For me, Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time but he never played against a team on the same level as the current Warriors in the Conference/NBA finals.
4 fucking all stars. Two of them being Curry and Durant, two of the greatest players of the 21st century
LeBron can only do so much.
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>muh MJ v. Lebron media narrative
the game are shit.
so, who cares?
All 4 of these players metrics wise are rated higher than anyone LeBron has, and kyrie Irving is fucking Andre Igudola-tier because his defense is dreadful.
>Lebron can only do so much
While I do agree I will also add that Lebron started the whole "super team" trend so he's just dealing with the mess he made.
Klay doesn't play on an all star level right now, he plays against 3
Problem is they're a well oiled machine
duh it's LeGM who handpick all his players, he should deal with it
Is Draymond even good, why the fuck do people keep adding him to the mix
He'd be garbage on any other team
>but he never played against a team on the same level as the current Warriors in the Conference/NBA finals.
Of course because the all stars back then weren't hogged and it was a toss coin on who would be in the finals, back when real superstars who carry their teams on their back existed.
Klay is playing all-star defense at the moment, though.
youtube.com
>implying
This
You can't fault Jordan for not playing against this tier of a superteam, and you also can't pretend to know what might have happened if he did.
> Lebron started the whole "super team" trend
What about KG, Ray and Pierce?
Or MJ, Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc?
Or the 2004 pistons?
Or the Kobe's Lakers?
>Is Draymond even good, why the fuck do people keep adding him to the mix
>He'd be garbage on any other team
and now we know all you know about BB is how to read the points column of a scoresheet.
Draymond is a monstrously good defender, rebounder, and passer. His scoring game is so-so, but he's basically a DPOY guy, with some top end passing skills.
>mj, pippen, rodmanand kukoc
The Bulls being a "superteam" at least had a semblance of being organic. They had Jordan, Pippen and Kukoc from the very beginning of their careers, and they won championships without Rodman. Hardly comparable to being a top scoring team and then snatching up Durant.
The 2004 Pistons are considered one of the few teams to win a ring without any major superstar though.
Klay doesn't have to play well to be a threat. It's the fact you have to account for him on offense and he's great at defense. And he will play well more often than not. It changes how a team can play defensively and what they can do offensively. And even without him, you're basically replacing him, on a 73 win team, with KD, a top 3 player. So they're even better than last season. But they do have Klay. So they're that much better. MJ never faced anyone even remotely close to a team as good as his and I'd argue this Warriors team is better
is this still somehow an argument against lebron?
Not sure how that's a response to my post considering who i was talking to
Yes he's a top 15 player in the league without argument and to me in the 6-10 range
You're right but my argument isn't so much that LeBron has shit teammates but more how good that Warriors team actually is.
That seems like a rather arbitrary distinction. It's okay when management builds a superteam but when a player helps themselves, it's not ok? Anyway MJ wasn't winning those titles without Rodman and the wons he won before it were much better than people realize. Horace Grant was top tier and they had several elite shooters to go along with MJ, Pippen and a GOAT coach.
lmao
billups, rip, sheed, ben wallace and prince were their starting 5, 5 elite players.
Building multiple rookies from scratch takes talent. Good management and player development is part of the sport.
Buying established superstars does not take any talent.
the nba was ruined the moment durant signed with the warriors.
There's a reason I didn't even bother paying attention to the nba this year, as a huge fan that had previously watched every year avidly, because there was absolutely no point watching it.
Everyone. Literally. EVERYONE. knew golden state would win the ring this year, E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E.
fucking day one durant signing everyone and their mother was like "it's over for the nba" and everyone and their mother WAS RIGHT
No point even watching anymore, golden state is too good, they were too good last year and only barely lost because lebron and refs, now they're waaaay too good and the league is ruined for it.
