So I've been reading into MGTOW philosophy and I came across a post that is causing some serious cognitive dissonance...

So I've been reading into MGTOW philosophy and I came across a post that is causing some serious cognitive dissonance. Can we come up with some counter-arguments

> In the past only 30 to 40 percent of men were able to reproduce. This suggests that hypergamy is not the result of recent cultural trends but the natural sexual structure of humanity that was evolved through thousands of generations. Stop trying to fight deep rooted biological programming. Either work on your mate value/courtship skills to become more like chad or stop complaining. That is the cruel reality of participating in the courtship game as a male. Evolution only cares about those who were successful in propagating their genes. Get good or fuck off.

Other urls found in this thread:

lmgtfy.com/?q=financial domination
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Monogamy is what allowed our civilization to flourish. It gave Beta men who were smarter, but not necessarily stronger, a chance to flourish.

Take away monogamy, and 3000+ years of Western Civilization comes crashing down, because no more women will mate with Beta men.

This. Also real monogamy involves arranged or somewhat planned marriage where the families take part in courtship. The whole idea of "dating" is bullshit.

The above is true, but that doesn't mean most "MGTOW" guys aren't good goy idiots who are usually porn and/or casual sex addicts.

The important thing is NEVER believe any biological, evolutionary argument for human behavior.

people are not animals. fuck Darwinism.

The MGTOW "movement" is a kike shill tactic. There's nothing wrong with being a single man, but there is something very wrong in a movement that aggressively promotes it.

Which is why betas aren't bothering. They have nothing to offer women who can take care of themselves, because those women only want to open their legs for men who have a shitload of money (way more than them) or are super hot/popular.

The average guy who would work and contribute to society can see he will either live a life jerking off or getting together with a sub-par slut who has had a ton of dick and will never love him because her cunt is numb

You're delusional if you don't think there are a ton of men who are completely gated out of the sexual market in the modern world where A.) women can support themselves and B.) are keeping their "vaginal gold" for the plethora of Chads they have access to in a hundred mile radius on their smartphones, ready to come to them.

Women today can make an online dating profile and get men begging them to fuck -- 900 men -- within a week.

Your grandmother wouldn't get that many guys in her life hitting on her.

Do you really think they're going to settle for the average chump -- who is a prius -- when they can just rent a new ferrari every fucking weekend?

>people are not animals. fuck Darwinism.

literally kill yourself.

Man you faggots are insane.

Escaping the trap of being a Calhoun "beautiful one" is as simple as being better than any of the males in your immediate circle. Have a better body, be more charismatic, be stronger, have more access to money or nice things.

In your office, in your gym, in your campus, whatever. The problem is most of this website never goes outside or participates in a social circle so they have nobody to attain nor compete with.

You're just a weak pussy that can't handle the truth.

I have legitimate autism, and have ever since I was a kid. I'm still more successful than most of the people I grew up except socially , and managed to go from being in special education inclusion classes at age 10 to now having a master's in engineering from an ivy league school, and a high paying job. But I've pretty much recognized that I'm incapable of being normal enough to have a family. I've had thoughts of looking for a similarly autistic virgin wife, but really I'm too defective and should just go be celibate and focus on other things.

Having a job, a degree, your own place, a car and money is enough for a lot of women. Even if you're awkward.

The trick is to be someone they wouldn't mind being seen with.

The thing is, is that there still seems to be an embargo on discussing this.

Many many people want to tell themselves everything right now is wholesome and fair, but more and more people are waking up to things similar to what you say. Western culture is not a fair game of monogamy and equality; rather, it is a game where women are the winners by default and they barely have to put any effort in to get the top score. Like playing a game on tutorial mode with cheats enabled.

MGTOW is a trap to get betas to oppose marriage, which is the only thing that ever saved them from this fate in the past.

modern marriage is shit, mostly because contrary to what people believe marriage isn't about love.

Men aren't innocent either, promiscuous men are as much of a problem as sluts.

>Having a job, a degree, your own place, a car and money is enough for a lot of women. Even if you're awkward.

How kind of them to have such humble expectations of us.

>MGTOW is bad for men in a world where attention whorls and supplication to women has fucked everything

>How kind of them to have such humble expectations of us.
Thats life. For those who cannot accept it, there is MGTOW.

