Show proof why a raised minimum wage doesn't work

Show proof why a raised minimum wage doesn't work.

Protip: You Can't

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When you raise the price of something(such as labor) you lower the demand. If you had bothered to learn economics you'd understand that.

okay
now why is that bad

...

some jobs aren't worth minimum wage

"Work" at what? If you want to bar even more of your citizens from starting their careers, it works great. Beggars are easier for socialists to manipulate, after all.

people stop buying
you can't pay your workers
layoffs

She is raising my minimum right now


also prices would get higher to balance it out

>Sup Forums listening to anyone that confirms their retarded neolib ideology


pathetic

>raise minimum wage
>company expenses rise
>company raises prices to cover costs
>inflation happens
>your new $12/hour salary has the same purchasing power as your $7/hour salary before

welcome to economics 101

Because if labor costs are too high the entrepreneur will either reduce them or go out of business, either by firing employees, moving to somewhere where labor costs are lower, or replacing people with machines.

Proof: ur a fag

>wages rise
>increased consumer demand
>company gets more sales overall
>working class wins

neolibs are so fucking dumb

>hurr the minimum wage is too high

except it's been getting lower over time and not higher

Where was all that mass starvation in the 60s because of a higher minimum wage? Oh right there was none.

>>increased consumer demand
??? how

higher wages= more demand
lower wages = lower demand

Except that's not how businesses operate.
>demand decreases
>firm raises price to reach equilibrium for revenue
So far so good
>demand increases
>firm raises price to capitalize on increased interest in product
Whoops.

PPE is fucked on all fronts.

Kiki Kakuchi

The problem with that scenario is that you are mixing up who is demanding and who is supplying
If labor is in supply, then the people who would reflect the demand curve would be employers and business owners
They will employ less people, they will still be able to pay their workers, lay-offs will only happen if right off the bat companies refuse to give the white collar workers less

Basically people are asking rich guys to redistribute the wealth and the rich guys are telling everyone who oversees the minimum wage workers that lay offs would happen when really what would happen would be that they wouldn't get any promotions
And in a perfect world, instead of the CEO getting a 2+million dollar bonus, the rest of the money would just go towards all the employees


The only reason stuff like this doesn't work is because people want money and the rich want to be just as rich as they were the year before

>demand decreases
>firm raises price

wat

>>company raises prices to cover costs
>>inflation happens

holy fucking shit Sup Forums is so uneducated about inflation
both the lefites and the right.

nice fake chart. minimum wage hasnt decreased and calling a value you think up "real" doesnt make it so

that's like saying

"Hey, Federal Reserve! Just print a couple billion extra and give every poor man in the US $10K!! This will solve all poverty"

you can't just change the wages and disregard the prices set by the free market

A shift in demand isn't the same as a decrease in demand
Instead of shifting, the equilibrium just moves to a different place on the demand curve and there is a shortage or a surplus of some kind
In this case, it would be a surplus of labor because more people want to work for 15 dollars an hour

Well, the logical conclusion becomes if minimum wage raises are good, why not further raise the minimum wage?

Instead of 15 or whatever, why not 50?

>>wages rise

they simply don't, that's the thing.

Yes, but that also works for the wages themselves. If the price of labor goes up, the demand of labor should naturally go down.

>free market
>only a fraction of the market controls the actual price of the market
the free market isn't actually free
there's less government regulation that a lot of other markets, but it's not free in the sense that it's open to everyone and anyone can make a chance

are you actually suggesting that increasing the prices of goods won't trigger inflation?

it won't trigger HIGH inflation
inflation alone isn't a bad idea
small amounts of inflation is fine and natural

if the market was genuinely free there would be no "minimum wage" to begin with :^)

the only reason you get minimum wage is because your labour is worth less than what you get.
if your labour was worth more than what you get, other companies would be willing to hire you for a higher pay.

still, if raising the minimum wage will trigger inflation, the purchasing power of your higher salary will drop accordingly

nominal=don't take into account inflation
real=take into account inflation

how can you pretend to know anything about economics if you don't know something this basic?

You mean like when the US government "printed" trillions of dollars to save Wall Street?

why would a decrease in demand of "anything" lead to higher prices?

they objectively do

but consumer demand overall has gone up so overall there is "more" demand for labor.