Somebody thought it would be a good idea to have the entire western allstar team on one team.
tanking your way to a draft pick and throwing money at players doesn't take any more talent than a player, in the abscence of decent management, taking it upon themselves to find a better situation.
besides durant left a talented roster for a more talented one. lebron left his home and a bunch of scrubs to play with his aging buddy and a guy who never won anything and some indian coach with no rotation players. that takes guts.
Jesus christ you are delusional
Even with a top pick it takes skill to find the right person and develop them. If you honestly think drafting Pippen is equivalent to buying Durant then i'm not going to bother talking to you. Enjoy your jerkoff team faggot.
no it doesn't. look at how loaded the teams are tanking are becoming. how do you think the cavs are in the position they're in right now? both the cavs and warriors tanked to multiple top picks. kyrie and wiggins turned into kyrie and love, neither possible without being one of the worst teams in the nba and a #1 pick multiple seasons. sixers did the same. lakers are doing the same. twolves did the same. building an elite team through tanking is objectively the easiest thing you can possibly do to get better which is why so many teams do it.
Ok but golden states drafting and management was so good they could sign an elite player after going 73-9 and still be middle of the pack salary wise. I don't get this whining about Durant going to golden state. Maybe the other franchises should git gud and not be such scrubs. Fucking Orlando pays more for their shitshow of literalbwho's on their roster than golden state does lol.
>. I don't get this whining about Durant going to golden state
um maybe because it ruined the league and took away all suspense since everyone knew the moment he signed that they'd win the ship? Didn't even watch this year, and I missed nothing. Golden state is here just like I and everyone else said they would be. Fucking SNORE.
> Maybe the other franchises should git gud and not be such scrubs
or maybe I'll just stop watching since there's no point in watching anymore. The league should have prevented this if they wanted to save their league, now it's ruined.
See in in 5 years after 5 golden state championships, let me know when you agree with me that they ruined the league
if curry didn't get injured this team would never have happened. stop sucking management cock. they totally lucked out with the timing of their signings and with mark jackson being a tard. curry and green would have demanded much higher contracts if not for injury and coaching incompetence. you're applauding a complete and utter fluke.
I'm not whining. GSW can do whatever they want. I just don't think it's directly comparable to call the 90s Bulls the same kind of superteam. If you're too stupid and young to recognize the differences i'm not going to spoonfeed you.
>go into this thread
>people are STILL defending golden state ruining the league by signing durant
So after they've won their 9th consecutive championship, will you finally agree they ruined the nba or will you still do this whole dance?
mj, pippen, coach jackson = 3 hofers
horace grant, possibly the most underrated player ever. bulls lost to his orlando magic in the playoffs when he left
several GOAT sharpshooters including kerr, bj armstrong, paxson and hodges
all in a transition era where all the good teams were old, injured or non existent
people who thought mj's first 3 chips were on some scrub team know nothing about basketball. they were loaded and winning against weak competition.
>comparing horace grant, kerr, armstrong, paxson, and hodges to curry, klay, green, and iggy, who are bigger, stronger, faster, ON TOP of shooting 3s just as well?
Your argument is shit and you're a shit human being for trying to pass off such a shit argument as being worth reading
I never said those old Bulls teams were better than current Memeiors but that only strengthens my argument and makes you look stupider because now you realize Bron is going against possibly the GOAT team of all time.
MJ/Pippen is better than Durant/Curry/Iggy
Grant is at least Draymond level if not better
Klay amounts to the combination of Bulls sharpshooters
coach Jackson > Kerr
I'd say there's parallel here but trying to say anybody is claiming they're better than current warriors is textbook goalpost shifting. I'm not making any such claim. I'm stating the original Bulls team was very good and played in a weak era or basketball.
This is fact. Warriors this season just might be the best team of all time.
the warriors can put a lineup out there that has 0 weaknesses.
They can put 5 guys on the floor who can ALL do each and every one of these things:
-drive to the basket and aggressively finish
-shoot the 3 ball at 40% or over
-aggressively defend, both set and in transition
-aggressively rebound and fight under the rim
-aggressively run the fast break
Every. Single. Player. When your center can handle the ball like a pointguard and score like michael jordan, and thats the fucking CENTER, you have broken the league.
