Why is post-punk so much better than punk?

Why is post-punk so much better than punk?

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No as much artistic constraint as punk and it attracted actually talented musicians

>inb4 somebody thinks all post-punk sounds like joy division or wire

all post-punk sounds like joy division or wire

They could play their instruments

wow i cannot believe you actually think that

It attracted more homosexuals and girls, gave it more of a melting pot.

Post-punk went beyond the "fuck music talent and complexity" meme

Because it took punk a few years to get over that initial burst of juvenile energy and develop into something more substantial.

What is the definition of post-punk?

Because punk was not good

Because while both are bland image-based movements, at least post-punk has some musicians who know how to play their instruments.

Wrong

Because at some point they said every punk band with any ambition, skill, and experimentation was "post-punk." Bands like the Pop Group and Television never considered themselves post-punk.

>Eraserhead
What a cool dude.

I don't think you know what post-punk is.

It couldn't have anything to do with and , could it?

>Wrong
That just settles it then.

>I don't think you know what post-punk is.
Not him, but who cares? And it's not as if the Pop Group for example follows strict genre classifications.

Because it puts the post in posture.

More complex but still punk

t. Nu Male

Pretty much punk, if it was darker, more atmospheric, more emotional, and better.

That's the joy division definition of post-punk tho.
Gang of four isn't darker than the ramones

>implying nu-males listen to anything punk related
I'm pretty sure they stick to rap, and the tumblr ones stick to indie folk shit, unless you're talking about those antifa faggots who worship The Clash and Dead Kennedys.

Punk is for artsy college kids who hit the gym
Post-punk is for former emo kids who go anorexic so that their black clothes look better
Oi is for real working class men

I guarantee I know more about it than you.

The Fall gigs are full of working class people

>these are real people
Jesus Christ

Post-punk wasn't a real genre until the 21st century when art school kiddies discovered that John Peel ignorantly referred to some artsier punk bands as such. None of the famous post-punk groups considered themselves to be post-punk; they just saw themselves as punks or even garage rock artists who were a bit more experimental. Only when groups like Iceage and Interpol started showing up did post-punk retroactively become a thing that was being revived and not some aesthetic that some indie rock bands wanted.

Post-anything isn't really a genre, just a blanket term to make it easier to label stuff.

This. I don't understand why people try to treat it as a specific genre, there's just way too much diversity in sound.

yeah i'm sure you have a much stronger understanding of punk and post punk than fucking john peel lmao

It's difficult to categorize post-punk as a musical genre since it doesn't have a specific sound, but in retrospective, there definitely was a movement away from traditional punk rock as new elements were embraced and old elements faded away, I don't think it's wrong to give that movement a label.

Implying
>The March Violets
>The Chameleons
>The Danse Society
>Bauhaus
Saw themselves as punks.
No.

>it's not as if the Pop Group for example follows strict genre classifications
That's generally what I consider post-punk especially with newer stuff. Like how the pop group, have a nice life, iceage, etc. just fuse different aspects of genres while still sounding like a punk band.

What a disturbingly reddit thread. I'm embarrassed Sup Forums.

Post punk makes me feel nostalgic for a time that I didn't live through.

if post punk is reddit, then reddit has better taste than Sup Forums

...

At this point, they probably do. This board is 90% top 40 waifu shit, mainstream rap, and "ironic" shitposting.

Saved. Best reaction image I saw in a while

>who is Pere Ubu
>who is Television
>who are the Talking Heads
>who are The Cure
>who are the Jesus and Mary Chain

etc etc etc

placing post punk above punk, and not liking both, is the easiest way to spot posers. leave

What makes this thread so inherently retarded is how widely varying both these genres are. If you are one of the people trying to make arguments in favor of one or the other you are either a) baiting or b) know nothing about what you're talking about

Punk is damn good, but it doesn't reach the same heights as post-punk. Anybody over the age of 20 can tell you this. I loved punk when I was a teenager, but it doesn't hold up the same way post-punk does.

Are you actually trying to gatekeep post-punk with something nobody ever said?

