Ex-buddhist here. I was involved in a tibetan buddhist lineage (the geluk one, same as the Dalai Lama) for six years...

Ex-buddhist here. I was involved in a tibetan buddhist lineage (the geluk one, same as the Dalai Lama) for six years. I began to lose contact more than a year ago, and became an atheist again a few months ago. I will answer any questions.
Btw, im spanish, so im sorry for the bad english.

Other urls found in this thread:

accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

You could be a atheist and a Buddhist you Nigger.

I lost my dad and refuse to let go. It is killing me everyday and my Buddhist mind is dirty and I feel lost.

Now I am on Sup Forums. So that is a win, maybe.

>was involved in a tibetan buddhist lineage (the geluk one, same as the Dalai Lama) for six years.

Explain.

many tibetan buddhist traditions are theistic kid

what was your conception of "theistic divinity" for lack of better term as a Buddhist and where do you stand as an atheist when it comes to greater design?

I'm also curious about what led to the conversion

first part mean for

i lost my dad too, tho we we're very close. I'm sorry bruh

weren't*

do you think losing your ego makes life more decent? tambien una cerveza, por favor.

makes it worse

i lost my dad 2
cuz he's a dumb ass bastard

so what?

You realize the theistic branches of buddhism are the exact opposite of what Siddhartha taught, right?

No, you cant. Gods are not important in buddhism (because Buddhas are more sage than any gods or demigods), but they exist. There are a lot of suttas in which the Buddha talks with Gods, demons, spirits, nagas, etc... Dharma protectors are also supernatural beings, like gods, that protect the teachings. You must invoke them to protect you, and i think that involves their existence. The Buddha never rejected any supernatural claims (from ancient India), just interpreted them in a different way
Was your dad a buddhist partitioner? Are you a buddhist partitioner? I think i dont understand.
Many years ago i found the FPMT (foundation for the preservation of the mahayana tradition) I loved how they taught meditation(way better than mindfullness, Karma lineage or any New Age stuff i could easily find) and ger involved in their religious practices eventually. I recieved refuge after some years (and became buddhist) but then i began to read everything i could about tibetan buddism. I never lost my critical attitude, so i had to admit that half or more of the religious practices i was involved were absurd (i dont think gods or ghosts exist, but i had to do a practice that involved their existance and suffering... quite absurd from my point of view), and the other half probably were invented just for western people (because we dont like magic rituals, gods, semigods, etc...). Most of these practices just dont work, and you need faith.

There is no buddhist tradition, theravada, mahayana or vajrayana, that denies the existance of gods, dharma protectors, ghosts, nagas, etc... There is not an atheist lineage in real buddhism. But you can believe what you want.
Nirvana (for theravada practitioners) and Enlightment (for mahayana and vajrayana) play the same role as God plays in theistic religions. It is not something wordly, but beyond the world. Cannot be described. If you reach it, you are saved (not your soul, but your mindstream). Its so absurd that there is a accessible state caracterized by the absolute absence of suffering that you litteraly need faith to really get involved with your linage.
I converted to buddhism because i really thought there was nothing supernatural about this religion. I thought it was scientific, empirical, rational, etc... Then i began to read a lot. You can find the entire Tipitaka translated to english here: accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/
You can find nothing rational, scientific... in those texts. They are as supernatural as any other religious text. And those are the Pali Canon. The other Canons (mahayana and vajrayana) are so full of gods, magic and supernatural stuff that i just dont need to quote them. But i will:try reading the Lotus Sutta. lol
This ego-centered interpretation of buddhism is just a western interpretation of some buddhist thinkers like Nagarjuna and Tsong Khapa. I dont think it was important for most mahayana practitioners, and was completely secondary for theravada buddhist since... allways.
Un español! El mundo es un pañuelo ;)

If any of you want more details, or if you cant undestand my bad english, just ask again. I dont mind answering. I think true buddhism, what is actually done by buddhists, is almost unknown.

If youre talking about the Pure Land lineages, yeah. I think that the Buddha original teachings (that everyone can read because the Pali Canon was (badly) translated) have nothing to do with those chinese and specially japanese lineages. But... every and each mahayana and most if not all theravada lineages nowadays also ignore the Pali Canon so... i think that theres no true buddhist nowadays. Just my opinion. Not criticizing anybody here.

so you think at least at little bit of Ego is necessary?