When they put steph, klay, iggy, green, and durant out there, it's the greatest lineup in basketball history. Completely unbeatable.
I never, ever said the bulls weren't stacked, so your post is meaningless. Thanks for proving your lack of reading comprehension.
im not the guy you're talking to previously, i agree lebron is currently playing the greatest team of all time and it's not fair to compare since jordan never faced anything like it
Mah nigga
True as fuck
No, they definitely have weaknesses. Green and Iggy can be marginalized on the offensive end. You can lock up Durant/Curry/Klay and rotate on whatever other two are on the floor. This actually exposes the Cavs biggest weakness more than highlights any Warrior strength: no rim protector. Bron gets stretched too thin defensively to play goalie. They really needed one of those big men they signed to pay off.
Defensively is actually where the Warriors really shine. They can only momentarily try and exploit Curry.
And again, nobody anywhere is claiming the old Bulls to be better than current Warriors so this is truly a bizarre argument being made. The point is the old Bulls were very good and played weak competition and mj never beat anyone like warriors. You should brush up on your reading comprehension because you're arguing with yourself.
then you were erroneously responding to the quote chain which stems from the idea that mj did it without a superteam. those old bulls teams had an awful lot of talent, aside from the GOAT of all time.
>LeButt fans are so assblasted about the blowout that they have started sucking Oakland dick
Embarrassing.
Not lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Bryant and melo ball
No. My only point was that the Bulls built their team largely from scratch and that credit is due to their coaching and player development, as opposed to the memiors who are clearly trying to buy their way to a dynasty and become the Yankees of the NBA. The fact that you keep changing the subject back to "b-b-but the Bulls were a superteam" has nothing to do with what i'm saying.
YOU need to look back through the thread. Fag.
I don´t think they are as good as you think, San Antonio with Leonard alone probably would have steal 2 or 3 games from them and if they had something better than Aldridge and a Parker in form probably would won the conference.
How is the Warriors buying Durant any worse than the Cavs stealing Lebron from Miami?
When did i say it was?
Can anyone in this thread read?
> Bulls built their team largely from scratch
> implying tank2win is more honor worthy
you haven't made a single good argument. you just have a hard on for tank2win tactics. i find it cancerous. i'd rather a team stay competitive by signing talent than every game be against a team tanking.
> YOU need to look back through the thread
oh jeez, you think you're turning it around on me! you're retarded and can't read a basic sentence nor form cohesive argument. pls kys, sooner the better
> Green and Iggy can be marginalized on the offensive end
when a team's "weakness" is resorting to two players who would be stars in their own right on any other team, it's not really a weakness. this entire post is offensive to my faculties, so smug and yet making no worthy points and demanding that I stick to some random topic you set out in some reply chain when I'm making my own damn points and, for the 2nd time, am not the guy you were talking to, neither is this other guy responding to you either. we don't care about whatever you were talking about, your opinions are shit anyway.
Such a pathetic attempt to downplay the perfection of such a perfect lineup, this does more to piss off the guy you're arguing with than ignoring the point completely.
They're PLAY-ers, not MANAGEment. Say it with me. Players are paid to PLAY and Management is paid to MANAGE.
no green and iggy are statistically more likely to underperform on the offensive end. their strength is in defense. they both accel when you overplay. they certainly have their moments on the offensive end but you're much better off making the warriors try to pass to them in the pain and pushing those two out to perimeter shooting. these are facts really nothing to argue about. durant, curry and klay will absolutely torch you every time. green and iggy is a better bet.
