Why are Russians scared shitless about a defense treaty that simply stipulates that if any member is attacked...

Why are Russians scared shitless about a defense treaty that simply stipulates that if any member is attacked, all members have to come to their defense?

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nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm?#cl101
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_sovereignty_referendum,_1991
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_1994
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Berezovsky
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919–24)
youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo
aillarionov.livejournal.com/649571.html#cutid1
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

Quality memeballl muh'nonymous

Why are amerijews encircling russia?

Go look up "World War 1"

NATO is not secret, and won't lead to another WWI scenario. Everybody knows who is in NATO.

Why shouldn't we encircle the only relevant country in the world that is willing to invade a country just because of muh feels. (See Crimea)

Also we would only be the bad guys in the eyes of the far right of NATO countries, and Putin cock suckers in Russia. And a few other countries mainly China, Syria, North Korea. History would remember us as the good guys.

Also the claim that the U.S. is trying to scare Russia with NATO is bullshit. Don't fall for Russian propaganda.

nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm?#cl101

>History would remember us as the good guys.
lol

no

As if America doesn't use propaganda as well. Look at the bullshit about Trump and Russia, and how ebil Russia is trying destablize America.

We just don't want to be ethnically ce\leansed. Your government has a bad reputation about genocide and racist things are still widely allowed in media. Also tons of anti-Russian propaganda that didn't end with the Cold War. So we are kind of worried. "What is on their minds?" "Why do they demonize us so?" The actions of our current government is a separate case though.

You think somebody would remember you as a good guy? Ever? Don't make me laugh.

Every country on the planet uses propaganda lad

>your country has a bad reputation about genocide
And your country has a bad reputation of mass murder.

Also don't pretend anti-American propaganda ended with the Cold War in Russia.

Bruh, even without collusion, it's pretty clear Russia tried to destabilize America.

They were good guys during WW2, fighting the Nazis, then become villains again afterwards, during Cold War.

Russia is a natural villain.

>invade a country just because of muh feels
Are you retarded?

>And your country has a bad reputation of mass murder.
No, it doesn't. Nobody conquered by us was mass-murdered.

>Also don't pretend anti-American propaganda ended with the Cold War in Russia.
What?

This, the only argument against it is they have no reason to do it. But realistically destabilizing the U.S. is the only way Russia could become a great power again.

>what is Poland
>what is Hungary
>what is the Holomodor

And for the anti-American prop. just look at any state-run Russian news outlet. It's almost all anti-american bullshit.

Katyn
Holodomor

I guess those Ukrainians just starved themselves, it had nothing to do with Russia.

>(See Crimea)
Crimea was originally Russian, has Russian people who had a referendum where huge majority of them voted that they want to leave Ukraine and join Russia (because of what happened in Kiev at that time). You're completely missing the key details.

>Why do they demonize us so?

Because you haven't changed a bit.

Well, Crimea always wanted back to Russia. Surveys showed around 80% pro. Of course, you should only support separatism and violation of our rights.

>Nobody conquered by us was mass-murdered.

what the fuck

Crimea was always Russian (after Stalin deported all those non Russians).

That's literally a muh feels argument for invading someone. There are proper ways to go about separating from country and dumbass ways. You chose the dumbass way.

If Ukraine refused to give a region of their sovereign territory independence, it is NOT Russia's problem. That is where you were in the wrong.

Am I right in my assessment that basically any opposition party that isn't the communist party has no hope of winning elections in Russia because they've all been demonized as American puppets working against Russia? What would it take for Russians to turn against Putin?

>Crimea was always Russian

you're wrong there, Crimea was Ukranian from 1954 until 2014

No conquest and holodomor was in all European part of Russia.

Yes, they did it to themselves like other poor people who reported their more rich neighbours. After the rich were robbed, they couldn't hire poor anymore, so everyone died.

Well, it is an old custom to give couquered nations right n shiet if they bow to some current ideology as Christianity, Socialism or... whatever we have now.

It was before. Tatars were deported because they supported Hitler. People weren't happy under Stalin, you know. Before that Russians were moved from there because Tatars tried to genocide them.

>There are proper ways to go about separating from country
Same way like you separate Kosovo from Serbia?

> There are proper ways to go about separating from country
They had many referendums before ignored by Kiev. Then Kiev changed Crimean constitution and abolished position of president of Crimea because he was separatist.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_sovereignty_referendum,_1991
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_1994

>You chose the dumbass way.
100% agree.

>opposition
>communist
Lel. They do what they're told to do.
>What would it take for Russians to turn against Putin?
A proper party to support. More awareness about people's strength. Guarantees that the new government won't ruin it even worse.

Russians were a majority in Crimea since 19th century.

I'm not saying that was a proper way. If it was then Kosovo would be a recognized country currently.

I know they did that. But just because the Ukrainian government refused to recognize it, does not give Russia the right to invade and annex them.

