How can one respond to this problem?

How can one respond to this problem?

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Kill yourself and see what happens

freewill

No, cuz this is all there is.

>Implying god and satan are not the same entity
>implying what happens to you are just natural processes of the body of the great entity, as all actions and things interact to form a continuous body more complex than our own
fucking catch up guys

Find something to do. Get a hobby. Get a kite.

Removing evil wouldn't necessarily be the good thing to do for humanity to evolve. Maybe god wants humanity to find their own way to remove evil and truly see evil for what it is.
Like a father raising his son, you don't just remove everything bad, you let your son learn to deal with the problems, so he can grow into an adult.

And you said it in your problem yourself, god is "thought" to have these attributes, so even if they aren't all true, there might still be a god.

kite is evil

Fathers only leave bad things in their kids' lives because they have no other choice, the world is full of horrible things so might as well get used to it

God didn't have to make ANYTHING horrible, he chose to and chose to create a planet full of lab rats so he could watch them suffer and only talk to the mentally disturbed

Torture, rape, disease, disfigurements. If there is a God, it is evil beyond all comprehension.

Easy. God is not omni-benevolent, omnipotent, or omniscient. Only need one of those not to be true for it not to apply

good cant exist without evil

You can try to exploit some logical fallacy if you try hard enough.
Point is: God does not exist so why do so?

How do you know god could've created the world without evil? Or maybe evil is needed for free will, which separates humans from being just mindless robots. There is alot of evil, but humanity as a whole is moving more towards good over time. Maybe god could create us perfect, but what good would we be then. Maybe the only true good humanity is one that has overcome evil without a gods help.

Well, there are a couple ways to look at this. My favorites are either that there are a number of lesser, competing gods with their own areas of interest and influence (and they're dicks sometimes), that god is not conscious in the traditional sense, and is incapable of making rational decisions, creating and destroying seemingly at random wherever it intersects our reality, that the concept of god is absurd and that any human theorizing on the subject is baseless speculation warped through a lens of mundane concerns (either simple survival or more complex concepts like politics and society) and anthropomorphism. Alternatively, all of this could be moot because I am the only party of concern in this simulated instance of reality, the sole victim of the basilisk.

The inexistence of deities is a problem only for those indoctrinated to exalt them.

Do you even live on planet earth?

>Evil and suffering *do* exist
Prove evil exists.

>Maybe god could create us perfect, but what good would we be then.
We would be very good, we would be perfect even.

But that is if we assume that a god can only exist if it's all three at once. Why couldn't an omniscient and omnipotent god exist without being omni-benevolent?

Or what if a god created all life with completely free will and let them live however and only pass judgement after they pass on?

Or why do we even assume that an almighty and all-knowing being would think the way we do, that it would percieve everything the way we do. Whether something is "bad" or "good" is a human concept, why would a god need to consider them like we do?

The picture is completely correct, but it also only presents one single option. Drawing a conclusion from just that is foolish.

So human society is progressing towards a higher moral ideal? That's not how I see it, especially since the start of the 20th century.

I've never heard the phrase "omni-benevolent" before in my life. And I literally was forced to study the Bible backwards and forwards every day of my life for the first 15 years of it. Where did you get the idea that people think God is "omni-benevolent"? Is that something that Catholics teach? Because that's not in the Bible.

Ehh, idk, we got better than like 2000 years ago. I'm not really a god believer, but ops argument for no god is retarded. Just saying possible reasons for why god wouldn't create us perfect

>How do you know god could've created the world without evil?

I can think it. Therefore, if I was *actually* omnipotent, I could do it.
I can't, so it follows I'm not omnipotent. Either god is not omnipotent either (that he can't do *everything* he can think), or he doesn't want to, or there's no such thing as a god.

youtu.be/KV68EGgh238
Thank me L8r nerd

This chart is proof that atheists don't know God. Light can't exist without shadow, and freewill cannot exist without evil. Freewill boils down to two choices: good ones and bad ones. If there were no suffering or challenge in life, then freewill would be non existent. We'd be robots on a pre programmed track.