Zen is probably closest to Siddharta's original teachings.

Do you still practice meditation?

Now that i read you question again, i think youre asking about the AdiBuddha and its role in Tibetan Buddhism. Im sorry to say that i never ended my Tantric formation, so i only know about some Tantric practices (Avalokiteshvara, Manjushri, Vjrasattva... most basic ones) I dont really know about this "primordal buddha" so he is probably not that important in Gelukpa school of thought.

You can think what you want if it helps with your practice. If you wanna know how Zen tradition originated, you can easily find lots of sources. I dont want to dissapoint you, so... i wont.

"Ego" is a western concept. I dont think any buddhist thought about ego and its absence until they knew western psicology and phylosophy.
Buddhists think that there is no soul (anatma), but this is interpreted in very very different ways depending on the tradition. Some westernized traditions explains this Anatman concept using wester concepts, and i think its even more confusing.
If you read the Pali Canon (original teaching of the Budda) this theory about the absent Atman (Soul) is explained in many ways. In one sutta, the Budda describes the development of the fetus without using any supernatural god or soul in the process. In other text, he explains that there are water, earth, fire... elements, but not a "mind" element, as Jainists thought. These are the ways the Buddha defend the idea of Not-Soul: just explaining things without recurring to this supernatural being called Soul. After that, this doctrine became a positice doctrine, not just a negative one, and the problems began. Then, some western people thought they could undestand what the Buddha said not by reading any Canon, but reading Shopenhauer and Freud.... and the western anti-ego "buddhist" doctrine was born.

nevermind your english skills, mine arent much better. btw i'm not spanish, but a german potatoe head who had some spanish lessons in highschool.

but back to topic. its a shame that i know that little, buddhism always was the only "religion" that drew my interest. but as you may have noticed, i only know little. how did you get in touch with buddhism in the first place?

Yes, i do. I like skeptic meditation masters, Shinzen Young, Eisel Mazard, David Chapman, etc...because their approaches to meditation as a practice are experimental, pragmatical and realistic (And i like X. Zubiri´s aproach to religion as a inherent dimension of human nature ), but i dont follow or copy any kind of rigid system of meditation. At the moment i just explore meditation without prejudices. But i dont recomend it to everyone. Its very easy to become obsessed with it and meditate 4 hours per day, losing social, critical skills, time to study, etc...

So don't follow Mahayana...believe in nothing, not even if buddh said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense

Not that user but ego is necessary for development, after you're grown it's mostly a hindrance

que te hizo ser ateo?

Ever looked into Sufism in Islam, contemplative Christianity, etc? I like to learn from all these traditions, without taking any at full face value when it comes down to magic. Lots of authors avoid the magic though, but you still need to be able to jive with metaphysical language. Some spaniards too, like Saint John of the cross and Teresa of Avila.

Its just another religion. The cultural western trent that prefers buddhism over the rest of religions is just a prejudice created by leftist the last century. I also thought this way, thats why i converted to buddhism not christianism or islam. Im not saying every religion is the same (islam is the most dangerous still), and im not saying that buddhism has nothing to offer (as a philosopher, i have found very realistic approaches to human life hidden in ancient sacred religious buddhist texts). Im just saying that if shares with the rest of the religions the need of faith, a trascendent reality (nirvana), a false and unscientific view of the world, the intolerance to other religions and buddhist lineages, conformism, obscurantism, etc...
I got in touch with buddhism when i wanted to find a qualified meditation master, and i only found them in the FPMT. But, if you wanna know about somethin, you have to read A LOT. But you already know that.

thanks anons

Theravada buddhism is also full of supernatural beings and magical stuff.
Maybe i dont undestand what youre saying here, sorry.

All well put. Sad that nirvana has become a goal in itself, a distraction from itself. And it's insane how everyone in the west thinks Buddhism is enlightened pure wisdom and Christianity is Iron Age rituals, just because they've only really interacted with Buddhism through books at Barnes & Noble written by monastics and philosophers

Why do you need a sect? Sense of community or...?

Descubrir que cualquier linaje budista es tan superticioso o más que cualquier otra tradición religiosa. Cada día tienes que hacer ofrendas simbólicas, por medio de un ritual, a determinados seres sobrenaturales (por poner un ejemplo). Yendo más allá, no creo que sea posible superar la finitud humana y entrar en un estado de perfección y felicidad absolutas llamado nirvana. Si no es posible la salvación del alma por medio de Yaveh, God, Allah, Shiva o cualquier otro, tampoco es posible la salvación por medio de la fe en una práctica que ha demostrado ya miles de veces que no conduce a nada. En pocas palabras, se supone que el budismo hace de las personas budas, pero evidentemente no es así. No hay budas por ningún sitio.