>a #1 and #5 pick guarantees you a dynasty the same way buying proven talent does
Wow i can't even believe anyone is actually this dumb. I thought you might bw trolling but this is really incredible
> in the pain
*paint
buying talent has been historically hit or miss. every team throws money at top players every season and rarely make it to the finals.
facts are the two teams in the finals right now built the core of their roster through tanking for top picks. there's no brilliance in that.
this is not a weakness. They may be comparatively less effective on offense than the top 3 scorers, but they are still elite scorers that rank with the best of them. When your best bet is giving two star players open shots, that is not really a weakness at all.
You're fucking dumb, can we be done with this dumb conversation now?
draymond green is not an elite scorer and andre iguodala hasn't been one for years. it's true they're capable of producing offensively but not reliably so. they do not rank anywhere near the best of them in scoring. i'd take any decent three point shooter over either on the offensive end. their contributions are mostly defensive. green is one of the best in basketball and iggy is one of the only guys who can guard lebron. at this point i think you're just fishing for you's. nobody is this retarded
they can both shoot the 3 well enough to force defense, which is all they need to do besides defend and rebound in order to make that lineup unstoppable. Curry also cant win a jump ball, guess that's a weakness. Iggy, while still shooting at a respectable level, is comparatively less effective than the greatest 3 point shooter of all time. This makes him a weakness apparently.
Green, despite being amazing at everything AND having a respectable 3 point shot, is likewise a weakness appararently, even though he can drive hard from the triple threat position so it's totally better than having another 3 point shooter who can only shoot and so your argument is again fucking retarded.
This team is perfect and your desperate attempts to come up with "flaws" that would be go-to plays on any other team is adorable.
>h-he could shoot a little better
>h-hes not perfect he's just amazing!
sod off
Well blame Lebron for making super teams cool. Teams in Jordan's era typically had 1 or 2 all stars. Everyone else was a role player. Thanks to Lebron leaving Cleveland and joining Miami, he made it okay for stars to form super teams. Get use to it, because every star will do it within the next decade. Chris Paul will be joining the Spurs and money says some other star will probably try to latch onto the team as well.
If a gm can build a great team through the draft, how is that a knock on that team? Miami was not a team built through the draft. The Cavs aren't a team built through the draft. Oddly enough the Warriors outside of Durant are.
>it would be like Jordan in his prime leaving to join the Bad Boy Pistons
Not the same thing. And that was what Lebron and now Durant both did.
they were only able to do it through the draft because of the curry injury. They got lucky and it wasn't even planned, would have never built this team if Curry got what he deserved from the start. Our only hope is that individual greed ruins this team.
Lock is also a part of sports. Same reason how the Spurs landed Duncan.
>David Robinson gets hurt
>Wilkins gets hurt
>Spurs a constant playoff team misses playoffs
>land the top pick
Shit happens.
Bad luck also happens. Rose Bulls were proof of this.
>best record in the east over the past 6 years
>only team with a winning record against Lebron and the Heat
>Rose blows out knee
>Bulls never recovered
Luck plays a major part in sports.
So what? Are you some kind of communist?
>If a gm can build a great team through the draft, how is that a knock on that team?
Because they were only able to build through the draft by tanking to win. Building through the draft is 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000x more cancerous than signing a more good player. The entire quality of the NBA suffers from teams tanking. A superteam is totally hit or miss. Every non tanking team in the NBA signed one if not multiple top players over the past few seasons. Only two made it to the finals the past several seasons.
>they can both shoot the 3 well enough to force defense
Which is not the same as being an elite scorer. And it changes defensive strategy immensely when you have a Draymond on the perimeter instead of a Curry. You can effectively harass a lesser offensive talent with minimal exertion on the defensive end. You cannot harass or stop someone like Curry or Durant without constant dedicated defensive attention. You can easily disrupt Iggy or Dray. You cannot do the same with the other three on that team. That's a massive fucking distinction you're routinely ignoring for no apparent reason.
The difference is that Lebron engineered his himself, while the others were built by GMs
He's a great defender, rebounder, passer, with ok scoring ability. His biggest plus, though, is how flexible he is. He can guard multiple different players, he can shoot well enough to stretch the floor, and he draws enough attention in the post that he can get the ball to open shooters or backdoor cutters. He's basically perfect for the Warriors' system.
