Proto-punk (eg Velvet Underground, Stooges, Patti Smith)

>proto-punk (eg Velvet Underground, Stooges, Patti Smith)
Amazing releases, talented musicians, expressed a variety of topics, with a focus on those that were traditionally associated with rock music
>punk (eg Sex Pistols, Ramones)
Shit releases, musicians who could barely play their instruments, expressed childish anger
>post-punk (eg Wire, Television, Joy Division, Gang of Four)
Amazing releases, talented musicians, expressed a variety of topics, with a focus on those that reflected an increasingly alienated society

Why did this happen? Why were both proto-punk and post-punk so much more important than punk itself?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Because you cherry picked a couple of stupid examples and filtered them through your pleb taste to arrive at a conclusion?

Both the Ramones and Sex Pistols are great, what we should really be talking about is the tragedy that is pop punk.

>proto-punk
Pretentious musicians that played worthless irredeemable music.
>punk
Sometimes egotistic but mostly good peeps playing the most straightforward yet visceral form of popular music because they were smart enough to realize that nobody should be listening to popular music for intricacy as classical/jazz will always beat it.
>post-punk
Pretentious musicians that played irredeemable garbage.

The entire line of "alt/indie" music that starts from TVU then goes into post-punk then goes into what eventually gets labeled as alternative/indie rock is the most irredeemable music out there. None of the music goes balls out hard, lacking visceral energy or toning it way down. It doesn't even make up for that either by having complex ideas; most of it is pitifully simple even by generic rock standards forget classical/jazz. This is usually where some indie faggot goes "b-but it does muh sadboy emotions the best! that's what it's good at." nah fuck that, String Quartet 8 has far more emotion than this ersatz drivel. Funniest thing is that people that like this music tend to be the most pretentious music fans out there, stereotypically thinking all other music to be inferior when there's is the most inferior music on the planet.

Jealous pleb alert

It's not just me, look up the top "punk" albums on a site like rym and you'll see that most of them are post-punk (and if proto-punk were also included they'd dominate the top spots even harder).

Pop punk being shit is kind of a solved topic of discussion imo

>classical/jazz
Stopped reading there lmao

There's no reason to be jealous of shit music.
>Stopped reading there lmao
Huh, who woulda thunk an indiefag has low attention span?

"Pretentious" seems to be by far the most overused insult when it comes to music. Every time musician puts the smallest bit of thought into their lyrics, or the slightest attempt to be poetic, some poptimist on this board will call them "pretentious."

>indiefag
Name one (1) time indie was mentioned by anyone other than you

>MUH GENRE SEPERATION!!

post-punk is a poorly defined term, it wasn't a separate movement from punk rock at all. You list television and wire, who had their seminal albums come out at the same time as the sex pistols and the ramones came into fruition. looking at genre names on the internet does nothing to help with the context of when/how music was released.

But I very clearly laid out why the label pretentious should be used. It's artists/fans trying to be sophisticated when the music is actually watering down complex musical ideas and they don't have the visceral feel of popular music to cover for it either.
Nah, just me. But I made it clear in the last paragraph that I am referring to everything from TVU till recent stuff which also includes post-punk by using that term.

Hardcore
>a bunch of edgy retards yelling over 4 chords
Post-hardcore
>complex and experimental but still cathartic and visceral music

>unironically believing post-hardcore is anywhere near as cathartic or visceral as hardcore, especially hardcore's more heavier options powerviolence/grindcore
kek

name some good post-hardcore quick!

Fugazi, Rites Of Spring, Moss Icon, Drive Like Jehu, Cursive

>But I very clearly laid out why the label pretentious should be used. It's artists/fans trying to be sophisticated when the music is actually watering down complex musical ideas and they don't have the visceral feel of popular music to cover for it either.
>Visceral
I remember you. I'm not entirely sure what we were arguing about, but you wouldn't let go of the visceral thing for some reason.

>You list television and wire, who had their seminal albums come out at the same time as the sex pistols and the ramones came into fruition.
Because post-punk wasn't meant to mean literally "after punk." It was originally art punk, after all.

I kinda wanna add - while Ramones was basically just a bunch of guys who could barely play their instruments, they were pretty good at satire. That's one of their highlights, the lyrics are very good at parodying pop culture, especially from the 60s backwards. It's not anything deep, but it can get quite hilarious at times.

>music you can't understand the lyrics to
>cathartic

Probably something related to popular music because I feel that popular music being visceral, or having some form of hard hitting feel, is the most important quality of it. It's the one thing it can do that otherwise serious/art music stuff like classical or jazz or w/e can't do. Due to lack of detailed, complex ideas, even popular that lacks that kind of energy but attempts to be more technical will also still be as a result "body music" rather than "mind music" due to being popular music in the end. This is how it has been historically, and only changed in about the last 60 or so years because attempts at cerebral popular music are far easier to digest than works of art music.

It's why I personally hold genres like punk rock, metal, hip hop, electronic music's dancier side, and certain industrial/noise is such a high regard. Outside that there would be exceptions like Swans who in their early career made very heavy and hard-hitting no wave.
>needing the lyrics to be cathartic MUSIC
Proving my point that you're listening to the wrong kind of music, buddy.

Most Punk music is only visceral on a surface, vapid, irrelevant superficial level. Children's music, a lot of it - big dumb men.