Interesting perspective.

[laughs in spanish]
If you are really a spanish born and breed and later converted to budhhism then quit it after a few years then you are a worthless piece of shit. You went from pure abrahamic beliefs to dirty meaningless disgusting heaten beliefs. Don't bother trying to come back to christianity, you are filthy and the church has no need for you, puto.

Why go full atheist cuck?
I see it that you have never heard of its superior, pantheism.

Well... In Islam it is litteraly forbidden to be a monk, and the religious community is a laic one (the sunna) The buddha did the opposite: he funded a monastic-beggar religion, where laics had almost no place in it. It evolved to Mahayana, where laics could, at least, venerate the buddhas in order to get merit.
I tell you this because, according to the Buddha, there are only three real things that save us from samsara, hellish reincarnations etc... and these three are the Buddha himself, his teachings (Dhamma) and the monastic order (sangha). Monks are sacred, and if you are not a monk or, at least, feed them and help them, you will definetly dont get enlightened.

>[laughs in spanish]

>pure abrahamic beliefs
Not Op but the abrahamic beliefs are the most meaningless and disgusting.

I hope you can find peace in your tradition.
I can find a question in what youve written: I have been buddhist for the same reasons as almost every western buddhist: we thought (as Lisa Simpson lmao) that buddhism was about reason, logic, respecting other persons and animals, etc... I mean, most people still think that buddhism is the only scientific religion (completely absurd). At least, i studied it and found it absurd, and abandoned it.
BTW, i dont know a lot about chistianity (ive just read most of what St. Agustin, St. Thomas and Kierkegaard have written, and took a class of dogmatic theology at college) but if your church rejects someone its not truly a catholic church. Catholic means universal.
Dont worry, i forgive you ;)

>[laughs in spanish]

Ok i think i understand. Depending on what lineage you practice, the teachings about what happens with someone when he dies are different. But if youre a Mahayana practitioner (as almost every western buddhist) you can create tons of good merit and give it to your father, what will be reborn in a better world than this one (at least in the human realm). Its supposed that your father is confused and maybe be suffering, but you can actually help him a lot (if you have faith).
As an atheist, i dont think this is true, but i respect if you do.

>And it's insane how everyone in the west thinks Buddhism is enlightened pure wisdom and Christianity is Iron Age rituals, just because they've only really interacted with Buddhism through books at Barnes & Noble written by monastics and philosophers

Exactly. Both belong to a previous social, psicological, philosophical, scientific... states of the human being, so they are as usefull or useless as any other pre-modern theory, religios philosophy, etc...

wow so much newfaggotry ITT

Well that's gay. Personally I still wouldn't call myself an atheist, even if I don't believe in sky wizard(s), but I can see why you don't identify with Buddhism.

first of all thx for sharing your experience dude, really appreciate that.
seems that all i thought to know about buddhism is just western stereotypes, shame. it lost some "magic" for me, to be honest. what i dont like about religion are those points you listed, seems like buddhism doesnt make an exception.
but that meditation thingy always seemed cool to me. do you think it is possible to learn meditating by yourself? does it help you feeling less rush within these days?

Not OP but there's still plenty of practical, non-magical shit out there written by buddhists, meditation is not complicated, it just requires dedication. Even Christians like Thomas Keating teach a form of meditation.

Hardest question, specially if i have to answer in
english lol But lets try
Yes, ive read a lot of and about mysticism. I mean A LOT. And i find contemplative ways of life in every religious tradition (Even islam with sufism). It is not true that you must become a buddhist monk in order to have a contemplative life.
BUT ive also found that its impossible to just be a mystical meditator or a contemplative master without any religion, because what you actually contemplate are usually some dogmas of the tradition in order to become one with them or whatever. I found that its impossible to contemplate nothing at all. Shunyata is, still, a philosophical concept rooted in a cultural tradition and can be denied using mere reasoning, etc...
If you have read Santa Teresa y San Juan de la Cruz and you want more spanish mysticism i recomend you to read Miguel de Molinos´s "Guía espiritual". Very very interesting. And im an atheist.