Not really. Once minimum wages rise above a certain point (i.e. above the cost of electricity to pay for a robot) then it will not be feasible for them to rise anymore. Firms won't be able to survive if they are paying all their employees $50 an hour because this would eliminate any profit.

Minimum wage is good up to a point. Countries like USA are highly cucked with their 'tipping culture' which only exists because they pay their employees $5/hr.

the increase of price index is an effect of the increase of money supply
it doesn't happen by just increasing the minimum wage

if they increase the minimum wage without the central bank increasing the money supply to make up for it, there would not be inflation, there would be massive unemployment and companies going broke.

pls stfu commie bastard

>muh LARPing special snowflake free market with no evil government ever

die ancap scum

Don't be a faggot raise it to 100 per hour

the "white collar guys" simply leave and go to places where their wage isn't redistributed to the lowliest labourers

>Keynes
>communist

No Brazil *you* are the communist

Economy fucked :
you raise the minimum wage. inflation makes stuff increase prices, people now have more money they can buy more stuff, but since the inflation the sellers start raising the prices due low value of the currency.

Economy flourishing :
raise minimum wage now people have more money with a powerful currency, they can invest and make X great again. That is the best moment to increase minimum wages and offer loans to the people.

Any other situation is gamble, to try to heat the economy that can backfire. Just like brazil.

>wages are "redistributed"

kek you are so delusional

when consumer demand is high white collar workers get paid more not less

>implying
minimum wage here is € 4,45 if you're 18 and € 7,09 if you're 21

yet for some reason there's no need for public outcry to raise minimum wages here.

Didn't even read the thread cuz of tiddies

You posted something that isn't true, and I've only taken one macroecon and one microecon. Do you actually have any clue what you're talking about or are you throwing around buzzwords for argumentative weight?

>if your labour was worth more than what you get, other companies would be willing to hire you for a higher pay
but companies demand labor at the lowest prices available
in order to keep companies from continually just lowering their wage amount, a price floor was set so that companies would just settle of a wage amount to stop potential fluctuation
An extremely skilled and efficient fast food worker receives the same amount of money as a lazy and sloppy fast food worker because people in charge say "I am willing to pay people this much to do this work"
eventually yes that lazy and sloppy fast food worker might get fired if he's lazy and sloppy enough, but at the same time, his work was still worth as much as the good employee


>trigger inflation
You keep saying that as if there isn't already inflation
say "increase the rate of inflation" because you sound like an idiot

You still don't understand how inflation works
In your picture, everything above the X-axis shows inflation
It shows high inflation at the peaks, but towards the beginning of the graph it still shows inflation
Obviously, low inflation is good, but high inflation, no inflation, or negative inflation is bad

>China cuts imports
>Brazil economy tanks
>Brazil thinks it has "anything" to do with domestic economy

stupid huemonkeys

Americans have a lot of expenses Euros don't have

>healthcare
>education
>transport

Apples and Oranges

I'm sorry your neolib high school econ class was full of bullshit, but I don't really care

I'm sure you also learned about the benefits of mass immigration and outsourcing during your indoctrination.

you just said the point of a higher minimum wage is for the "white collar guys" to make less as a portion of their current wages goes to subsidize the higher wages for the labourers. that's literally redistribution

and that's not even what happens in real life. companies just downsize their front life staff, instead.

Because mountain jews say so.

>Protip: You Can't
Remember to report these kinds of OPs, everyone

Dogfucker and pissdrinker

I'm okay with a raised minimum wage. I just think $15/hour is too much.

never said there wasn't inflation, serious economists generally recommend 3% a year.
the increase of money supply should keep up with the demand for it, if your objective is to make prices stable. If you print over demand, prices rise. The EU has a 2% policy and they almost had deflation last year.

but the idea that deflation is terrible is unconvincing. Take the area of electronics and computer. If I delay buying a giving laptop by 6 months, I'll probably be able to buy the same model for 50% cheaper or something. Yet this doesn't impact the economy negatively or prevents people from ever buying anything, even though holding the money is beneficial.

>you just said the point of a higher minimum wage is for the "white collar guys" to make less

white collar workers don't make less they make more

the only people who make less are the financial parasites and speculators (Soros, Bloomberg, Buffet, etc)

They aren't really "workers" by any stretch of the imagination they're just gamblers that can game the system.

