Switzerland to hold referendum over universal basic income

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36443512

What thinketh you of this Sup Forums?
What startles me is the money on offer here. That's a monthly salary for a lot of people, not just a few quid guaranteed a month for every person in the land.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=H5IG2n_Sox8
youtube.com/watch?v=s_4J4uor3JE
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_initiative_(Switzerland)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsgemeinde
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

Yes to a basic income.
Yes to shutting the borders entirely, otherwise it simply won't work.

>2.5k $ basic income
>inb4 Bernie says America should also do this when it goes through

Basic income isn't that hard to do in a country that small and homogeneous.

They are just trying to introduce the idea/concept for now. That's all there is to it.
Most referendums here are a way for political parties to abuse the democratic instruments of the people to impose their ideals as if they are supported by the populace.

Honestly, i think a basic income with other benefit programs removed will work. People with money will either invest or spend it. making business better. Those with less money will of course use it to have an easier life which means spending it. Gotta keep that money local and flowing.

Will work in switzerland because they have a homogenous nation

Sooo... Switzerland will become the new migrant haven now? Gotta get them juicy gibsmedats.

communism returns in switzerland

>t. commie economist
No, it wouldn't, especially not in diverse countries.
You lower the stimulus to work and the stimulus for contributors and lower the general wealth like a downward spiral. You cannot base a system on non-contributors - never ever.

>Lets remove all incentive to work if you're okay with a living wage, and piss off everyone that doesn't

wow what could possibly go wrong

>Labour is being automated...
>SO GIB GIB GIB!

>implying this will get accepted
we are not commies

They've done this before no?

What's your alternative?

agree.

hat nicht direkt was mit dem bedingungslosen Grundeinkommen zu tun, dennoch sehr interessant
youtube.com/watch?v=H5IG2n_Sox8

>>What's your alternative?

You could be left without a means of survival once automation takes over.

It may work in Switzerland of all places, but it's a horrible idea nonetheless.

It's a bit early but I think it'll be a necessity in 40 years time

We already are

We have never been communists, we build 1000's of km of bunkers in the alps to eventualy stop the communists.

I hope it won't pass by a margin soooo high nobody will try it again for 100 years.

But the leftists are sneaky, they present it like a minimum salary (like the SMIC in France), and the tv speaks like it's a minimum salary.
In fact it's an amount of money you are given if you don't make it by other means, it's a catastrophe because a lot of people are making less than 4k a month and a 2.8k guaranteed revenue is a no-brainer, you just stop working.
I mean, if I made 3.5k a month by working 45h per week and 4 weeks of vacation per year I'd just take the 2.8k for doing nothing, use our free universities to get a good major and come back when I can have a 10k salary. The issue with that is, we can't all be touching ourselves in the third sector, we need low qualif jobs, and a lot of people would just do nothing and drink/smoke instead of working...

A literal welfare state

You don't stop drop and roll before you catch fire, moron. If/When automation reaches that point we can start discussing ways to compensate for the lack of menial labor, right now we should focus on maximizing employment.

Could work with white people and maybe east asians but not with the rest of the world

>nobody goes to work because they still get money
>economy gets fucked over due to lack of workers
>continuing to pay basic income leads to poverty

how to ruin your country in a decade

Won't prices increase by giving everyone a 'basic income'?

Automatization and digitalization of western economies will decrease the amount of jobs available for the vast majority. Japan has understood this for a long time and this is why they are extremely anti-immigration since they don't see the need to import massive amounts of cheap labor and social problems with them just to become unemployed in the near future.

America and Europe on the other hand are near sighted on this issue. Partly or rather mostly because our economists and politicians aren't very bright tech-wise.

Productive people will go to work who will have a choice of legit motivated people who want to do shit.

Productivity will go through the roof if we are finally able to get rid of all the bullshit jobs

this or atleast letting people in for there profession

>Switzerland will become the new migrant haven now?

I highly doubt migrants will be entitled to it.

More likely migrants will have to work for very low wages and pay shitloads of taxes to fund the program.

This desu. And deport all non-whites

>focus on maximizing employment.