The rise of authoritarianism in the 20th century is morally preferable to the Greek city-states or the stabilizing quasi democracy of the Roman empire? That Stalin is a step forward from societies like the old Chinese dynasties? That's a tough claim, my dude. Technology has advanced. Humans are at least as morally bankrupt as ever, and I claim that as technology has provided us more insulation from the interpersonal consequences of our actions, traditional morality has and will continue to decline.

But when you die you have no memory of what your life was, and you wont know youre dead

what a fedora, I have truly see the light thanks OP
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You've been visited by le fedora of euphoria!

You're understanding of evil and actual evil are very different things.
A child would view their parents as evil for making them eat vegetables.
You are the child in this metaphor.

Have you ever played a video game on the hardest setting? Have you ever played a stealth game and, while you can kill npcs, you choose to ghost it instead to make it more challenging?

What if this "life" is our soul experiencing something challenging? And you can choose how to play. Some people want to play blind, or deaf. Or Suffer something horrible, just to experience it?

If we do possess eternal souls, isn't 80 years of pain nothing in comparison? A blip of a memory that helps to shape you.

I'm not saying I agree with this. I'm just saying that I'm not ruling out the possibility.

God is not conscious.....

I think of God as the laws of physics. Yes, the laws of physics created the universe and all beings in it. Such a God (the laws of physics) is omnipotent and omnipresent. Yet such a God has no special interest in humans per se and is not benevolent per se: the laws of physics can create a planet and then kill everything on the planet with a meteor, and has no special feeling about the planet or its destruction.

...

Were it so that the fall of Adam did not happen, man could not know joy for they knew no sin. To k ow light, there must be shadow and on. This life is preparation for next and to gain knowledge

But you don't damn your child and every one of their descendants to a life of suffering and pain and death because they ate a tempting apple before they understood the difference between right and wrong. That's pathological.

Go to a truley haunted place and FEEL for yourself

>But that is if we assume that a god can only exist if it's all three at once. Why couldn't an omniscient and omnipotent god exist without being omni-benevolent?
Those three characteristics are what describes a classical understanding of God. What you describe isn't God, but something else entirely.
>Or why do we even assume that an almighty and all-knowing being would think the way we do, that it would percieve everything the way we do. Whether something is "bad" or "good" is a human concept, why would a god need to consider them like we do?
If he is good, then he made man to think good is good and evil is evil.

god works in mysterious ways

You cannot just have a child who knows how to do calculus. Knowledge takes time.

rekt. This is the only correct answer.

If you had complete control over the arrangement of neurons in the child's brain, you could configure them so that it knew calculus. Humans can't do it yet, but we're not talking about the limits of human ability.

Only a benevolent god would need to have atonement for all of his children. He is also the most just. He would not do anything that would go against the law. Even if he did, he could not be god

That is untrue. Light can, in fact, exist without a shadow. Even if it couldn't, there can be less suffering than there is right now. So you could still have created a better world than the one we have right now, which an all-good creator would have done. Which we, humans, are trying to do all the time.

>be me
>be born into a poor family in some shithole a 100 years ago
>starve to death before reaching two years of age
>THANKS GOD, WHAT A FUCKING GREAT CHALLANGE M8
>10/10 would live again

the phrase "all-loving" or "pure love" are more common... in Hebrew it more directly translates to unquenchable light with the connotation that light is nurturing and therefore God gives us what we need.
People have already suggested that perhaps humans need evil in order to fulfill some greater purpose, so I'll not delve too deep on that, although it is a sound first argument.
Multiple people have posited that, "maybe God isn't one of those three things.".... but that fundamentally misunderstands the argument.. the logic is: Given that God is these three things-> there is no God..

In order to disprove that logic, you would have to find a flaw in ANY of the three predicate clauses, but I'll do you one better....