Fuck off faggot, I want to see this argument.

Found the burger flipper

Negatively affects small business, less jobs and more job losses.

>everything gets shit expensive as here
>groceries
>rest food
>cinema tickets(fuck, forgot angry birds be runnin)
>lumber, raw materials, etc
all in all the prices will go up for the marked to regulate it self. You'll end up in a hell where a bottle of 1.5litres of coke costs you over 30NOK...

they will still have as little muneys, everything will be more expensive.

>not implying that the current sit is neither fair or good
but don't look here

why become an engineer when you can be a nurse and almost make the same.. well there is a diff on this one, but you catch my drift.
>I know uneducated people that washed floors in the north sea platforms when it was good times, raking in almost twice my salary(eng) and have 14 days off each 14th day...

>gotta go to college need muh degree
>Govt responds by giving out loans to everyone, college prices hike as a result
>everyone with massive loans gets useless feminist dance therapy degrees
>forced to work for shit tier wages because they have a degree worth nothing
>can't afford loan payments as a result
>need muh minimum wage increase forgive all my debt #feelthebern

NewYork faggot

I wonder if libshit faggots are aware most of the countries they love (Sweden) doesn't have a federally mandated minimum wage

She fucked a dog?

here's few off the top of my head but there's more:
1. it drives would-be entrepreneurs from legally starting their business for fear of being unable to meet the required contributions, often resorting to work outside the system without any legal protection
2. it does away with loads of below-min-wage-valued jobs and overburdains the remaining workers with more to be done, even killing entire industries because bottom line doesn't outweigh the effort
3. it raises costs of living and everyday consumer goods like food, clothing, etc because of the jump in demand, furthermore it affects rents and people having to rent are made even more vulnerable
4. #3 causes actual buying power of min wage workers to drop significantly over a short period of time
5. increases the sum of all welfare required for people unable to find work, causes a rise in criminal activity
6. it pisses off workers that had to slave away to what becomes min wage, negating their efforts, making certain industries less desirable and with worker deficits that are remedied by non-natives

I was raised with my two brother by a minimum wage working dad and a stay at home mother wtf is your problem?

>all the regular jobs go overseas or are filled with low wage Mexican labor
>force every millennial into college
>blame millennials for the system you made

Boomer logic

oh no looks like one of the illiterate commies leaked over from /his/

youtube.com/watch?v=kBjsQL7ZFvc
here min wage faggots

Illegal immigrants will undercut the legitimate workers

...

Socialism is more stupid than Neoliberalism.
Nationalism is also retarded, but less retarded than the former two cases.
Realism is the only answer, and reality has a neoliberal bent to it.

>minimum wage goes up
>employers higher fewer people
>welcome to the unemployment line

>but the idea that deflation is terrible is unconvincing
That's not deflation
The prices of those computers decrease because everyone who was going to buy the computer at that price (because at the time it was the newest model) has already bought it and because now that it's not the newest model and there's something even better out, new customers wouldn't pay the same price for the older model when they could buy the newer model

You still don't understand what in/deflation is

Because its easier to lay off faggots and replace them with machines.

>homeless
he's a fucking caviar commie freeloader that's living off my tax monies as a resident professor at Ljubljana Faculty of Arts whilst not even representing said sate university and turning up in his office once in a blue moon

I long for the day we've done away with """free""" higher education, the moment his kind will find themselves unemployable and eventually homeless

Machines are expensive and in order to recreate the same quality of service you need extremely specialized equipment
A fast food machine isn't feasible to the extent that it would replace a team of six employees because technology hasn't caught up to the point where sustaining the robot instead of paying employees is cheap enough or efficient enough

She also fucked fat dudes, niggers, and did vomit porn.

Her videos are incredibly hard to find, though.

She's a leaf.

because business expenses increase, which leads to less people hiring which leads to more unemployment. Your ideologies are nice, but they need to be pragmatic. You can say "lets end all suffering and violence" but what's your strategy to implement it?

