10 feet thick and twice as high/The enemies throng'd round hundreds strong" blah blah blah
but i am
The bomb wasnt the torch. The bomb was the mine. The Torch was the ignition source. The bomb didnt have a delayed timer.
Oh yeah I see that now
it's called kino. Shit like that happens all the time, ever, always. Also in books, even the best. Always.
It's well known.
The wall was built out of COMP B
The mine was a primary detonator.
Its called
"orcs live underground and so werent outside when he came in but then got into battle formations since it was time to go to war and the walls of isengard are both thick stone and fucking magic"
>experienced battle commander
Were there any battles in his lifetime, and did he happen to not be in the forest when they happened? Seriously asking.
I thought Sauron and the Orcs were based on the Nazis.
Tens of thousands =/= 10,000
Decent bait thread, I guess.
Because gandalf used his newfound wizard powers to anti-cuck the Ents from really far away so that they were immune to fire apart from that one ent that got on fire.
>Celeborn is a sindarization of the telerin name Teleporno
>Did he take a nap as soon as he got there or something?
Sure, why not?
>Wormtongue arrives at night
>goes to sleep
>wakes up the next morning, talking with Saruman
>sees the army outside
He spent his time in the forest counting trees. That skill carries on.
they needed to place it in that small canal under the walls
Not him but Aragorn was above all a ranger who would have been well trained as a scout. It would have been part of his role to estimate the size of advancing war parties I suppose.
but fireballs aside, Sauromon didn't do shit. aren't wizards supposed to be extremely powerful divine beings in lotr? people say Gandalf wasn't allowed to use his full power and that's why he didn't do all that much, but what was sauromons excuse?
Saruman going renegade probably made him lose some of his power, maybe it left him with a short mana pool and he couldn't do shit.
>He hasnt watched the extended editions where Eowyn talks about Aragorn going to war with her grandfather because hes 87 because hes a magic fucking master race Dunedain motherfucker
>He hasnt read the books appendices knowing that Aragorn also served under Boromirs grandfather Ecthelion in wars to protect Minas Tirith, attacked Umbar in an awesome naval battle, and fought countless small skirmishes with all his ranger mates against Orcs all up and down the North
He has served in Gondor and Rohan in wars before (under fake names). He even mentions serving Thengel, Theoden's father.
Remember, he is Numenoran, so he is like a hundred years old during the War of the Ring.
Basically...this
Its not that Gandalf didnt use his power cos he was told not to and hes a good little boy.
Saruman and the other 4 wizards were locked into mortal form and literally couldnt just nuke their enemies. Plus the Ents are old and powerful, resistant to Sarumans magical voice.
Sarumans magic was crossbreeding orcs into Uruks, invented magic explosion powder and poisoning Theodens mind. Hes not an Evoker, hes a transmutation specialist.
Tolkien was very insistent there is no allegory in LOTR and any a reader finds is on the reader not him.
That said his experiences in WW1 clearly influenced alot of his writing. The Dead Marsh and Mordor especially and I think propaganda pictures of Krauts were pretty instrumental in his orcs.
The Ring is the A bomb. Mordor is the Nazis. Orcs are third world invaders (he was criticised for this in his life time as mass immigration had started to an extent) and on and on.
He was from fucking Birmingham so we can be pretty sure he'd be extremely unhappy if he saw the state of the UK today anyway.
>>He hasnt watched the extended editions where Eowyn talks about Aragorn going to war with her grandfather because hes 87 because hes a magic fucking master race Dunedain motherfucker
I wish they would have kept that scene, might have given him a better reason to completely blow off Eowyn. A line like "if I had a granddaughter, she would be older than you" would end it.
No.
It makes absolutely no sense that Grima didn't notice an army that large beeing build.
First, theres grass and trees in the wall of Isengard, then, the soil is black, there's towers and large ravines. He entered Isengard. He must have seen changes, big ones.
The nazis weren't known for hordes of cannon fodder with dogshit equipment and human waves tactics user
They were at the time. Their army relied on horses ffs. But for some reason this super-duper advanced Wehrmacht meme has sprung up over the past few decades.
Ancient battle numbers are massively exaggerated. Only 100,000 died in the Crusades, for example.