This is the purest autism I've seen in months

*he never said

and how does YOU being unable to appreciate it anymore make it worse?

posers of what? do you think post punk was more commercial or "fake" than punk?
breaking news: post punk was not even punk.

hey brainlet, my post was about the point of the thread itself

Then you probably shouldn't direct your post to another post and tell that person to leave.

You know, like a regular person.

Gang of Four are definitely darker than the ramones, they have a more abrasive sound and their lyrics are serious and political

leave

>post-punk = low test betas who cry over the world's problems and their issues

>punk = high test betas who are angry and "rebel" against the world's problems and their issues

Post-punk ignores the point of punk music and then decides to make music that's totally different while also being pretentious as fuck. It's losers who are trying to make artsy music but have zero ability to make true art music.

Yeah, but Gang Of Four's music is nowhere near as energetic as The Ramones. It has a much lighter, thinner sound with rhythms in grooves rather than a full on assault.

I dunno to me it just sounds like guys who like making tunes

It's the punk ideals but with actual music, that's really it

It's why the early post-punk bands were all punk pioneers who wanted to do something that actually mattered, sounded good or challenged themselves

Yeah, just like punk it eventually became something people with no talent or dreams could do but the initial explosion had much loftier ideals and FAR more diversity than punk rock

Yeah, but they are boring ass tunes though. Sure punk music is far more straightforward, but that's because it doesn't have delusions of grandeur, and is arguably one of if the best genres at what it tries to do.

>It's the punk ideals but with actual music, that's really it
Not really since it's not musically like punk at all as not a single post-punk band matches the sheer intensity of a punk band.

>It's why the early post-punk bands were all punk pioneers who wanted to do something that actually mattered, sounded good or challenged themselves
Bullshit. Pere Ubu and Television were doing stuff like that from the start. Same with Talking Heads if they count, too. The only person this applies to is Lydon.
>had much loftier ideals and FAR more diversity than punk rock
Yet it couldn't match those ambitions at all musically. It's got a lot of variety on the surface, but there's a reason that scene itself only lasted for about 7-9 years meanwhile punk continued on.

because it took the aesthetic sensibilities of punk and added technical ability, originality, and experimentation

>Yeah, but they are boring ass tunes though.
Says who?

behave yourself, spellbound is the most exciting tune ever conceived
a lot of fall songs as well, this heat...

>punk continued on
No, it didn't. Punk evolved into hardcore, and emo, and goth, and pretty much everything EXCEPT for straight forward punk. Straight forward punk died some time around 1982.

>not musically like punk at all
Why do retards always say this?

I see, you're arguing post-punk as a specific sound and not post-punk as the movement, my bad, I misunderstood what discussion we were having, you're wrong about some things even in the discussion you are having but I'm not interested in that discussion so I'll drop it

iceage have stated on multiple occasions that they dont think of themselves as a punk or post-punk band. (source: iceage documentary)

post punk is shit music for little pretentious twink faggots

reporting in

the irony here is that you sound like a fag

>tracks that go much longer than standard punk rock tracks yet don't have enough changes on top to make it interesting
>attempts at adding influences from other genres yet fail at being anywhere near as good as those genres (eg. lack of the kind of rhythmic variation dub music actually brought in the music of PiL and GOF)
>often attempts to be serious music that tries to explore and deconstruct the meaning of melody, harmony, timbre yet never develops ideas like that as far as actual introverted/introspective genres like western art music or jazz
Because it's not?
Yeah, and I am making an argument that the whole entire line is superior to the line that comes from post-punk (noise rock, alt rock, indie rock, etc.) Things like hardcore, powerviolence, metalcore, grindcore, etc. didn't forget the initial facets of the genre and evolved keeping those in mind.
I am arguing for both, looking at the musical qualities of post-punk bands and its definition as movement that influenced certain other forms of music that were as far from punk as possible.

the problem here is that I specifically mentioned bands that didn't do those things and you ignore them so...