I accept it, until I realize that I'd rather use all those things to enrich my life rather than some whore's.

I think it's positive thing to reject the vaginal jew but I have my doubts about MGTOW. It feels like they're still obsessed with women. They're not gay and they will never be gay, they will always be in-between. But be aware guys like Milo prey on men like this, much like how SA was formed.

Yet men having their own standards in women - especially men not wanting to date/marry sluts - is now considered misogynistic. Alright then.

MGTOW exists for a reason, and it is a dead-end, but everyone pretty much knows that. This idealistic fantasy of "fall in love, get married" fell apart because nobody and nothing was enforcing it anymore.

Men are not innocent either, but Chad Thundercock is more to blame there than the average man. What bothers me more than anything is how women have the ultimate advantage in all this, yet people still lie and say they don't, then they use that as an excuse so women can gain even more power.

I just don't understand MGTOW. Women today are easiest as never before in Human history. Why you don't go and fuck them?

I agree with their views on marriage.

You have to look at the opposite. An ideal woman doesn't sleep around, doesn't have a substance addiction, doesn't have a kid, keeps in shape, knows how to take care of herself (not just physically but in life) and has a sense of loyalty.

Both members of a relationship have standards to keep.

It'd be interesting to see which is more plentiful. The man with the car, degree, job, etc. or the woman with your criteria.

In that case all of us are here today because tens of thousands of our ancestors were Chad Thundercock alphas who reproduced successfully? So why are we not all alphas?

> In the past only 30 to 40 percent of men were able to reproduce.
The number is fake.

>super hot/popular.

are you fucking 14 years old?

This.

>MGTOW exists for a reason, and it is a dead-end, but everyone pretty much knows that.

you don't win the game by not participating, idiot. That's how Gen X got fucked.

You demand participation on your terms.

because it's not true. Arranged marriage in some form was the norm for most of history.

>stop trying to improve don't reinforce the nuclear family as the building block of civilization give in to your base urges

fuck off

I think anons point was men are demonized if they don't want to settle for less.

MGTOW think they will in the long run.
"If we don't play this game, women would not obtain anything."

I don't consider myself a MGTOW, sausagefag. But I still seek to do things on my terms. Of course I do. I could go on and on about this, but Sup Forums's attitude with MGTOW and women doesn't help at all. Young males have no incentive to submit to women and how atrocious women are definitely plays a huge role in this, whether people want to admit it or not.

Wrong post ill go pay the jizya and get some sleep.

MGTOW is the ultiamte cuckfag internet fantasy

cuckfags thrive on self-pain inflication to get off, MGTOW is the ultimate form of this as they convince themselves that the entire world and human evolution is a conspiracy to deny them sex and grant it to Chad Thundercock, a perfect alpha rich dude who exists in their mind

they can sit behind their keyboards talking about pseudo-science as they get the mental high they need to indulge their cuckoldry fantasies on the ultimate and final level

Even if every man did this, women would just import men from elsewhere. It's not a game you play in an open world.

Convert to Islam, beat your wife 24/7, no one will say a word.

Literally why? These bottom 60% are not even in play in the first place so who cares? They absence will not be missed and I can bet you ever fucking last one of them will go back into the market when they get old, lonely, and afraid of death.

This is actually true. It gave millions and millions of beta males a reason to live and thus a reason to labor. If monogamy did not exist, these beta males would only produce what is necessary to support themselves.

I think a better for of your arguement is this because it is biology, because the less attractive (more smart) but weaker mate never gets the girl in a purely biological situation

Nigger I'm a 7/10 neckbeard neet.
I'm currently engaged to a 9/10 girl who is 100% set on financially supporting myself and our children just because I'm not fucking retarded and know how to talk to people like a human being.
These MGTOW faggots really are the most pathetic faggots I've ever seen.

>Chad Thundercock, a perfect alpha rich dude who exists in their mind

I have seen many Chad Thundercocks in my life. I currently know two of them I occasionally talk with, sometimes we go out and do things. Chad Thundercock does indeed exist, and it's funny because they have less respect for women than I do. Despite all my Internet misogyny, Chad Thundercock has less respect for women than me. It's amazing.

That's like shooting yourself in advance when someone tries to rob you.

