Denying the Holocaust

Let's have an honest discussion thread about what points revisionists make to directly attack the findings of "mainstream" holocaust historians, Sup Forums

This means:

1) No citing book excerpts written by people that no historian takes seriously in the first place

2) No citing quotes by eye-witnesses no historian takes seriously in the first place

3) Arguing that the Nuremburg trials were "show trials" just because everybody got to speak up and there were some incredulous testimonies among the tens of thousands of papers that form its transcript (deniers cannot cite proof that the phony testimonies like electric plates and steam chambers were used to convict nazis and instead, only point out to the generic IMT statement/guideline/imperative that it doesnt forensically take apart every single thing presented as evidence before conviction)

4) Using some anti-goy quotes by Jews as proof that the holocaust did not happen (mental gymnastics required)

5) Drawing parallels to the present day situation in Israel and Palestine and trying to move the goal posts that way from the debate which is whether the Holocaust is fabricated or not

6) The "Judea declares war on Germany" economic boycott and counter-boycott by the Nazis ("Kauft nicht bei Juden") - this doesnt prove the holocaust didnt happen.

7) Bringing in Talmudic prophecy, numerology, and other religious nonsense into the debate. We're here to discuss WW2 evidence, not the contents of bronze age books.

Once you remove all this from the equation, Holocaust deniers are actually left with very few things they can bring to the table. Usually it is:

1) Auschwitz amenities (post office, theatre, swimming pool, bunny rabbit farm) as "proof" no jew was gassed [NOT AN ARGUMENT]

2) Lack of prussian blue staining

3) Gas chamber and crematory capacity

4) Crematory fuel consumption

5) Gas chambers being in visible distance from the barracks

6) No mass graves in Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, Majdanek

Other urls found in this thread:

nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html
12bytes.org/wp-content/uploads/auschwitz-gas-chamber-door.jpg
furtherglory.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/beeld-91.jpg
rt.com/news/katyn-massacre-documents-usa-816/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Höss
truedemocracyparty.net/2012/06/red-cross-expose-jewish-holocaust-hoax/
holocaustdenial.com/Zyklon_B/judicial_inc_biz/zyklon-B.html
twitter.com/AnonBabble

In b4 wheres the evidence

7) The air tight gas chamber doors as mentioned in pic above; gas chamber doors opening inward in some places;

8) Ignoring all eye-witness testimonies - saying survivors are in it for shoah-biz and nazis were tortured to extract their testimonies

9) using the fact that the only gas chamber in the Auschwitz complex today that isnt a ruin (Krema I) is a post-war replica construction (true) as proof that such a chamber never existed. We know it was an air-raid shelter before, but the deniers claim it was always an air-raid shelter while holocaust historians say it was a gas chamber before it was converted to an air-raid shelter once the birkenau complex (Auschwitz II) was created and gassings were moved there while the SS built the shelter for themselves as the former gas chamber was located close to their compound and the war turned sour

Bump for interest

I'm currently looking for it but I remember reading about a red cross investigation of all the concentration camps that put the death toll of jews and other groups at around 250,000 and mostly due to typhus and other factors thanks to Germany not being able to supply these camps.

Also the jewish population actually went UP just 4 years after they were ravaged by the holocaust in 1949 according to censuses.

Inb4 no evidence is provided as usual

10) the presence of delousing chambers to fumigate the inmate clothing. Why would a regime hellbent on the extermination of jews go to lengths as shaving the heads of jews and delousing their clothing? Fair argument.

11) Auschwitz hospital

I cant think of any other points deniers make that havent been mentioned by my in my posts before.

I suppose you can also bring in the Haavara agreement and the whole Palestine/Madagaskar issue, but I think that's that.

Burden of proof is on you, mein nigger.

It's 66 questions now, and all of them answered here:

nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html

This is an official document from the International Red Cross released in 1979 after an inquiry listing the number of deaths in each concentration camp. The number on it says 271,307, one could argue that the reat of the deaths during the holocaust weren't documented but you could also argue that that claim itself is a lie.