You do sound like an atheist. I'm one myself, and from time to time I feel also tempted on doing research about alternate beliefs because of their sense of community, but they are just pure nonsense and I can't accept that. Some times I think would be nice to have an atheist community, like any other religion does, but without any of the mystical crap, just help and respect each other.

how do i practice without knowing the basics? would it be enough to just read stuff and practice by doing? i dont know how to start, tho

No problem, thanks for asking and im glad you find what i say useful in any way.
Yes, meditation is probably the most useful practice that the Buddha wanted his followers to get involved with. But, im sorry to say, you can find meditation practices in every religion. Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism... even Islam! (sufism) It is true that meditation plays a very important role in the buddhist faith, but it does because of supernatural reasons (as in every religion). And i dont think you can learn to meditate without joining a religious faith, like those people that learn how to meditate in a "spiritual but not religious"community or group.
But, once ive said that, i think that meditation can help most of the people ive met in my life, if its used properly. We cant erase or dismiss the religious dimension of every kind of meditation, but we can use it for the most reasonable reasons, not the supernatural ones. I "meditate" and one of my favorite kinds of meditation seems to be like a "prayer". But i dont do it for the supernatural being in the sky (obviously dont exist), but for the results i get (for example, in my emotional mood).This must sound weird, im sorry.
Yes, you can learn to meditate by yourself. Yes, it is usefull and, in some cases, extremely usefull (i had social anxiety when i was young, not anymore, but i know people that could not overcome their mental problems just by meditating a lot, and i think this is the most usual scenario)...

...If you have real problems with feelings, meditation can be very useful. But again: meditation is like watching tv or reading a book. The nature of the action is different depending on what youre actually watching on tv, what are you reading or what are you meditating on. As a ex tibetan buddhist, ive learned to use mantra, visualization and feeling at the same time, and it ended being very useful for not religious reasons. But its just one kind of meditation. There are thousands of them, nothing to do with each other most of them.

I agree. Im one of those who think that atheism is actually a very strange form of religion, but a religion. That would explain a lot of things, like why there are so many kinds of atheism (like there are may kinds of christianism or buddhism) and why atheist actually have answers to the classical typical existential-religious questions: why am i here, what should i be doing here, what can i expect from what i doing, etc...
And yeah, if we dont want atheism to be a destructive, nihilist and stupid set of believes, we need to know what do we actually believe (we are not skeptics or agnostics, we KNOW) and join in communities based on those positive believes.

Hey your dad ain't dead! To quote my favourite song: I saw some grass growing thorugh the pavements today.
It is ok to feel lost, just don't let loneliness act instead of yourself. Be strong!

Find a book or something you like, and put it to practice. If you keep reading, studying and critizicing the dogmatic believes youre now learning, i think there is no problem.
Meditation is boring tho lol As a postmodern person, i need some entertainment during my learning, thats why i found all the people that actually taught meditation in my city and visited them all until i found an (apparently) not dogmatic not intolerant group of meditators (for me it was the FPMT) Again: you can find meditation techniques in any religious tradition, and even the most atheist of them all will have ANY object in wich you meditate on, and even if its a scientific, rational and empirical object (like the cosmos, the energies of the universe, our actual feelings or thoughts, etc...) these meditation objects come from a tradition with superstitions, magic, prejudices, etc... And even the most dogmatic, archaic and supernatural meditation traditions will teach you meditation techniques that can be used for rational, scientific and realistic pusposes.
Im sorry if i write too much hahahahaha I usually write a lot everyday and i cant stop even here in Sup Forums

Me paso casi igual. Mi maestro era geluk. Que tan lejos llegaste con la meditacion?

100% agreed with you mate, any actual atheist (and I reckon one can even hate that thought being atheist) must admit it's the belief that no god exists (as this can't be proven or unproven, it's merely a belief like for any other religion). The main difference is what are your basis for that belief, in my personal opinion there is just no need for any "god" or similar, anything can (or could) be explained by science. Even for those things that might never be explained, doesn't means there's not a rational explanation, just you are unable to achieve due to your own limitations. And for sure that sounds way more reasonable that magical beings that listen to your thoughts and create miracles on XXI century lol

which part of spain are you on if I may know?

opinions on this nig?