1- "omni-benevolent" is here defined to include "want to remove evil and suffering," but as I mentioned at the top benevolent or loving or sustaining does not necessarily include personal desire... "want" does not factor into benevolence... First clause [If benevolent->Want to remove evil]..... DISPROVED


2-[Omniscient->know how to remove evil]..... this one is simple. If one is all-knowing they only know what can be known... if there doesn't exist a way to remove evil and suffering an omniscient being would KNOW that there isn't a way to remove it... Omniscient =/= Omnipotent... all-knowing doesn't mean able to know how to do the impossible.... my new supposition [if it is possible to remove evil an omniscient being would know how to do it] but that doesn't include cases where it is impossible...... DISPROVED


3- This is where it gets interesting, because in a different argument this is the only one that actually matters... in order to have the most interesting and productive argument we must define "omnipotent" as capable of accomplishing any conceivable task.. after-all this is not "very-potent"..... to address this clause specifically.... yup... this stands up omnipotent== able to remove evil.

This! God is the universe. It is an entity beyond comprehension. How can smelly monkeys like us be arrogant enough to think they know all the answers? One day we will all be judged. If you fail you will be reborn into this world until your spirit can cross to the next test god has for you. You clearly have no spiritual growth and will be stuck on this planet for even longer until you finally wake up. I feel sorry for you honestly.

Thus implies you have knowledge of good and evil. Acts we consider evil may be part of a broader plan for good or may be good in and of themselves. For instance, if the ultimate goal of our universe is to produce the coolest possible weapon for a video game he is developing, God would want his simulated animals to have a mean streak. This is one of a nearly infinite number of explanations since we can't know the true nature and purpose of our universe (if such a thing even exists)

Yes you do, you remeber your earth life perfectly. And at judgment, your entire prearth life is revealed

Well, at least this pretentious douche will be off to another plane of existence to ruin the party for everybody there instead.

Questions the human capacity for understanding the nature of the universe/the Divine

Immediately contradicts that claiming to know of divine retribution and cyclic rebirth. Enjoy your gnosticism, hippy.

>the law has no interest in humans

So... let's move on to the real argument... the most interesting disproof of this bad logic...
Omnipotent == able to do any conceivable thing..... == Omnipotent God could create many different worlds.
---> I am capable of conceiving of a world where this logic puzzle is accurate and true and that therefore there is no God.


----> However I am also capable of conceiving of a world where this logic puzzle is bunk... and meaningless towards any God.


----> Furthermore I am capable of conceiving of a world where there is a logic puzzle that directly and accurately proves there is a God.
Therefore:

Omnipotence ----> God simultaneously exists and doesn't exist at their own will

It isn't omnipotent any more than any of it's constituent parts. Prove otherwise.

It is unjust to charge the crimes of one man to another Inocent one

Actually scrap that. Prove your claim that the "laws of physics" are omnipotent

The sons of man and woman ARE that man and woman.

No?

What do you think the scriptures are for?
in Tron, clue destroyed the system because he had no application. He had the knowledge of what to do but not the “how” of using it.

I don't think that really is the classical understanding, people typically refer to superhuman beings as gods. In all kinds of religions throughout history there were tons of gods that lacked one or more of the three. Sometimes they weren't even any of them.

And humans evolved over the ages, they weren't created as they are now. A god would've merely created the world and maybe influence it's flow in certain ways. As such, we came to determine "good" and "bad" ourselves. The god in question may be much like what we call good and just, but it wouldn't necessarily fall entirely under our definition of benevolent.

How is it light then?
How can you know of colors if all you see is gray?

I have a question about free will. Does having free will prevent god from knowing what choices we are going to make? If so then he cannot be all knowing and if not then why doesn't he give humans a little nudge in the right direction so that minor evil and sufferings exist (e.g. a stubbed toe) but nothing major.

Not existing is a form of suicide.
Suicide is against the law.
He cannot break the law.
Thus he will always live

I need more depth to clearly see
Expound my good sir

How can the same logical equation lead to different results? Please describe to me the world that you are conceiving. Can you also maybe conceive a world where a != a?