I personally believe the holocaust happened but it was exaggerated greatly so the jews could get their pity party and then their own country

>It's proven with immense amounts of evidence and is a scientific fact that the earth isn't flat.
>Ignore all the evidence and claim the earth is flat
>Just shout "Where is the proof" and ignore all proof.

Deniers are flat earthers.

>This is an official document from the International Red Cross
Is it? I guess you then won't have any problem showing the press release and statement the Red Cross gave when releasing this.

Or maybe, just maybe, you've found a document you don't understand and use it as you find it suiting.

The document refers to the number of REGISTERED prisoners who died in Nazi German concentration camps. The figures include both Jews and non-Jews. The vast majority of people who died at the death camps were never registered.

The ICRC states that the figures used are "the number of deaths recorded by the International Tracing Service on the basis of documents found when the camps were closed", and accordingly bear no relation to the total death tolls, since the Nazis destroyed much documentation, and that many deaths occurred in camps where prisoners were generally not registered.

The ICRC considers this misrepresentation as "propaganda", and because these claims regarding the ICRC were used for the defense of Ernst Zündel at his trial in 1985, critics state that despite the agency's attempts to demonstrate the truth, Holocaust deniers have continued to rely on ICRC based disinformation.

In 1979, the ICRC stated a second time that they have "never tried to compile statistics on the victims of the war", nor "certified the accuracy of the statistics produced by a third party", and state that the authors of such material have "falsified" both claims that the document originates from the ICRC and refers exclusively to Jews.

Let's discuss the gas chamber doors.


On one hand, Holocaust denial asserts that the doors of the "alleged gas chambers" were much too weak to withstand the pressure of people trying to escape death from inside the chambers.

On the other hand, Holocaust revisionists also make the claim that the doors of these gas chambers supposedly opened inwards, thereby resulting in a heap of corpses piled up against the door after a session of gassing, making it very hard for the nazis to open the doors and start removing the corpses.


Fact of the matter is, since none of the Kremas remained in their original state (Bunker I & II and Kremas II, III, IV and V destroyed, and Krema I modified), there is no physical
evidence as to what the doors of the gas chambers looked like. However, a door which probably belonged to an extermination gas chamber was discovered in the camp's building yard; it is massive, and reinforced with iron bars. Furthermore, the small peephole is protected from the inside with a strong metal grid, probably installed so the victims would not break the glass in the peephole to let air in and poisonous gas out.

The revisionists making the above mentioned claims often present pictures of a flimsy looking door with a broad section missing, these are actually doors for the delousing chambers,
which were not fortified. For a photograph of a door probably used in an extermination gas chamber, see Pressac (486). (Get pub/holocaust/gifs/ aukdoor.gif)

And regarding your gas chamber door, revisionist websites present this photograph as the "Auschwitz gas chamber door"

12bytes.org/wp-content/uploads/auschwitz-gas-chamber-door.jpg

in reality that is the door to the delousing chamber, which obviously wasnt needed to be reinforced.

This is the actual gas chamber door, of course you wont see pics of this in all the youtube "holohoax exposed!111"... "documentaries"...

furtherglory.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/beeld-91.jpg

>there is no physical evidence as to what the doors of the gas chambers looked like.
There is, one of the actual doors are in the Auschwitz museum on display.

Laughable.

>Goebbels' diary, for example, was barely rescued from being sold as 7,000 pages of scrap paper, but buried in the scattered manuscript were several telling entries

Of course there were. pure coincidence.

>At Auschwitz-Birkenau, ashes from cremated corpses were dumped into the rivers and swamps surrounding the camp, and used as fertilizer for nearby farmers' fields.

Of course they were, how convenient.

Plus of course mythical lamp shades and soap story. Etc. etc. etc.

Nizkor is a kike. Nothing unusual for him to lie.

But it doesn't matter in the end.

If the Holocaust didn't happen, it's should've. It's good to deny it just to piss off the kikes and their goyim slaves.

If the Holocaust did happen, even better. Although not nearly enough kikes, and other worthless shit died.

Nice copypasta, but all you're doing is raising more questions about the veracity of evidence supporting the mainstream holocaust narrative.