No, around 5% unemployment is optimal.

UBC will be inevitable once automation becomes large enough but introducing it now wouldn't work unless you plan on some heavy duty automation in the future

>initiate basic income for all citizens
>all non-citizens must work, if not are forced to work or exiled
>non-citizens can become citizens after 25 years
>non-citizens children are classed as half-citizens and must also work but only half the time

Basically create a system that enables immigration which actually benefits the current population.

>shutting the borders entirely, otherwise it simply won't work.

Just don't give basic income to illegals.

They will find it extremely hard surviving in a country where everybody around them has basic income.

Illegal wants to work for $3 an hour?
Someone with basic income can worth for $2 an hour because his rent is already payed.

Exactly. There's no incentive to work. Workers will look to their countrymen and see they're making the same amount in wages as they would working for over half a month, and wonder: 'Why even work?'

Honestly, the rest of a typical workers wages can be earned with MARGINALLY less work doing menial shit online for payment.

>BUT IF THERE'S A UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME THEN NOBODY WILL WANT TO WORK
WOW IT'S ALMOST AS IF A LABOUR SHORTAGE WILL DRIVE PRICE UP UNTIL SUPPLY AND DEMAND EQUILIBRATE AGAIN

ROUTINE MARKET ADJUSTMENTS THAT HAPPEN EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY ARE L I T E R A L L Y THE END OF LIFE ON EARTH AS WE KNOW IT.

>non-citizens can become citizens after 25 years

WHYYYYYYYYYYYY??????????

>this thread again

you need 100k signatures to get a referendum in Switzerland
NO important party is supporting the basic income, it's going to fail with

Yes it is. Switzerland is already the most expensive country on earth and with basic income everything's going to get even more expensive. What's going to happen is that all the mountain Jews are going to take their monthly allowance and move to a cheaper country. It's going to be a huge money drain. Basic income is built on the idea that people are going to spend their money in their own country to stimulate the economy.

Speaking of referendum, what are you guy's though on the new law on asylum seekers?

I can't quite figure out if it'll lead to more or less "refugees"

NEIN

Imagine how many drug addicts and lazy neets are going to have free money? What the fuck do they spend their cash on? Drugs, fast food, and ugly slovenian women on chaturbate.

The only immediate return the local people would see is on fast food purchases. But by and large, most of that profit goes to corporate, which subsequently gets spread out amongst executives and shareholders.

The average person has proven time and time again, that they have an incredibly high bias towards frivolous spending. They don't make sound/prudent investments.

Why is it basketball americans are willing to spend gross amounts of money on running shoes, yet rarely, if ever invest in purchasing books. You know, books. Something that they can read, which subsequently makes them smarter, which then they start making better life choices, leading to better employment and an overall improvement in their quality of life.

So it's basically just a petition the government gets to veto but has to bring up.

Haven't heard of this, got any more details?

It's a bandaid to try and fix a looming problem with capitalist economies: All the money is sequestering in the hands of corporations, banks, etc. and the average person is getting less and less, and when the average person has little money to spend, they don't spend it on much.

In other words, the west is in a longstanding recession/depression with the root cause being stagnation of the economy because money isn't actually moving around, it's just being captured at the top.

Basic Income takes more money via taxes from the rich and corporations due to:
A. Extremely high income (corporations)
B. Progressive taxation (rich people)

While the unwashed masses largely have low income and lower taxation, and thus benefit more from the government GBI.

Part of the reason this is becoming necessary is simply due to the decoupling of human labour requirements involved in production. Within the century we will have production chains with virtually no human input whatsoever. That'll dramatically reduce costs on production to basically nothing, but creates a problem where the working class have to work to survive, but there is no work to actually be done.

A basic income would solve this situation and establish an economy where resource allocation is determined by the public at large, while changing day to day life very little.

Perhaps there are other solutions to the problem. The one I most often see shouted around here is, "kill all the unemployed". I'm sure that'll work out beautifully and won't result in the destruction of civil society as we know it nor cause any sort of serious strife or civil war.

Let us have a look

I can't wait for UBI... I hate work.