Tanking does not always guarantee you will land a stud. How many years did the Clippers suck before they got Chris Paul? 1 playoff appearance in 32 years!
Once again a good gm has to scout and evaluate talent even in the draft. Mind you the Blazers drafted Sam Bowie (had leg issues even in college) instead of Jordan.
Years later drafted Brandon Roy instead of Kevin Durant. Those two fuck ups probably costed them 2 all time greats and probably a shit load of titles.
If you don't want to watch good basketball, just because you're pretty sure of who will win, then you're not actually a fan of basketball, just of box scores. Get out.
So did Golden State other than Durant?
I'm not a fan of basketball because watching 25 point blowouts is boring and has no suspense?
fuck off retard.
>Tanking does not always guarantee you will land a stud
Landing a lottery pick drastically increases your odds of landing a stud and it's cheaper than signing a Durant.
>How many years did the Clippers suck before they got Chris Paul
And now they not only have CP3 but Griffin, Redick, Jordan and can play any form of basketball they desire with the fifth starter on the team. Bad luck with injuries is the only reason they haven't won multiple chips by now.
>Mind you the Blazers drafted Sam Bowie (had leg issues even in college) instead of Jordan
If Bowie had gotten healthy this wouldn't seem so strange but the fact this ONE INSTANCE is always pointed to is actually proof of the total opposite: landing top players with a lottery pick is more common than not. This is an exception to that rule.
>Years later drafted Brandon Roy instead of Kevin Durant
The rookie of the year that would be an all time great if not for exploding knees? lol yeah okay at worst you're talking about two great players, one a little better than the other.
Bottom line is teams wouldn't tank if it wasn't insanely effective. You're forgoing attendance and marketability for picks. Picks are literally more effective than trying to win. And then you go and praise them for losing. Fuck you're dumb.
"For me, Bill Russell, who won 2 NCAA Championships with a nothing school, an Olympic Medal, and then 11 NBA titles while playing against a giant of a man who once averaged 50 points a game and in another season led the NBA in Assists is not the GOAT..."
Stopped reading there.
Still waiting for the 76ers and Bobcats(Hornets) to be relevant. I mean how many years have they both been tanking again?....5 straight years?
>For me, Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time
>but
God these threads are fucking cancer
>Still waiting for the 76ers and Bobcats(Hornets) to be relevant
Examples of teams tanking isn't proof tanking doesn't work. Warriors and Cavs both lost their way to multiple lottery picks. Both are in the finals. Anyone who doesn't think the 76ers will be good in a season or two is retarded. Examples of teams currently tanking is proof against tanking working. Some teams take longer than others. Not an argument against tanking. If they signed a top player instead of tanking they'd just lose and not get a lottery pick. They're universally heralded as one of the smartest teams in basketball.
>already forgetting the Warriors won games 1 and 2 last year, the second game by over 30 points
Niggas...
Cavs aren't in the finals because of tanking. They are there because Lebron came back. Kyrie was winning 20 fucking games a year until Lebron returned. Also we won't even mention A thing Bennett.
>76ers will be good in a year or 2
So only took 7 years of tanking to finally git gud?
Bron doesn't even make the finals without those lottery picks. He was no lock to the finals with his old shit team. He made it two times in six seasons before they tanked to win.
7 years of tanking to get good or an eternity of having no chance of winning the finals? Tough decision to make. Not really tho.
> two times in six seasons
*7 seasons
Actually OP you forget Jordan DID play super teams, and lost.
Jordan couldn't get past 80s Celtics and Pistons. He needed Bird and Thomas to get old, Len Bias to OD and Magic to get AIDS to win.
sorry cuckland, the warriors are playing some of the most dominant basketball ever seen and it's great
Maybe if LeBeta didn't get all of his retarded friends paid, your shitty team could afford to pay a real NBA superstar instead of bargain bin Kevin Love
everyone except /nba/ and lereddit
oh and everyone else except warriors fans
It's amazing the lengths Memeiors fans go to to downplay the astronomic advantage they have over every other team in the NBA.