Chad Thundercock wasn't the only one getting laid centuries ago. Before the welfare state and birth control, women had to choose loyal providers or they and their children would die.

Chad Thundercock owes his success to the welfare state and birth control technologies invented and maintained by beta males.

you should really get a job. It's possibly even more emasculating to be owned by a female breadwinner

MGTOW's win condition is that every man on earth who's not already married to le perfect virgin gets on board, that laws are changed so that a woman you don't want to fuck can't just claim false rape if she wants' your shit, and that even chad of all people, who gets it for free, turns down sex every.single.time. They can only make themselves happy, they cannot fix the system for the rest of mankind.

100% agree

>pseudo-science
It's true that women are driven by hipergamy.
It's true that a % of men have been displaced by sexual revolution.
It's true that nuclear family and the institution is almost dead.

The problem is no the diagnosis, is what they propose.

If you want to take the 50% chance of letting the cunt take all of your life's work and custody of the children, then get married.

*institution of family

You're right, I'm so emasculated to be dating a girl out of my league who will literally do anything for me. How can I ever face all the kissless virgins on Sup Forums ever again..

She's testing you. Is he really that much of a bitch that he's willing to let me provide for him and our child? Have fun in a few years.

I converted to Islam (fuck off) and went to Iran and left with a wife at the end of my trip. Totally worth it, and she's great. Idk why arranged marriage has such a stigma considering not doing it that way is like less than 200 years old.

No, the true MGTOW utopia is Elliot Rodger's universe. But he probably think of the chance that men just start fucking each other.

kek. You guys really are pathetic when it comes to your view of relationships.
Nah senpai, she's just smart enough to realize that I have fucked up my chances at having a good career at this point in my life whilst she is still in a position to succeed.
But fuck it, this is Sup Forums you guys can't believe anything positive about a woman unless she's making shitty anti-semetic youtube videos

>Monogamy is what allowed our civilization to flourish. It gave Beta men who were smarter, but not necessarily stronger, a chance to flourish.
So close to figuring it out and yet so far

Beta men aren't smarter, and they aren't "weaker"; it's not a physical thing. It's a genetic attractiveness thing. The "alphas" are smart, fast, strong, healthy, tall - they are everything you'd want when picking a male specimen.

Monogamy reduces the benefit of female genetic selection (hypergamy) in exchange for stable societies. Because men, instead of competing with each other to prove they are alphas and win over female interest and reproduce, are now working together to build society up, with the knowledge that they will have a wife and children so long as they simply contribute to society as a whole.

It is NOT intelligence vs strength idiocy. Alphas are outright better in every single way. It's about forcing women to choose less attractive men than they could otherwise get (by sharing those men with other women), so that the larger population of men don't waste all their time fighting each other.

It is fundamentally what western civilization is built on, and is one of the primary reasons we've achieved as much as we have.

>There's nothing wrong with being a single man, but there is something very wrong in a movement that aggressively promotes it.


this

>Even if every man did this, women would just import men from elsewhere. It's not a game you play in an open world.

The primary goal of MGTOW is to destroy the transfer of wealth from men to women. This is currently done through marriage/alimony/child support and the welfare state. By not marrying or knocking up a woman, men can eliminate the first type of wealth transfer, and by only working the minimum necessary for each man to enjoy his own life he denies extra tax revenue to the state that would be transferred to women.

Those imported men would not create anywhere close to the economic value of the guys going MGTOW.

my god you're completely clueless

This.

>Monogamy reduces the benefit of female genetic selection (hypergamy) in exchange for stable societies.

That was sort of his point though.

When men are treated as disposable slaves, and demonized, and do not have as much access to women as they'd like, they get royally pissed.

Women are degenerate the way they are today because western culture gives them the advantage, and we cannot even criticize them at all. The little dudebros on here that say "YOU JUST GOTTA FUCK HER HARD MAN" are ignoring the bigger picture and are wrong.

Many people in this thread are saying the same thing but in many different ways. It will be interesting to see how things progress as this current status quo intensifies.

Females prefer Carly brown tattoos?

>The primary goal of MGTOW is to destroy the transfer of wealth from men to women.

That's what the jew already does. Women now rely on state,in stead relying on their men. State dependence - no dissent.
Good job being a good goy.

lmgtfy.com/?q=financial domination

this user is correct

MGTOW: Strong independent men who don't need no woman!