Very well then

I thought both historians and deniers agreed that the only intact gas chamber in the Auschwitz complex, situated in the Auschwitz I Stammlager, is "Krema I" and basically a post-war reconstruction that (deniers say) always used to be an air raid shelter and (mainstream historians say) used to be an air-raid shelter but was previously a gas chamber the way it is reconstructed today?

It's the only remaining building still standing that was used for gassing, evidence from other chambers still remain such as a door.
Documents relating to these doors, such as a work order to build them and a work order to change the hinges as they were initially installed the wrong way.

I admit, I still have to watch "One Third of the Holocaust" by a pseudonym-using denier going by the name of "denierbud" where he addresses the other extermination camps apart from Auschwitz.

I am still not very well versed in the official history of the other camps to have a basis from which I can then be able to start refuting his theories and conclusions.

Apart from that I know of the existence of "documentaries" like TGSNT and Hellstorm, the latter completely invents death tolls and the former is just a 6 hour "Hitler is good boy" presentation

That all "death camps" were located in postwar Soviet territory is highly suspicious

Soviets even altered that photograph of the guy they killed with Stalin. I think they were capable of altering the camps just enough to have the appearance of mass murder. Any normal camp would have a crematory for sanitary purposes.

Mainstream historians agree that most of the mass gassings (50k and above) all only took place in the eastern Polish camps.

Shit tons of people died in the concentation camps as well, but most did so due to mistreatment, disease, starvation and labor attrition, but they are not labeled extermination camps.

>Put the camps where the majority of the jews are
>Very suspicious
Mensa member detected

Yeah one question I still need info on, is during what year was Krema I reconstructed and under supervision of which experts.

Bump for newfags

Why would they one do the gassings there? if they were trying to max out the death toll

Number 7 is actually interesting if true

*only

Look at a map showing where the mass of the jewish population are located and combine it with a map showing the German railroad system at the time and you'll find that the locations aren't a coincidence.

These people are "taken seriously" until the Jews declare them to be "deniers," at which point everyone makes obvious, cultish protestations of rejecting the deniers, and having always known something was a little off.

Whats weird about this, is the current figure is 11 million total, 6 million of which where Jews. If the Jews wanted to inflate the figure, why add so many other non jews?

Let's discuss the crematories

The Auschwitz complex (consisting of Auschwitz I "Stammlager", Auschwitz II "Birkenau" and Auschwitz III "Monowitz) possessed the following crematory ovens:

Auschwitz I ("Stammlager") possessed three double-muffle ovens (Krema I), with a capacity of burning 340 corpses per day

Birkenau possessed five triple-muffle ovens EACH in Krema II and III, thus each of these two Kremas having a capacity of burning 1440 corpses per day

and

two eight-muffle ovens (Krema IV and V).

Hypothetically this yields a total cremation capacity of 4756 cremated corpses within 24 hours of non-stop operation, and therefore 1,7 million by theoretical operation time of 1 year.

We know each of these crematories was operational for approx. 2 years.

The company that produced the ovens, Topf & Sons, states that the ovens were designed for almost non-stop use without breaking down, and the Sonderkommando (jewish inmates) in charge of the cremation even used bellows to accelerate the cremation process by blowing extra air into the muffles.

More than one corpse could be cremated at a time, especially when it came to burning child corpses (who never passed the Selektion and were sent into the chambers directly upon arrival, remember?), ashes got mixed up, and therefore comparing modern small civilian crematory oven burning times (via websites like "how stuff works") where 1 person is cremated at a time and the ovens are cleaned after each cremation, is absolutely retarded.

Hasbara Troll is back again! He starts this same thread on an almost daily basis so he can showcase counterfeit documents and doctored evidence. if you argue with him you accept his premises and cannot win - don't get Jewed:

Hasbara Troll attributes

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>None of the "deathcamps" were "liberated" by allied soldiers.
>The SU engaged in this sort of Propaganda right up to its eventual dissolution - the Russians only recently fesses up to the Katyn Massacre cover up which they had blamed on the Nazi's.
>It's the big lie - don't try to refute something the world's most powerful nation states have dedicated massive resources to perpetuating for their own ends. The Holocaust myth still serves to effortlessly facilitate a perverse reading of 20th century written by the victors - it cannot be argued, only ignored.

rt.com/news/katyn-massacre-documents-usa-816/

>>None of the "deathcamps" were "liberated" by allied soldiers.
The Soviet Union were one of the allies.
Your ww2 history knowledge needs a boost.