>Imagine how many drug addicts and lazy neets are going to have free money?
They already get it via traditional welfare. Nothing changes to them while the rest of the country gets lower administrative costs.

half of them already live outside of the country as is.

this is going to destroy their country.

good riddance. let europe and america burn, and let the boomers who destryed the world die the most painful death possible

>What startles me is the money on offer here.

Switzerland is relatively expensive to live in by PPP, that money isn't as much as you'd think.

Also I would love it.

>Perhaps there are other solutions to the problem. The one I most often see shouted around here is, "kill all the unemployed". I'm sure that'll work out beautifully and won't result in the destruction of civil society as we know it nor cause any sort of serious strife or civil war.

youtube.com/watch?v=s_4J4uor3JE

They will all spend their money here. Most are doing this already since they pay the halfth.

People will work because they will want to consume more.

By reforming low-skilled McJobs into flexible-marketed temp jobs, people content largely to live on basic income can work a few hours a week at McDonalds to supplement their BI when they want to buy 3 new MacBooks. Given there's already a labour surplus, without factoring skill, this isn't going to lead to a labour crisis in the unskilled sector. Immigrants are the primary concern.

On a similar note. Given that a huge amount of manual labor is set to obsolete within a few years, what will Europe do with its masses of uneducated, unemployed and unskilled refugees who can't find work?

A FUCKING LEAF

The whole point of basic income is to give money to people who aren't working.

The fundamental assumption is that they aren't working because automation has put them out of a job - and for the most part this is actually true, and becoming more true as time goes on.

This is a good point. With a basic income we can actually remove minimum wages, which would allow the average citizen to compete for work at prices that illegals simply cannot match. It should actually help put an end to the mass immigration we're experiencing, as the illegals and immigrants are a net drain on economies and the corporations can still get their 'slave' labour at cheap prices.

It would have to be combined with extremely tight corporate taxation laws so they can't just offshore all their money, though. Since corporations will end up footing most of the bill for the guaranteed basic income.

Sort of a backdoor way to get corporations to pay fair wages.

interracial breeding grounds

no it's a constitutional amendment but

i) 50% of the overall people need to approve

ii) in at least 50% of the cantons (((states))) the local populace needs to approve by 50% or higher each.

although we get to vote on these "initiatives" about four times a year, the people are generally extremely sceptical. all in all, less than twenty amendments have been successfull since the 1890ies

Ohh, so tolerant.

A lot of hot, steamy, interracial sex

Hi Trudeau, you sure seem to know a lot about economy. Welcome to Sup Forums

BI distorts pricing signals. there's no more natural growth of the money supply, so consumptive sectors are lockd in a zero sum game for revenue with medical, techn, etc.

it WILL destroy society. anyone good enough at math can see that.

europe has deindustrialized. the first dark factories are in china and japan. they lack the capital base to build industrial machines with 10 year profit horizons. europew on't automate. they'll go into debt, and collapse.

they don't have adequate central planning mechanisms capable of budgeting.

marxist bullshit, will never work

spotted the NEET faggot

not an arguement

spotted the sinai insurgency

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_initiative_(Switzerland)
>The federal popular initiative (German: Eidgenössische Volksinitiative, French: Initiative populaire fédérale, Italian: Iniziativa popolare federale) is an instrument of direct democracy in Switzerland. It allows citizens to propose changes to the Swiss Federal Constitution. A votation will be organised for every modification that collected 100,000 valid signatures in 18 months.
They have real democracy

>BI distorts pricing signals. there's no more natural growth of the money supply
Because printing out money whenever you need a stimulus and painting over the cracks later is so natural, right?

There's a good reason we crash out the economy every decade.

And with BI people will start buying shit, and we might even have a return to the old renaissance style neet philopsper thing. Once we cull the weak, anyway.

see
Basic income can never ever work under any circumstances. I can refute every argument you try to make. So far you've made none.

I hope thye vote yes jsut so i can enjoy watching the flood of immigrants move from calais to their border.

>Basic income can never ever work under any circumstances.
BI is equivalent to tax breaks for companies, but for the unemployed.