Which ones? I didn't come into this topic until:

>Post-punk ignores the point of punk music and then decides to make music that's totally different...
That's my first post.

The problem with any discussion about post-punk is there are two groups of people, the ones who think post-punk means the bands post-punk revival was inspired by (a specific sound that can be from any time) and those that mean post-punk, the movement, which includes genres like new wave, goth, industrial, anarcho-punk, synthpop, noise rock, etc. (but from a specific period of time)

There's a HUGE difference between the two so if you want to start a discussion, you have to immediately indicate which one you are referring to

you replied to me lad. here I am:

The fuck is going on with this kids fingers?
He looks like an alien.

Rhythmically simple arpeggio melodies that are based in basic ass pentatonic shapes on the guitar like all generic rock music. Lack of interesting vocal parts since Siouxsie sings within the same range and delivers all her vocals the same exact way. Majority of the track is based on the same three chords bar maybe the last bit in the final chorus I think. Lacks the intensity of punk rock.

It's literally exactly what I described.

GOAT post punk song here.

youtube.com/watch?v=ElhAysq3O6c

Is pop punk considered post-punk?

Unfortunately for you, this exists

youtube.com/watch?v=71s-T8oUTQs

Some stuff that could be considered pop punk now may have been post-punk but generally no, the pop punk movement happened long after post-punk

>Rhythmically simple arpeggio melodies that are based in basic ass pentatonic shapes on the guitar like all generic rock music.
so? it's cool and ominous in ways that the traditional punk form didn't allow
>Lack of interesting vocal parts since Siouxsie sings within the same range and delivers all her vocals the same exact way
very melodramatic and works for the song quite nicely indeed
>Majority of the track is based on the same three chords bar maybe the last bit in the final chorus I think
that's incorrect but even if that were the case: so?
>Lacks the intensity of punk rock.
it obviously isn't as aggressive as some punk rock but its marriage of moody arpeggios and aggressive guitar strumming is delightful in its own right and you're a bitch not to see that

this.

>Some stuff that could be considered pop punk now may have been post-punk but generally no
Like Green Day? Or atleast their early albums?

The Pop Group is barely even punk either desu
Having loud angry guitars doesn't automatically make your music punk

No, that was way after post-punk, post punk ended in the mid-80's, like '83-'85

Wrong. Top 5 of post-punk:

youtube.com/watch?v=1VzIvIacMSU
youtube.com/watch?v=OMJJmdlZoPw
youtube.com/watch?v=iMrOMye0tR4
youtube.com/watch?v=PGn5JcG9-3s
youtube.com/watch?v=m8niKKl-BVE

>Colin Newman
Excellent taste but Life On Deck and & Jury are both better

>so? it's cool and ominous in ways that the traditional punk form didn't allow
But traditional punk doesn't try to be ominous. And there's nothing ominous about arpeggios that can be heard in a ton of other rock music, too. Fucking listen to a composer like Penderecki or Sciarrino for ominous.
>very melodramatic and works for the song quite nicely indeed
Maybe so because the rest of the track itself is so restrictive and boring. Music that's considered "gothic" doesn't need to be lacking in engagement, see Bach's Cantatas.
>that's incorrect but even if that were the case: so?
Bb chord on the first fret on a guitar don't play top note, C chord on the third fret on a guitar, and D chord on the fifth fret on a guitar. These all start on the A string. You get all but like three of the notes in the track, which are covered by the shapes.

This is very simple music. Music like The Banshees here doesn't have the intensity of punk rock, right which uses its simplicity as a blunt bludgeon on the listener? So that means it's trying to more stimulate the listener on a more cerebral level. I am fine with that. But this kind of music isn't very engaging for the listener at doing something like that. It uses cliches which are not used in any interesting way at all.

Pop punk started in like the early/mid 90s so what was inbetween?