What is "a proper way" in that case?

>does not give the right to invade
It's funny when american says that.

A referendum. It's always the proper case. If that doesn't work then Civil War. But in the modern world a referendum should work, but some countries it doesn't. Any country that gets involved in a foreign countries civil war, unless it directly affects the country, is in the wrong, especially if they annex the country afterwords.

You do realize I'm not trying to suggest America hasn't done a lot of bad shit. Right?

Regional-wide referendums are banned by Ukrainian law.
And they had a referendum.
There were no war in Crimea.
> involved in a foreign countries civil war
Almost in any civil war in history there were other countries involved one way or another.

>A referendum
there was a referendum, he literally just told you

Economical domination that leads to cultural until it is too late.

Yeah, you assholes helped the North win the American Civil War

It's a myth. Our ships just passed by.

Geopolitics mainly.

Russia always wants to push and control further West to protect Russias heartland (Moscow) or risk perishing. Because on average, Russia gets attacked on or from the Great European plain once every 33 years. Hence why the Soviet Union was exclusively states west of Russia and the caucuses.

But with NATO, the US have effectively "contained" Russia to it's pre-soviet borders when it was vulnerable. Coupled with the fact that Russia has lacks warm water ports, and the 2 warm water ports they do have, have to travel through straits controlled by NATO forces, Russia is basically the most vulnerable in its history.

> it's pre-soviet borders

Because NATO outclasses them in every single way and Russia doesn't know how to build alliances without putting countries at gun point.

They're scared

Well they wouldn't have to worry about NATO closing off access to their warm water ports if they weren't violent shitheads that opposed the west for no reason.

>Americans will defend this.

their government for whatever reason wants to have free reign to squeeze its neighbors

>have to travel through straits controlled by NATO forces, Russia is basically the most vulnerable in its history.

Good.

>Well they wouldn't have to worry about NATO

idk, probably WWI and WWII

They're not scared of NATO. They have nukes. They're untouchable. They're scared that because Ukraine is so similar to Russia if Ukraine's desire to become a successful Western nation works out Russians will wanna have the same. They invaded Ukraine because they're scared of a Maidan on the Red Square.

Well, the 17th century is still technically pre-soviet.

It all comes down to Putin and his advisers. Putin believes the collapse of the USSR was one of the major geopolitical disasters of the century and a good chunk of his advisers are cold war veterans who due to the collapse of the USSR, calculate on potential, not promises. All in all, it's a very paranoid cold war way of thinking.

>They were good guys during WW2
lol no, they were the bad guys, too. They invaded Poland together with the Nazis. They just happened to be invaded by other bad guys. That doesn't make them good.

A bunch of saudies fly planes to buildings.

OMIGOSH we are under attack from Afganistan, NATO assemble ! What do you mean, we are attacking the wrong country ? We have a DEFENCIVE pact, so we must bomb the shit out of the middle east to serve our interests and you whiners must follow the DEFENCE treaty, because we say so.


NATO is a USA feel good club for not wanting to look like murderous psychopath it is

and arguably Russia understands that

so they know even if you stage the first attack or do so under a false flag, the rest of us NATO sheeple will follow you to nuke hellfire

>Crimea was originally Russian
Nope. All kinds of people settled in Crimea throughout the ages. Just because the Russians were the last invaders doesn't make their claim more valid.

>has Russian people who had a referendum where huge majority of them voted that they want to leave Ukraine and join Russia
There are no free elections or referenda under a military occupation. In Ukraine's independe referendum in 1991 all of Ukraine, including Crimea voted in favor of independence.

>Crimea always wanted back to Russia. Surveys showed around 80% pro.
see

NATO was used in Afghanistan, not in Iraq. NATO was not used to retaliate against the wrong country. The coalition in Iraq was not NATO, it was a coalition set up at that time for the purpose of the Iraq War.

And what's that > military occupation
Nice meme. Most soldiers were locals. And 80% of local Ukrainian soldiers switched sides and got Russian citizenshop. Including commander of their navy
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Berezovsky

1. We always need some buffer zone (see: all wars for past thousand years)
2. It's part of the Great Game (chess between West and Russia), and extending NATO is considered as a threat for us
3. Our puppet-state wasn't stable, so Putin was forced to act tactically - take Crimea

There is no real opposition in Russia because they're too fragmented, which is of course the result of actions of Russian secret services. The East German Stasi called these methods Zersetzung:
>The goal of Zersetzung is the fragmentation, paralysis, disorganization, and isolation of the hostile and negative forces, in order to preventatively impede the hostile and negative activities, to largely restrict, or to totally avert them, and if applicable to prepare the ground for a political and ideological reestablishment.
>For the Zersetzung of groups, it infiltrated them with unofficial collaborators, sometimes minors.[46] The work of opposition groups was hindered by permanent counter-propositions and discord on the part of unofficial collaborators when making decisions.[47] To sow mistrust within the group, the Stasi made believe that certain members were unofficial collaborators; moreover by spreading rumors and manipulated photos,[48] the Stasi feigned indiscretions with unofficial collaborators, or placed members of targeted groups in administrative posts to make believe that this was a reward for the activity of an unofficial collaborator.[31] They even aroused suspicions regarding certain members of the group by assigning privileges, such as housing or a personal car.[31] Moreover, the imprisonment of only certain members of the group gave birth to suspicions.[47]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung

So basically by covert operatios the FSB turned the Russian opposition into a People's Front of Judea.