>Machines are expensive and in order to recreate the same quality of service you need extremely specialized equipment
once the costs of having min wage plebs outpace the costs of having machines replace them, it'll be a no brainer

as soon as this happens, there will be loads of machines on the market and the industry will enjoy great economy of scale, making them ever more cheaper

just like we survived the agricultural, industrial and information revolutions, so shall we survive the unemployability of the majority, the only question is whether it'll take violence to do so

The only reasons things like raising wages don't work is because the white collar workers, owners and CEOs, refuse to make less money that they already do

You might be thinking "what about the small business owners, you know, the little guy", but the notion isn't really for small business owners because they wouldn't even employ that many people in the first place to make up a significant wage difference

You're right in saying that we can't just fix things by saying "let's fix them", but the wage increase is just one reform that should help the poor be richer and stop the really really rich people from keeping all of the money that the lower poorer classes of people work for

>once the costs of having min wage plebs outpace the costs of having machines replace them, it'll be a no brainer
>as soon as this happens
You mean in 300+ years
Sure, you might have a point then

K I K I
I
K
I

I don't know about the bestiality stuff
But a quick google search showed me basically most of the stuff you're talking about

who is this high test goddess?

if you're implying how long it took us to reach this point since the industrial revolution, I'm afraid the historical progress isn't quite so linear; when I look back at the world I was growing up in the 80s and compare it to today's world, I can tell you that things have significantly changed and this pace of change has rapidly accelerated - for better or worse but it is what it is, you better adapt or you'll be left behind

Technically, rising prices IS inflation, or at least a part of it.
Increasing money supply is a mechanism by which inflation happens. Inflation itself is actually the rising prices of goods and services relative to the stagnant or depreciating value of the currency used to purchase those goods or services, which theoretically could happen without an increase in supply of money.

I'm sure you're talking about Moore's law where technology increases nearly exponentially, but I'll tell you that there really won't be any automated food services on a huge scale in the next couple of centuries
But just because technology keeps improving doesn't mean it will improve at an amazing rate
You have too much faith in the idea of technology being really really great in the future when that's just the idea and not the reality

Really, your guess is just as good as mine, but it's just not realistic to assume that we're going to have amazing technology that does amazing things simply because our current tech is so different from that of a few years ago

If you're going to use the idea that technology improves to the point where each generation is unrecognizable to each other, but it's not the first time people have assumed that technology will be amazing simply because it's the future
Look at how people viewed the 21st century, people assumed there'd be flying cars, Autonomous Artificial Intelligence, fission power would be powering all our cities, all within the first few decades of the newest century
But they were all wrong, and I'm pretty sure you're wrong too
Your evidence is simply "I can't believe all this stuff exists so obviously cool stuff will exist in the future too", which isn't wrong, it's just not accurate

neoliberalism is the religion of the insulated elite.

The example he proposed is the declining value of an object relative to the value of currency. It's not very far off from deflation in terms of its effect, but deflation would be the rising value of currency relative to most if not all goods and services.

I feel like the difference between his example and inflation is like the difference between why people don't pay top dollar for 10 year old cars versus how much that 10 year old car would be worth if you bought it new and adjusted for inflation

>money
that's a misnomer user, think of the vast majority of """money""" supply as credit or debt, not money

that's part of it but there are many more facets to this matter, not merely what our tech is capable of by itself but the combined effect of various developments

for example: a car manufacturing plant in my cunt that has existed for a pretty long time nowadays employs maybe a 1/10th of the original workforce while its outputs are reaching record numbers many times greater than ever thought possible before, all made possible as a culmination of IT, robotics, process management, production techniques, lean supply chains, innovative quality assurance, better communications etc

while the example above is pretty narrow in its application I can picture the same happening in traditionally human-dependent industries as soon as the conditions become suitable and economically viable to do so

Supply and demand.
With higher wages, greater supply of X will be afforded and bought. As supply goes down because more people are buying, demand goes up. This creates more job oppertunities to keep up with demand, and pushes innovation for better products.

This is basic economics

>I can picture the same happening in traditionally human-dependent industries as soon as the conditions become suitable and economically viable to do so
And I'm not saying that won't happen
I'm saying it won't happen as soon as you think

I'm sure efficiency has improved with the increase in technological capability
But you're actually positing that there would be a smaller, fully automated similar version, of that gigantic production plant in multiple locations that simply suit whatever the customer specifically needs at that time
And sure, the size of a computer has become smaller and smaller every year
But, the size of your production plant is still very much the same size
The size of the plants where McDonald's food is assembled is very much the same size
Sure it takes less people to work it, but it wouldn't be decreasing in size any time soon because it's most efficient at this size

When a car production plant can be an 1/100th of the size and still have the same rate of production, then I'll believe that automated fast food will be a thing soon

>semantics
Not an argument. "Money" "Currency" or whatever you want to call it, doesn't necessarily refer to physical green-backs.