Feminism: Strong independent women who don't need no woman!

But inside they where all sad and broken blaming others for their stupid mistakes and lifestyles.

The end.

>>people are not animals. fuck Darwinism.
This is bait right? I remember some girl actually arguing "well we are beyond biology".

I agree.

But the real discussion here is about monogamy vs. free sexual market.

Females only care about three things: height, face and frame.

The problem is that the institutions of marriage and the laws protecting it, have become one-sided.

Marriage itself is a good thing, but we've eliminated all the things that punish female infidelity while keeping all the laws that enforce the male side of the deal.

It is MEANT to be a give-and-take for BOTH sides. The woman gets a guaranteed provider for life, so she can be secure in the knowledge that her children will be taken care of; with laws protecting her even if the man reneges on the deal at some point.

The man gets guaranteed reproductive rights, with knowledge that his children are actually HIS children and he has no obligation to take care of the children of other men, with all his obligations removed should the woman commit infidelity.

And a mutual option of divorce if the two feel as though the contract no longer works to their benefit.

But right now, it's not this. It's women-get-everything and men-get-nothing. That's why MGTOW looks on marriage with such disdain, but the institution of marriage is a good thing, the problem is that it has been twisted and corrupted by female "emancipation".

>In the past
When was this exactly? Does this include the 20th century? This stat needs a defined time period or else its incredibly vague and unreliable.

>30 to 40 percent
Maybe there are other reasons than just hypergamy like constant war campaigns with hundreds of thousands of men dying and leaving no genetic offspring.
Does this number include the number of male children and the high infant mortality rate in the past? Or just the mortality rate in general. Diseases like the plague were rampant in those days killing men and women in the millions.
Does this source include the number of women that didn't reproduce? I suspect that many women wouldn't want to reproduce due to the significantly higher probability of dying during childbirth in the past.

Do you have a source for this study?

>MGTOW is a trap to get betas to oppose marriage

You're the worst sort of dumb shit retard that can exist. Marriage no longer exists. The institution has been completely replaced, but they still call it 'marriage' because idiots like you only see the words and the surface instead of the actual underlying contract and the way it's changed.

Examining modern 'marriage' with honest eyes, it would most accurately be called 'male slavery'. Only women benefit from marriage, and only the rights and interests of women are protected when the 'contract' is dissolved. To a man it means losing 50%-100% of your wealth, and giving a woman 100% control of their children and their future. Without laws against adultery that are enforced, and guaranteed custody of your children, what the fuck is the point for men?

Fucking die.

>MGTOW
>still fuck chicks but don't marry them or spend anything on them
>donate sperm so genetics preserved
>etc.

One leads to a thriving healthy society, the other leads to faggerty, degeneracy and death all around. Hmm, that's a hard one. Oh wait.. MUH DICK!

But which side has the support of the media, educational system, and the government?

there's no need to be a chad unless you want a top tier stacy. which isn't worth it at all, since these women are exclusively sociopathic, having praise and admiration for things like walking and breathing all their lives.
other than that, finding sex isn't nearly as hard as Sup Forumstards make it out to be

>Beta men who were smarter, not stronger

Alphas are both smart and strong. Betas are smart and weak or strong and dumb.

Omegas are weak and stupid.

Like you.

>Keeps in shape, has loyalty

The rest of your list literally takes no effort on a woman's part to attain value. Literally none.

This post made my head hurt.
Female sexuality is not like male sexuality, you can't riddle off a list of attractive things.

Women are extremely complex in how they pick men. Stereotypical tall, fast, handsome is actually not the full truth it's only a portion of how attraction works.

you can say it's dumb, but you can't argue that it's happening and there's tens of thousands of guys out there that will never marry.

if anything, this is more about how marriage is fucked and dead and we will start seeing massive statistical drops in marriages over the next 30 years which will completely change our society and will bring in more immigration because the population will severely dip in the next 30 years.

What else is there to do dude? Die out slowly? No. Find one, man up and have some kids. Live a minimalist life and trust your instincts. It's worth it.

You'll get a few years older and realize the pendulum will NEVER swing our way if you don't do this. Don't quit like a bitch and MGTOW. Women are fucking children, you can't blame them for their stupidity and naiveties.