It's not enough to win you want to claim you're smarter than every other team from tanking while simultaneously claiming all the match ups are even and you're just better
lol nobody thinks like you retards think not even Vegas or KD himself would agree or he wouldn't leave a team that was up 3-1 for that very team.
Literally everyone in the world knew this season was a waste of time and the only way that will change is by injury or another team's ownership ponying up for a big 4 of their own.
First visit to Sup Forums? /nba/ was riding LeBum's dick all year and shitting on the "Memeiors"
If you could read I said everyone except Warriors fans, we knew we would shit all over LeBron the whole time but nobody would listen
>First visit to Sup Forums?
>/nba/ was riding LeBum's dick all year and shitting on the "Memeiors"
Christ you're the biggest newfag I've ever seen. You obviously weren't here during
>How he king with no ring?
>Not one, not two, not three, not four
>2-4 lol
This place has hated on Bron every step of the way. The first time in his entire career this shithole was forced to reckon with him was last season. The only way he can possibly not get hated on is by winning every single Finals for the rest of his career. Every loss is an opportunity for the hordes of rabid retards infesting this place to claim he's overrated. And he will lose and lose again because he's playing against the best teams in the history of basketball while not having one himself. The Cavs current team wouldn't even rank top 50 in history. Compare them to the legendary Lakers, Celtics, Spurs and this Warriors team. Fuck Memeior fans will literally do or say anything to try and sweeten their comedically ezmode victory.
Thomas was 29 when the Bulls swept his Pistons team.
Leblack fans have more excuses than the bible.
what are you talking about he performs the way he is because of how oversaturated gs is. if he was on the nets or some other bottom-barrel team hed be garnett tier.
>this place has hated on Bron every step of the way
It's hilarious to me that you're even attempting to get anyone to believe this
not an argument
That was an old ass team that beat old man Kareem and the Blazers. I'm not convinced they were all they cracked up to be to begin with. By the time the Bulls beat them, they were clearly on the decline, still good but declining. They never got through Bird's Celtics.
rewriting history whenever legod gets btfo isn't an argument
He didn't get BTFO by anyone. the only meme loss is against the Mavs who were actually an excellent team but no where near this Warriors team. Losing to the greatest teams in the history of basketball with a lesser team isn't getting BTFO and he has the greatest victory in the history of the finals.
>He'd be garbage on any other team
mavs sucked save for dirk and a halfretired kidd and won because the heat fucking choked massive cock
not him but you obviously haven't been on Sup Forums more than a year. this board was absolutely rife with anti-lebron sentiment up until the warriors became the new heel team during last year's playoff run. the shitposting after the finals loss vs. the mavericks when the spurs BTFO the broken down heat in 2014 was everywhere. hell even after his first two finals wins people were conjuring excuses.
pretty much the only time positive opinions of lebron on this board would come to light is in >lelbron threads, which were only ever popular for a year or so
kidd was old but still playing like a top tier pg. kidd, dirk, marion and chandler alone was easily equal to their big 3 and the rest of their roster was way better. heat should have won but that was an underrated team.
I never said LeBron wasn't hated, I said it's hilarious that you're trying to pretend everyone wasn't calling him LeGOAT and sucking his dick for the last year
but that's exactly what I already said. you're a newfag if you think he wasn't hated this entire time up until the finals last season. do you realize how long he has been hated on? and he's going to be hated on again and already is after this finals loss. it's pathetic. memeior fans and bron haters are the biggest cucks online.
If I said that you shouldn't have any trouble quoting me then
Show me 1 (one) post where I said that, I'm waiting
>warriors are the preds of apehoops
>4 karlssons, 4 mj's
>both are reddit
>both will lose
Its all starting to click.