I think a lot of people forget, or don't think about enough, the word "value", what it means and how it's determined. A lot of economics deals with this idea of "value" without understanding what value really is.
All value really is, is how much you want something, how much something is worth to YOU - not "you" an abstract concept, but you the individual. Together, we form a collective of wants/needs, that adjusts value.
Have you ever heard about the sort of experiments where they crowd-source the answer, like the amount of jelly-beans in a jar, or the weight of an object. Amazingly, given a large enough sample size of people, the average of the numbers they give out narrow down to a surprisingly accurate result. This is how prices are set in reality (in a free market of course).
When you're thinking about economics, it's important to keep the fundamental ideas in your mind. Everyone always sites supply/demand, but forgets about value and how it is determined mostly through supply/demand, but not entirely. When you talk about Inflation/Deflation, you're addressing the value of things in relation to other things, usually in that case the value of currency relative to other things.

Basic economics also determines that price controls don't work, and a minimum wage is a price control on the value of labor. You consider the possible positive outcomes of a higher minimum wage, without considering the negatives.

A person who's labor is not worth the minimum wage will go without a job. Small businesses that cannot afford the price of labor needed to sustain themselves will disappear. Also remember that increased demand and reduced supply not only stimulates production, but also rising prices, which could in some ways off-set the increase in wages, while further hurting those who might have had a job otherwise.

Furthermore, "we" are not going to let these jobless people starve and die, and so the Government (read: you and me, Joe tax-payer) will pick up the tab for those who cannot provide for themselves in the form of various subsidies and welfare... effectively redistributing wealth in an ultimately unproductive way, that reduces value output of the economy overall.

I'm not merely talking just efficiency because the current plant when compared to its original predecessor could be thought of as 1/10th or less of the size when current volumes and the bigger variety of products made are taken into account

previously there were discrete sheet metal press facilities and dedicated production lines for a single product, if you wanted to introduce additional products, you had to effectively double the actual infrastructure; nowadays there are alternating tooling in sheet metal presses or employing outsourced procurement of semi-finished components being put together on common production lines without the producer having to invest heavily into the infrastructure

this prevented the return on investment from moving far into the future while effectively doubling the total cost of ownership, making the entire thing that much more attractive for the company to invest in and making it that much better for the consumers presented with more choices, product lifecycles have become shorter and new ones are being developed way faster than before

it's inevitable, I'm not predicting when it might happen across the board but it will definitely not take centuries to get there

let's switch to the transportation industry and the significant amount of workers it employs worldwide, vast majority of them will find themselves redundant pretty soon because of driverless vehicles; how they will be dealt with will probably pave the way for other people currently working in other industries expecting massive layoffs, I'm guessing there will be some kind of UBI or a whole another kind of economic system will have to replace what we have today

commercial vehicles are being replaced in relatively short intervals (5 years for trucks is the avg in my cunt), therefore it will take max 5 years to do away with drivers after the technology has matured sufficiently, now that's a pretty rapid change, wouldn't you agree?

If people could think for themselves, or at least be more open minded, money wouldn't be an absolute necessary object of survival. It's come to that because people are too involved to want to come up with an alternative, or even try. Money is an idea, but people are so sold on it that they miss that part. The power of ideas is so greatly ignored that it's no wonder why there has always been a division of classes in civilization. People who know how to work strong and influential ideas are the ruling class. People who choose not to think for themselves, or just lack vision, are the ones who get ruled.

It's a rat race perpetuated by igNOREance and in-crowd style peer pressure. "If you don't like it then get out" - says the ignorant insecure in-crowd. The way we think and act around money is a symptom of a bigger issue. Lack of self awareness, and lack of attempt imo

>refuse to make less money that they already do
why should they settle for less? No one butts into your personal business and tells you how to run everything, why should it be any different for a business where the difference between life and death is pennies?

Also your idea about helping to poor is fallacious because the poor are looking for jobs, jobs which will become harder to get once the minimum wage increases.