>The Soviet Union were one of the allies.

Right up until the surrender and for a few months after that. But yeah, I meant Western Allies.

>Right up until the surrender and for a few months after that.
Wasn't the argument at time of liberation?
> But yeah, I meant Western Allies.
The western allies came from the west, the Soviet Union came from the east.
The camps were placed in the east because that's where the jews were.

It's a moot point, you're trying to make a case against the Holocaust because the Germans made the logical decision to place the camps nearby large jewish populations.

If they pumped it up to 11 million Jews, Hitler would have wiped out twice as many Jews as existed in his Reich.

Also, by adding in other minority groups, the Jew gets their sympathy and support. I believe the word today is "solidarity".

Source?

>It's a moot point, you're trying to make a case against the Holocaust because the Germans made the logical decision to place the camps nearby large jewish populations.

No, jews were sent to camps everywhere - a lot of jewish women, for instance were sent from Auschwits BACK into Germany to work at camps like Buchenwald. There were never any extermination camps - the Nazis treated them horribly but no worse than the Japs treated western allied POW's or Chinese ... but they did not mistreat the jews and therefore get a pass. Without the Holocaust there is no justication for the founding of Israel which is essentially a European colony in the middle ease and our "greatest ally"

The Israeli state was promised after WW1 and put on hold during the war.
>jews were sent to camps everywhere - a lot of jewish women, for instance were sent from Auschwits BACK into Germany to work at camps like Buchenwald. There were never any extermination camps -
The argument does not follow, the fact that jews were used for labour does not mean that they weren't gassed .

>The Israeli state was promised after WW1 and put on hold during the war.

OK Hasbara...tipped your hand.

But concentration camps all over Germany liberated by western allies found lots and lots of Jews living (and dying) side by side with other persons of political/racial/ethnic makeup - Dachau for instance had over 20K Jews at liberation - also had the "crematoria" which was used to incinerate the massive casualties from Typhus and starvation. There was no gassing - no need for it really, it's not that the Nazi's weren't responsible for war crimes - just not the sensationalized ones dreamed up by the propagandists to justify historical actions taken postwar and ever since.

>OK Hasbara...tipped your hand.
Balfour declaration, you need to know what you're talking about.

The rest of your text is has no substance, repeating the claim that there were no gassings over and over doesn't make it so.

>repeating the claim that there were no gassings over and over doesn't make it so

Neither does pointing to a massive propaganda campaign. Given the political tenor of the postwar world none of the "evidence" for the holocaust can be taken at face value.

>Balfour declaration, you need to know what you're talking about.

>Implying a document specifically not guaranteeing a sovereign nation state to Jews in Palestine which was signed by the foreign secretary of GB means anything to anyone or has any bearing on international law then or now... are you even trying Hasbara?

Hasbara Troll attributes

Supreme point of view
The Hasbara troll knows best
Condescending & Patronising
Socialist (Smart and 'caring')
Do not have to be Jewish but Pro-Israel
Internet experts
Narcissistic
Provocative
Dis-ruptive
Like to ask the questions, not answer questions
Control freaks
Inflamed by anyone being critical of Israel
'Moral' Guardians
Classic insults: Anti-semite, Neo- Nazi, White Supremacist, Holocaust denier
Adept with social networks well trained on IT

Troll techniques

Turn up randomly asking question about Israel, trying to engage/educate.
Guilt by association, they point to some source your are linked to as being anti-semitic or neo-nazi.
Opportunity to redeem - the offer chance to recant from your naive ways.
Smears and insults - if the top 3 fail then it's just character assassination.
Name bombing - using seo in blackhat ways to denounce and smear people. ie website with 37 mentions of someones name will prob get a Page one on Google.
Hasbara trolls generally follow the rules of social networks, because they want to continue to influence people and subvert open and free debate.