Go.

A shortage of overpriced labor will increase its demand as much as a shortage of steamy turds.

Companies will just go bankrupt

Direct Democracy is the purest form of Democracy.
It's also fucking stupid and why they have specifics programs based around it rather than it as a whole.

No it's not, it's not even close. wtf are you talking about?

UBI works, but you have to control immigration first or you will become insolvent.

>but the companies can just live off from basic income
:^)

Socialism is 100% fine: but ONLY in racially/culturally homogeneous countries.

I feel like it should have a name, though. Some sort of...socialist nationalism?

It just means prices will increase because businesses know everyone has x amount of money as a baseline. Certainly the local economics will adapt to the new situation. And you will still need to work if you want any nice things aside from the basic stuff that everyone has.

qe also distorts pricing, but most of the money still ends up going to semi-productive industry in some capacity or another.

BI does two things wrong:
1. no consumption floor
2. no savings
3. productive investment can't be derived from above savings because citizens spend ALL money, and ALL their money comes from tax revenue. it's central allocation
4. distributive power of currency doesn't belong to those with market information (e.g. knowledge of productive industry
5. ZERO SUM MONEY SUPPLY: kim kardashian implants will make more money than cancer research. that's bad

if you don't recognize the problems with all this then so be it. but BI is retarded, and you are retarded, and should at least have the modesty to recognize you don't understand this, and step down

>why they have specifics programs based around it rather than it as a whole.
A couple of the smallest Cantons don't even have a parliament/congress equivalent.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsgemeinde
>Eligible citizens of the Canton or district meet on a certain day in the open air to decide on a specific issues. Voting is accomplished by those in favor of a motion raising their hands

>Population = 8.081 million x $2,554
= $247,666,488,000(USD) a year..
>GDP = 685.4 billion USD

How is this sustainable? Where is that money coming from and if no one is obliged to work.. what happens when everyone stops working? Surely it will collapse.

I'm having trouble thinking of a worse possible system.

they've survived by sheer luck

Basic income is not the same as national socialism. In national socialism, first of all, you're free from the Jewish banking parasites. You have a currency that's backed by labor and the only way to get your neetbux is to do some labor.

In Switzerland they empty truckloads of gold coins onto the pavement so that people can roll around in it like a ballpit. The eternal mountainjew will find a way!

>what happens when everyone stops working
Won't happen.

How can they be so civilized and together so as to make that wor-

>Over 88% White

ah.

That reminds me of the Paddy's cash episode of its always sunny, I think they kept calling it a self sustaining economy

Germany's economy was successful because they kicked the jews out and switched to international barter, it had little to do with their currency.

>will become the first country to hold a referendum on basic income

That's like the third time we're holding a referendum on this.

Who will work in the sewers in a country with with basic income?

Okay, your refutation was no.

Not an argument.

Companies can avoid paying taxes.

Allowing normal people a windfall is the same thing except they should spend in the same country, driving up demand.

I don't see how it could even work at that high of a basic income, they will have to spend over 250 billion USD on the program and their national GDP is less than 500 billion USD, you would basically have to nationalize all industries and go full gommunist to pay for it

Are you talking about that Jewish Friedman crap? Negative income tax?

In Glarus and Appenzell where this happens it's almost certainly 100% white.

It seems to work on a small scale and the people want to keep it.

German migrants

What bullshit.

it will NEVER EVER get through.
it's not meant to either, this is simply a way of introducing the concept to the general populace.

what i dont get is who will pay for it? You need tax payers to pay for it and for that you need workers. With this youll have no workers, why would anyone get up to scrub toilets when they get this? why would i catch the train at 6am and freeze my arse off like i do currently when i can just collect this, play videogames and smoke weed all day?

Someone please explain this to a dumbcunt like myself

Make Switzerland Habsburg again

And how are goods produced if not by labor?

Germany's economy was backed by labor and our economy is backed by parasitism

>swiss
>standard German

you're not too smart, aren't you, Bernd?

It's a stupid idea really, and mathematically impossible if you give the citizens any sort of substantial payment.