God knows all the possibilities and CAN plan accourdingly.
(It’s kind of like Garnets’ future vision)

Lets think of it this way. Seeing as how you type stuff out here, you can see. Now, if you were to be blinded, you would cease to see. Same could be done about evil.

Or, perhaps, it is more akin to the light we cannot see. We know that light that we see comes in different colors. But we also know that there is light that our eyes cannot see. Still, it is out there and we can detect it using other means. We can also imagine it being there, using the colors that we know of.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_theism

Freewill theodicy.

How can freewill exist if God is omniscient? While creating a human, he'd know exactly what situations his creation would face, and how the human would reaction to them.

It always depends on both, your definition of God and your definition of good and evil. God is defined differently in every religion, and even in that religion every person will have their own definition of God. Good and Evil are different in every society, and even in society every person will have a different definition of good and evil.

I stand corrected.

In that case though such a god would indeed be a paradox, given what we see in real life. So OP's argument is solved.

CS Lewis covered most of the arguments in The Problem of Pain. it's not lock tight, but pretty good.

You're forgetting free will. To just make us all be nice to each other would just make us a unified mass and remove all humanity. What would be the point if he just forced us to never be evil? You make no sense.

Christian's concept of god is flawed, I doubt any person truly knows what the divine entity wants for us. Who are you to say a higher power doesn't exist?

What about car crashes? AIDS? Cancer? Starvation? Those have nothing to do with free will, but all of those are without a doubt evil. How come these things still happen if God is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent?

You think there is free will in heaven?

...

Greek and rome was both societies completely driven by slaves, most old empires where. And the democracy you speak of was the few who where high standing deciding. I do think our society, even Stalins society is better than slave empires.

Checked
>this may interest you

God's first iteration of the world was good without evil, and man fucked it up because free will.

What is flawed in OP's childish diagram is that it is based on a linear understanding of time. Time is not linear. Time dilation exists - this isn't up for debate.

free will and omniscience can exist simultaneously because time is not linear.

what if god don't want to remove evil because he wants humans to recognize and remove evil?

god is a observer and judge, not a superhero.

it literally says this in the Bible. Even our most elaborate understanding of god is nothing close to the reality of god.

>the bible

OP:
>i don't believe in god and i *hate* him. (foot stomp)

>who. the fuck are those!!!?

u wot

Thought Wicca was older for some reason.

but it never said he will, he's just able to

He already knows the future though, every decision we will make has already been made in his eyes so there is no point in tests.

Whadda cunt

sounds like you might be making things up, how do you know this is true? we need to write this down and sell books!

kek

the problem with this is that we can define good and evil only by human standards. maybe what we think is bad is actually good by god standards? maybe this is the perfect world god wanted to create but we lack the knowledge of a almighty deity to recognize it. maybe everything follows a greater path we are not able to understand so we call it evil because we just don't know better.

What’s evil? A spiders not evil, even if it bites and kills a child. Only humans can be ‘evil’ and god already punished humans who do evil, by sending them to hell. Just because you cant see it happening doesn’t prove your point.

A person wrote the bible, so it’s more then Lilly any mistakes or contridictions are human error or misunderstanding

Well, he's not purely benevolent from every viewpoint. Mankind is being punished by him, though supposedly for its betterment.
It's like beating an unruly child.
Is this evil?

It assumes God's true intentions, which are not known.

It's possible :
- God doesn't care
- God is chaotic neutral and uses a pre-existing evil to make himself look good
- God makes both good and evil acts to entertain himself
- etc.

You do realize that, A god didn't create evil. That got started cause Lucifer was jealous dad brought a new baby home. B he has a plan it's called judgement day when the world ends. Now not saying you have to believe I'm a firm believer in free will but I mean it's the best solution I have to your equation

Answer me these questions using the bible:

>What must you do to be saved

>Do Christians need to obey old testament laws

>HOW MANY GODS ARE THERE

>Is death final

Why doesn't god get rid of the evil if it was unwanted in the first place, he could, he is god.

false
many different persons from different times wrote the bible.

Dat new testament holy shit