Yes, Eckhart, Kempis and Miguel de Molinos actually practiced meditation as we know today.
But i dont think its true that most western buddhist know what they are writting when they say (for example, Kornfield) that you can be a Buddhist and not believe in anything supernatural. Or that nirvana is not a trascendent reality like Gods in other traditions. Or that meditation is allwas useful for everybody. Or that there is nothing superstitious in the sacred texts. Western buddhist usually never read classical ancient texts and think that whats written there is just what they need (scientific pragmatic realistic systems of meditation with no gods, demons, hells, prayers, etc...)

You morons worship a fat man seated on his ass.

Not buddhist, I was raised a christian. This evening I'm hanging out with an high school professor I was in wonderful terms with when I still believed. I don't know if I should tell I no longer believe, since there are many more things we still have in common (science, music, arts...). Thanks.

Ni idea. He practicado el Lam Rim de punta a punta y hacia atrás, lo he leido hasta la saciedad y nunca llegué a convencerme de que la reencarnación sea real ni mucho menos un problema ni que la iluminación sea ni real ni mucho menos una solución a aquel problema que ni existe. Así que, aunque he practicado bastante tantra (cómo no!) y entiendo teóricamente cómo conecta con las enseñanzas del sutra, nunca creí que fuera posible alcanzar lo que se pretende (convertirte en una especie de Dios onmipotente y omniconsciente) con esos medios tan desconectados de la finalidad en cuestión (imaginarte que eres alguien que no eres).
Puedo preguntarte ¿donde aprendiste a meditar exactamente? Yo en Andalucía

You niggers worship a Fat man seated on his ass!!

Not OP, but that is literally not (a) Buddha

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai

Also, its my understanding that Buddhists do not "worship" Siddhartha. I've heard Buddhists say that they recognize that Siddhartha doesn't exist anymore, so he can't receive offerings or any crap like that. It was because the was able to escape samsara (existence) that he is venerated.

Sorry if I've mischaracterized anything, I'm just a layman with an interest in Buddhism.

My apologies...you niggers Venerate a fat fuck seated on his ass.

I think most of the Gods humans have "created" are easily dismissable as not existent. If your god is good, and theres bad things in this world, then your god dont exist. There are more subtle concepts of god (Lucretius, Spinoza, Leibniz, Hegel, Heidegger...) that cannot be dismissed in this very easy way, but still, theres literally no spinozians or hegelians nowadays so you cant practice a non existent religion. But i digress. I think religion just gives sense to what every human must do in this world while hes alive: he must survive, he must know his surroundings as best as he can, and he must be as happy as he can. When you actually can survive (you have a job...), you know how things work (sciences and philosophy) and are happy enough to keep living (meditation, emotional education...) THEN you can begin to answer the question: why should i be doing this? The answer cannot be scientific, philosophic, pragmatic or based on my feelings (all that is resolved) If your answer is "these scientific reasons" i would say youre a specific kind of atheist, a scientific atheist. I think my english is not good enough, so i should stop now lol. Basically, i agree with you. Nice to meet you ;)
Im from Andalucía btw

Focus on the breath, if you get distracted by discursive thoughts, return to the breath without chastising yourself. Maintain good posture.

Imh, a christian that has read the New Testament and understand and believes in what it says cannot reject anybody just because of his religious believes. Ive known christians more tolerant and interested in buddhism than buddhists from a different lineage lol People tend to be dogmatic for some reason.

How else would he be seated?

Did you ever do a dark retreat?

obviously

It is very PC amongst buddhist to "say" that they dont worship the Buddha... but they do, and its one of the most important practices. Mahayana and vajrayana buddhist schools even think that worshipping some buddhas (example: Avalokiteshvara or Vajrasattva) is the key to enlightment, so you do offerings, postrations, recitations of his mantra, prayers.... Buddhism is a very very devotional religion. They also venerate the texts (they do postrations to them, and write them with gold ink... but never read them lol) as much as Muslims venerate their Quran.
But it is true that there are some schools of theravada buddhism (which i dont know very well) that dont make this buddha-worshipping their central spiritual practice, just a secondary one.

Buddhism is more about how you live your life than what "god" you choose to believe in. I can believe a person leans more nihilist than atheist in the real world, but if you think you've just become disillusioned, say that. Don't pretend to be an atheist. As a Buddhist, former or active, I'd expect you not to be such a fucking dumbass. Atheists are retards and primadonas.