The Descendants

Off the top of my head (because I haven't actually tried making such lists in years)

>Rema-Rema - Feedback Song
>New Order - Ceremony
>Einstürzende Neubauten - Kollaps
>Swell Maps - Blenheim Shots/A Raincoat's Room
>The Mekons - Corporal Chalkie or The Mob - I Wish

Well you see, there's a huge difference between British and American punk for one, not even the same genre

But basically for some people, punk never died so there was a version of it that existed well past its expiration date and that's what pop-punk came out of but it had none of the spirit of post-punk because the punk it was coming from was nothing like the original punk rock

Reminder post punk was the first interesting genre rock music produced

>But traditional punk doesn't try to be ominous
yeah I know, post-punk does other things which is why many find it more interesting
>And there's nothing ominous about arpeggios that can be heard in a ton of other rock music, too
what does that have to do with anything? the tune is self-evidently ominous mate. that sequence of notes creates that atmosphere.
>Fucking listen to a composer like Penderecki or Sciarrino for ominous.
I have but I'm not sure what this comparison means. I don't listen to rock music for microtonal orchestral pieces.
>Maybe so because the rest of the track itself is so restrictive and boring
not true, it has a simple but effective dynamic changes that siouxsie facilitates with her voice
>Music that's considered "gothic" doesn't need to be lacking in engagement, see Bach's Cantatas.
"lacking in engagement"? see these are subjective things lad. who listens to goth rock music expecting fucking bach pieces? I just don't understand you at all

I can't be bothered to check the chords but you may be right

>This is very simple music
so?

things don't magically fall into a strict camp of "cerebral" and "agressive "body" music" mate. the song is a unique marriage of the two. granted there have been derivative acts since but that makes the track no less original

I see some similarities between early pop punk and "real" punk desu

There's similarities but overall it's completely different, for one thing, if punk rock was a reaction to progressive rock...then the punk rock that pop-punk came out of was a refusal to accept the existence of post-punk, it wasn't a reaction to anything, just a continuation of it, that's why all the political punk groups split off into other genres like Fugazi or Crass, it's hard to get out your aggression and ideals and just stick to the same formulaic music that isn't progressing at all

What about Jazz fusion?
Prog Rock?
(You) Rock?

>Jazz fusion?
i don't consider it rock

>Prog Rock?
dude symphonic and kilometric solos lmao

krautrock was cool tho

>yeah I know, post-punk does other things which is why many find it more interesting
But that's just shallow. Sure, post-punk tried out a bunch of things, but they all suck ass.
>what does that have to do with anything? the tune is self-evidently ominous mate. that sequence of notes creates that atmosphere.
Dude ffs it's the same notes you hear in 90% of rock music. Any aspect of "ominous" you're thinking of is what's in your own head not what's evident of the music itself.
>I have but I'm not sure what this comparison means. I don't listen to rock music for microtonal orchestral pieces.
>either of those
>microtonal
Dude, at least do a google search or something before trying to engage in topics you have no clue about. If you had actually listened to either of those, they explore traditionally "ominous" and "dark" sounding atmospheres while being far more melodically, rhythmically, harmonically, and timbrally interesting than anything The Banshees have ever done.
>not true, it has a simple but effective dynamic changes that siouxsie facilitates with her voice
Even Nickleback has a straightforward dynamic change like that, too. It's nothing special.
>"lacking in engagement"? see these are subjective things lad
Not when one looks at the qualities of the music and see how much there is to ween for the listener. There isn't much to ween off of The Banshees or any post-punk. It's too repetitive to be interesting for people except lazy listeners.

>things don't magically fall into a strict camp of "cerebral" and "agressive "body" music" mate.
Of course. Aggressive music still has metal, some metalcore/mathcore, or some of the more rhythmically complex hip hop that still goes hard. Cerebral music has works like Threnody or a lot of Wagner's stuff. But they are highly engaging, often using the other to supplement their main goal. Post-punk doesn't work like that, it's not that sophisticated to figure such things out.

what's your favorite music? name some bands you like, i'm curios.

Not him, but it's not even about that. Do yourself a favor and find out how the Sex Pistols were formed. I'd recommend Punk Britannia documentary. You'll understand why punk doesn't hold up. If you want to admit it, that's another story.