Even staying in shape shouldn't require much effort. Just don't eat like a cow and you can stay relatively thin. Guys don't require girls have 6-pack abs or well developed biceps.

But guys don't just have to be non-fat, they have to lift weights to build muscles in order to increase their attractiveness.

I think what differentiates men in that regard is their drive and ambition, some men's ambition is like a goddamn fire.

I'm sure Mark Antony was an alpha considering he was a general, but he still wasn't Emperor material like Caesar.

you sound like a sad virgin desu

MGTOW is a circle jerk of beta faggots who don't know how to get laid. Gammas, sigmas and alphas know how to play the game.

ITT: short guys convinced that all tall, muscular guys MUST be stupid

>Not all women!
bruh

This. People think MGTOW is bad because they tell the core family to fuck itself, but in reality women are relying on the state instead of their families.
The "core conservative traditional family" supporter is just too beta to understand women and the state are parts of the problem.

>implying it was a good choice making our civilization flourish

3000+years later and the only thing we have left is a world that:
-is getting destroyed so we can produce things,
-have societies that literally are all up their asses with all their mental gymnastics about how great they are that they're not seeing they're about to destroy their society with their liberal politics
-is changing the concepts of men and women with a new one that is not natural at all

We changed a structure where the strongest was the winner and where humans were happy satisfying their needs and cravings for that world

Only because before those men died from diseases, wars etc.

Life is so easy now. You can decide whatever lifestyle you want. You can enjoy being single. Hell you can even choose to be gay and no one will discriminate against you. These are happy times for men.

>Women are degenerate the way they are today because western culture gives them the advantage

Women default to hypergamy behaviour because it's the most successful sexual selection trait for humans so far.

Men have become genetic experiments with greater variance in traits, women select the cream of the crop and the next generation is born only with the best traits. That's basically eugenics in action, but accomplished via thousands of years of evolutionary selection on the psyche of women.

Basically, the societies where women behave this way have outcompeted the societies where women have not behaved this way.

We are now transitioning to a phase in human evolution where caveman-era sexual selection is LESS beneficial - the hypergamous society is also a society of constant attrition and infighting, and is much more easily broken apart from outside by a more conformist and cooperative group. That conformity and cooperation is made possible by social contracts like marriage.

This is fundamentally what laws are about. It's why we punish criminals instead of just letting them do whatever they want.

The thing is, modern society doesn't see hypergamy as the criminal act that it is equivalent to. They don't see how it is destructive to social order, nor how it weakens society as a whole. It's a case where the freedom of the individual has run roughshod over common sense. It'd be equivalent to saying, "Well, it's okay for this guy to steal if he can get away with it", while simultaneously punishing anyone who tries to deal with the thieves.

It's accelerated destruction of society, and it's intentional. Some (((group))) is pushing for this "emancipation" of women for the express purpose of destroying western civilization. It's not women themselves, because they simply follow what authority tells them to do. It's a problem within our authority structure itself.

so what do women want?

>choose to be gay

Wew lad

That's not what he said you idiot, he said that you can identify all the traits that make a man attractive to a woman.

It's much more than just "le strong tall man" or else powerlifters would be drowning in pussy.

>What else is there to do dude? Die out slowly?
Get a life. Go contribute to society by studying or becoming a good enterpreneuer or politician. Get hobbies and friends.

What's MGTOW, exactly? (I know what it stands for).
As in, if I don't want to marry or have children, am I considered one? How does this work?

People think arranged marriage is the same thing as forced marriage, especially in Islam when it's the opposite.

This is bullshit because if you want to go back to the supposedly natural way of things, the law of the jungle of hypergamy you have to also bring back murder and rape. Murder and rape are ways to equal the playing field. Those that are more bloodthirsty are able to kill off the competition of Chads and rape the women.

I'll be ok with hypergamy if murder and rape are also allowed. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I call it the dino-efffect.
Manlets think "the bigger the body the smaller the brain." Like a big dumb dinosaur.
It's the same as when ugly women think beautiful women have to be dumb.

Seems fitting that both have started political movements around their insecurities.

You've failed in life. Hers is just beginning. What value do you offer again? It's certainly not going to be being a role model for your kids.