Do you know Steve? He was at the temple a while ago. Tall guy, brown hair.

ok, thanks for the info, I'm glad to get that insight.

I have mostly looked into theravada as they claim to be the most "pure" form of Buddhism. Although I did go to a local monastery once, and while the meditation was a pretty positive experience, I was a little disillusioned when the monk mentioned that one of the benefits of meditation was "protection from evil spirits and invulnerability to poison, etc..."

Nice to meet you too, it's nice to have an interesting conversation for once in here lol - Barcelona btw ;)
Si te apetece escribeme una linea a [email protected] y podemos seguir hablando (brand new account to avoid the rest of Sup Forumstards spamming me to shit lol)

A retreat in a dark room, so you dont see anything? I heard some classical tibetan masters did this (Milarepa?) but never heard it nowadays. I did some solitary retreats, the longest was 8 or 9 days (at Osel Ling Retreat Center) and it was... different from everything ive done in my life. Never felt so many and so profound "mystical feelings", but going back to the city was one of the worst experiences of my life, no doubt. Its kind of dangerous to get used to meditate 16 h per day, completely pacify your mind and thoughts, and then begin to meditate just 3 or 4 hours, with distractions, your job, your gf, all the noise... I concluded that those altered states of conciousness are designed for monks that lived in permanent retreat in medieval ages, not for average modern meditators like me.

have you ever meditate on moving chi energy around?? if so how do you do it?

You seem like the dumbass m8, all of OP's responses have been informative and accurate. In fact he's already covered your watered down western view of Buddhism in precious posts

Previous posts*

Watch less DBZ

I tried one myself once. Only lasted 5 days. I read some Buddhist monks will go for 49 days in complete darkness. I can't even imagine, the visuals would get so intense.

Interesting.
Buddhism is a religion with dogmas that you must believe with faith. Nothing to do with any "way of life" other than monasticism.
It is also very important to choose wisely which buddha or dharma protector you worship, because some of them dont work to reach enlightment (like Shugden, you know what i mean).
Im disillusioned, thats true, but i have reasons that you are, at the moment, ignoring. For example: i dont think reincarnation is real, and obviusly its not a problem. Nirvana is not real, and its obviously not a solution to that not existent problem. Etc...
There are a lot of kinds of atheism (from ancient india (ajñanas), ancient greece (atomism), modern ones (Thomas Paine), post moder ones (Sarte, Heidegger...)...) so i think youre attacking the retard kind of atheism (i find this kind of atheism in Bertrand Russel, Sam Harris, and any atheist preacher)
Can i ask you something? Why do you think reincarnation is a problem? And why do you think that what you do as a buddhist is going to solve that problem?

what?
In the picture you can see Osel Hita (supposingly the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe, even if he denies it) and Ven. Gloria, a spanish female monk that died 3 or 4 years ago. Ive never met Osel.

Buddhism is a very very ancient religion. Its origins are in ancient India, where superstition, science, philosophy, mythology and mysticism were all the same thing. That monk you met was more honest to all of you than most of the monks ive met. Even if they know that most of the practices have magical purposes, they "say" that their puspose is to make us happy, eliminate suffering, be more kind, etc... Thats simply not true. Buddhism dont care about happiness at all. It cares, mostly, about some magical state of mind never discovered (nirvana) and the rest is just rituals that protect humans and monks specially from indian ancient superstitions (devas, nagas, pretas...etc...)

i forgot: Yes, meditation has so much potential, even without the superstitions, that i keep meditating nowadays even if im an atheist. If you feel you can give it any use, learn it. Just my opinion.

this is user from hour ago. thanks for your insights, I learned some stuff today. ill see if i can find a way to practice meditating, no matter on what focus.
keep on doing what you do user, you seem to be a nice dude. thanks for sharing, hope you stay fine.

I can understand your disenchantment. I grew up attending a christian school, and that really turned me off of religion in general. I was very hesitant to even start researching Buddhism, so I've tried to focus on the secular parts.

I've tried to stay away from the Western "meditation will bring you happiness" line of argument. I've also practiced meditation (lazily), and I've found it beneficial, but I realize that the goal is not "happiness" or self-fulfillment or anything along those lines.

If I could boil it down to a sentence, I would say that what I've gotten from meditation is an acceptance of "stillness", which is kind of the opposite of the overstimulation which is typical of our society. And I agree that there is a lot of potential there.