>The ring is the A bomb
>The good guys dont use it
Youre a moron
I see, sorry for doubting.
>Hey man this place is different i bet you have 10000 orcs in this place pulled from fucking nowhere.
but A bomb was invented during WW2
>He was from fucking Birmingham so we can be pretty sure he'd be extremely unhappy
Would be fun to go to heaven and give him updates.
"How's my city doing?"
"Well Mr Tolkein, it's poor as shit, Muslims are everywhere, and Villa got relegated."
>on horses
To carry equipment
also both sides used human wave "charge into enemy machinegunfire" tactics in WW1
Hey when was LOTR written? Moron.
Tolkien's idea is that the books are translated from another language, and names are changed in order to sort of fit the feel of the originals in their native tongues. Bilba becomes Bilbo because in English masculine names end with o rather than a, for example.
Sarumans a fucking wizard motherfucker. It's likely he hid the whole thing from everyone so Rohan and Gondor couldn't get wind and fuck his shit up.
OK OK so this is more Silmarillion which you can argue isn't 100% relevant to LOTR discussion but magic in Middle Earth is power from God or the gods at least and once Gandalf came back as Gandalf the White he essentially had all the power Saruman once had and replaced him as top dog.
Saruman was completely nerfed and ran off to fuck up Hobbiton Jew style calling himself Sharky... It's a shit chapter.
>meanwhile in china they had armies of 500.000
Nah those aren't my opinion. They're just regularly recanted bullshit when it comes to allegory in LOTR.
Tolkien clearly states he intended non.
I googled it to make sure I had my facts straight and turns out he was born in South Africa before being raised in Birmingham fucking hell that would not be an easy conversation.
>"How's my city doing?"
well, lets just say that Sauron has won
Because its not a fucking allegory for WW2. Its just a fantasy story that incorporates some ideas from his real life into because thats what authors fucking do.
I mean were the Orcs racially pure? Which part of the West were the Communists? What the fuck is Saruman then if Orcs are Nazis and Haradrim are the Japanese? Where were the dwarves (the Jews) being held in concentration camps? What does Gollum represent etc etc etc
Its not an allegory. Its a story with some applicability.
Interesting, thanks.
Eh, I think people trying so hard to apply really cheesy boring obvious allegory is just that, cheesy and boring. I think we can stop at "the novels were informed by Tolkien's experiences in WW1, love for language and European mythology, and Catholicism". No allegory necessary. Saying Tolkien wrote the Orcs out to be the Nazis is calling Tolkien a dogshit hack writer.
Well the chinese are known for their discipline, or was it the japanese?
FUCKING
THIS
Neither, both were uneducated rice farmers that didn't know what way to hold a sword. Europeans on the other hand.
Why didn't Frodo just use the Dragon Balls?
They were known for their disciprine.
Exactly. I worded my post poorly.
10.000
Logistics, fuckers, get a glimpse of a sense about it.
This, and not more.
You're comparing the Tang Dynasty at its peak to the disorganized remnants of the Roman Empire. Not exactly fair.
...
almost no one lives in Middle Earth due to massive depopulation (or because Tolkien didn't feel like making a bunch of different high population cities)
that's a relatively huge number there
Well. To be fair they did lose spectacularly against a much smaller force and ended up ruining their empire in the wake of all the lost lives and resources.
Sui actually. Specifically the Goguryeo–Sui War.
That way of thinking is why you are not a wizard, faggot.
>helped myself to some beans. Hope you don't mind.
>The Ring is the A bomb. Mordor is the Nazis
Nazis and A bombs didn't exist in his time, dumbass
You know that during the Roman Empire for example, the population of Europe was about 20 million, and the imperial army was about 500,000 soldiers in total.
Hiroshima happened after 1973?
That's pretty much exactly what he was saying.
what is figure of speech
Fact: Tolkien loved Jews
>Why would you have the guy named Saruman secretly working for Sauron? That's the most obvious thing ever. Might as well have named him Sauron Jr.
Saruman wasn't working for Sauron in the books tho. He merely wanted the ring to use its power to destroy Sauron and rule Middle Earth. He didn't accept Sauron as his superior, though Sauron influenced him through the palantir.
(You)
>10.000
>.
get out