Visceral? Don't make me laugh, the vast majority of 'Punk' is obsessed with weak cliches, played loud and aggressively, but with a pitiful amount of thought out into the nature of the composition (although there has been plenty of great music created this way), then 'that' is what passes for 'visceral' according to you. Honestly, it's not that hard, it mostly exists on tired rock cliches, devoid of any experimentation in composition (mostly). Plenty of post-punk/post-hardcore EASILY matches the visceral sound and intensity of baser Punk, but supplements that with a deconstructive focus and incorporation of experimental ideas, creating music that's just as visceral (even more so a lot of the time, think of the retarded head banging and thoughtless manure of 80s bro-hardcore bands and the misanthropic metallic scream of Big Black) but thought provoking as well. We can have both, both serve different purposes but if they're good they do both well. Just think, most of the good Punk and Hardcore guys who started off there branched into the experimentation of post-punk and post-hardcore (think Lyndon moving into PIL or Slint embracing atmospheric and visceral experimental structures after moving from a hardcore sound). I mean really, would you compare Sloppy Seconds with the Jesus Lizard? It's a fucking joke.

So any attempt at making complex music should be disregarded just because "it lacks energy" and "it waters down REAL art" (Whatever that means)?

>thought into nature of composition
You're talking like complex popular music like prog rock and post punk also put a lot of thought into their stuff. They really don't compared to something like Wagner working for years on epic operas.
>Honestly, it's not that hard, it mostly exists on tired rock cliches, devoid of any experimentation in composition (mostly).
If this was true, stuff like harcore, thrashcore, crust punk, d-beat, powerviolence, grindcore, metalcore, etc. wouldn't exist.
>Plenty of post-punk/post-hardcore EASILY matches the visceral sound and intensity of baser Punk
Yeah, of BASER Punk to be specific because of course there is shitty not that energetic punk, but that's shitty punk.
>misanthropic metallic scream of Big Black
Not sure if you're talking about Albini's weak ass screams, or the guitars that play what is relatively tame even for noise rock. A more punk rock inspired noise rock like Butthole Surfer's first record is far better than that drivel. Lmao Big Black's tinny ass sound and slow speed being visceral at all.
>thought provoking
Musically? Nope, it's just some occasional change in timbre or a change in rhythm presented to be unique or complex but is actually very simple compared to actually complex stuff.
>think Lyndon moving into PIL
>implying ALL bands did that or some shit
Lmao
>Slint embracing atmospheric and VISCERAL experimental structures
There's nothing visceral about music that has extended quieter parts that build into relatively loud but percussively lacking textured bits.
>I mean really, would you compare Sloppy Seconds with the Jesus Lizard? It's a fucking joke.
Yeah, Jesus Lizard are a joke. Sloppy Seconds made fun music you could dance/mosh to. Jesus Lizard did watered down Glenn Branca.
In the popular music realm, yes.
>(Whatever that means)?
"Classical music" and all its equivalents.

>Jesus Lizard did watered down Glenn Branca
Here's how i know you haven't listened to either artist in question

The Ramones and the Sex Pistols ARE pop punk.

Something tells me thinking hurts your head some bit, you don't understand the idea of conceptual art at all do you.

And Jesus Lizard sounds nothing like Branca

I'm not even sure exactly what you're referring to when you talk about the "lineage" of "alt/indie" music. GIve me an example of one artist from each decade from the 1960s on that belongs to this "line" so we know what we're actually talking about here.

Probably just a troll though.

thanks for the new pasta

It's a troll that's been posting about here claiming that watering down "real music" into "popular music" is bad. Showed up in a Zappa thread a while back.

Lmao you probably think that moar noise + moar speed + moar loud = moar intense yeah bro fucking hardcore loud man this is so loud and fast jesus christ
Would the most hardcore music ever to you be a retard screaming over blastbeats too you ape?

>Television
>post-punk
they were literally at the forefront of the punk scene in New York. they were contemporaries with Talking Heads

>layered textured guitar music with some metallic noises and rhythm section accompaniment
Yeah sure not like Branca at all.
>b-but the screams! Jesus Lizard screams!
Not as punchy as even the most basic hardcore shouts.
>t-then the rhythms though, right?
Nah, it's just tasteless takes on superior rhythms that can be found in both jazz and /bleeps/
>60s
TVU
>70s
Joy Divison
>80s
The Smiths
>90s
Nirvana (Radiohead works as well)
>2000s
Brand New
>2010s
Not entirely sure, that style of music really went down the drain around this time popularity wise, but I guess even then Father John Misty would be a good example.

Not really. I would then automatically think The Gerogerigegege would be the best at this but they really aren't. Songwriting of that stuff is simple, but not always necessarily easy to do.

Yeah, and it's still better than 95% of hardcore and Punk, tells you something

Not really. It's not that aggressive and would prefer to do what is essentially wank but easy to do wank rather than technical wank. Very lacking in engagement for the listener.

>visceral feel of pop music
>visceral
not the first word I would use to describe pop music, but ok...

I think art punk is a much better term to encompass all these bands than post-punk. That way you can include bands like Shudder to Think, who are artsy and punky but don't sound at all like 80s post-punk.

lmao good troll thread op

Popular music isn't the same thing as pop music. Holy shit why do so many of you guys have zero clue about anything music related? Can't you learn to lurk or something?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music