>We have a DEFENCIVE pact, so we must bomb the shit out of the middle east to serve our interests and you whiners must follow the DEFENCE treaty, because we say so.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what a defensive pact is, helping your allies militarily. Not helping your allies in that case would entirely undermine the reason for having a defensive pact in the first place. Your country may as well be completely on its own when it gets invaded by angry Russians, just like Ukraine.

Poles killed more
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919–24)

>Just because the Russians were the last invaders doesn't make their claim more valid.
It does if you follow the law or something like that.

Based Poles.

>No conquest and holodomor was in all European part of Russia.
While it is true that Ukraine wasn't the only region suffering hunger and starvation, it's a scientifically proven fact that the Russian government deliberately channeled it to Ukraine.

If Serbia hadn't sperged out - with your backing of course - it would have been a proper separation. After all the Yugoslav constitution granted its regions the right to secession expressis verbis.

Yet everyone goes "MUH KATÝN ,MUH COMMIE KILLS" and no one speaks about that.Polish government even protested the construction of memorial for people who died in their concentration camps

daily reminder that it was America which started the Cuban (Turkey) crysis in 1961 and almost dragged the whole world into a nuclear war

The Russian soul is inherently corrupted and evil, Poles we're just the first to recognize that and acted appropriately.

You sound like a fucking mobster.

Nah, I'm just trying to egg on Russians and Putin fellators from the west.

Well, you're not doing a very good job.

youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo

t. channel 1

at first you placed some deadly rockets in our backyard then Soviets paid you with the same coin you started crying and playing victim "AGGRESSORS!! RED SCAAAAARE" kek.

go and check, interesting read

We know the Russian tactic of handing out passports to build a claim from Georgia. That doesn't make that claim valid.

By appearing like a fool?

as I recall it was in response to some titanic tank battalions that the USSR, and not russia, had placed at the throat of free europe

now, to take nukes and put them in our hemisphere, that's a great big no fuckin no

Crimea is not Russian land.
aillarionov.livejournal.com/649571.html#cutid1

russia is a poor corrupted shithole with no future and no chance for improvements.
just let it fall and then you americans should take control of the central and north-western parts of the country just to be sure something like the ussr or russia in its current state won't happen again

de-facto it is. but after americans come to liberate us from tyranny it will be given back to hohols and finally peace would be achieved.

You have nukes. Nobody can liberate you except your own populace. It'll be like the last time a slow decline until collapse.
Or maybe the Chinese overtake Siberia and this will trigger something which leads to the eventual liberation of Crimea.

Because Russian politics revolves around perceptions of strength and the resentment in the populace at Russia no longer being a superpower. For politicians to maintain their grasp on the population on the back of this rhetoric, they must at least give the appearance of trying to reclaim those glory days.

This was actually a really interesting talk. Thank you for posting it.

Not sure what do you mean and why you're telling it to me.

Holy shit, you're right, OP! We put our country so close to NATO borders, we must want war!

Then start to read.

Why would I read some retarded blog? If you can't express your opinion, don't even start talking.

People are just afraid you will bomb us like Serbia and Iraq

All this your rhetoric like ITT for example just scare russians. They see you totally missunderstand their views on the world and pose a huge thread for them.

Have you beem to Crimea? Have talked to crimeans? No? Fuck off

>the nations we border join a defensive pact to support one another if we invade them again
>they are warmongers

fucking russia :'D

Imagine if Mexico or Canada tried to join military block with Russia or idk China.
What would be your reaction?
You almost started ww3 because of some stupid missile on Cuba.

You genocided serbs although they didn't invade any NATO country

we don't ever give them reason to do so, also your country disputes with canada over the arctic, among other things
so, really, I couldn't care less

And unlike you in Crimea not a single man was killed in "bloody occupation aggainst the will of crimeans"

Who are you quoting?

>Why would I read
To learn what I mean. After all you said:
>Not sure what do you mean

Do facts scare you?

Glorious liberation and freedom of lands with our ethnic people in them was will of people, *wink wink* ;D

Glory to Arstotzka

I've seen the post. It is irrelevant to our conversation.

NATO was created exclusively to destroy my country, why should I trust it after it invaded Serbia, Lybia and Iraq