The time to burn and time to gas are not as important as the time to clear the room of bodies...

To have your ovens running even close to full capacity they have to have bodies to burn.

Take a conservative estimate of 300 people per gassing.
If you have 20 people working to clear the room in 10 teams of 2.
Each team has to remove 30 bodies. If each takes a team 1 minute to remove.
Then its minimum 30 minutes until your ready for next batch.
If its more like 2 minutes per body then its taking longer to clear the room then they say for the gassing...

Think about how long it would take to drag someone dead weight maybe 30 meters through a single shitty door. with 20 other people doing the same... ALL DAY... After the first hour there is no way your clearing the room in less than 2 hours...

If you look at their 'designs' of how it operated. The main 'gas chamber' where 3 million we're said to be gassed is below ground...
How did all the bodies get up 1 floor....
Apparently a dumb waiter, 2 bodies at a time....
Laughable...!!

HASBARA BTFO:

The phrase "national home" was intentionally used instead of "state" because of opposition to the Zionist program within the British Cabinet. The initial draft of the declaration referred to the principle "that Palestine should be reconstituted as the National Home of the Jewish people.

(((Stein))), Leonard (1961). The Balfour Declaration. New York: Simon and Schuster. p. 470.

You forgot about this.

...

They were loading people by the millions to clean their country of undesirables the same way a fox kills a rabbit. Why is it so fucking hard to understand that they did it? They had a problem they were willing to give up their future to try and fix.

No nazi's have ever denied that the holocaust didnt happen

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Höss

truedemocracyparty.net/2012/06/red-cross-expose-jewish-holocaust-hoax/

A scientific point (chemistry/physics):

Zyklon B is literally hydrogen caynide put into a carrier material, a sponge so to say for the HCN. HCN itself is liquid until it reaches 26°C, absorbed in a sponge and you´d need even higher temperatures to get it out of the sponge in sufficient amount (just like a normal sponge with water would need a very long time to get dry). And also, using pure HCN at exactly 26°C one would need actually several hours of exposure to reach a deadly amount.

So, one can find info that some delousing chambers had actually heating mechanisms which were also provided by the manufacturer of Zyklon B. Yet, the supposed gas chambers, especially at auschwitz and treblinka, never had such heating mechanisms. To make it more clear: To get a good amount of hydrogen cyanide released from the Zyklon B (and that is stays in a gas phase), one would have to heat the room up to probably way above 30°C... depending on the needed gas released to kill people in the mentionen 3-5 minutes, and considering the room size where a reported 2000 people get in at a time.... you can imagine even needing temperatures way above 30°C....

Here some info where you can see the heater in the delousing chambers and the actual size of it.... holocaustdenial.com/Zyklon_B/judicial_inc_biz/zyklon-B.html

Some info I couldn´t verify so far: Four German human subjects are voluntarily exposed to 72 times the amount Zyklon-B gas the Nazis allegedly used at Auschwitz. At 15C (59F) takes 18 hours, at 26C (79F)- 6 hours, at 30C (86F) takes 3 hours to be fatal to humans.

bump?

You realize that the gas we use in gas chambers for executions is nitrogen, and thus requires all air to be flushed out of the room, hence needing a complete seal, right? You don't need that sort of setup with a poison gas.

why use gas chambers when i could just make them dig their own graves and stab them.
Or better yet, just have an open air 'camp' where they all slowly die of exposure.

but you do need safety equipment, or your own men die whilst handling the bodies.
It's a fucking logistical headache....during a time of war?
Give me a break.

"Hydrogen cyanide was also the agent employed in judicial execution in some U.S. states, where it was produced during the execution by the action of sulfuric acid on an egg-sized mass of potassium cyanide."

who says 3 million were gassed?

The claim is 1.1 million people were killed in the entire Auschwitz-Birkenau complex, of which 900k are gassing victims and 200k died of other means.

So you are looking at 900k bodies gassed over a period of some 650 days in gas chambers I to VI

Pressac

>not thinking the temperature of a windowless room will rise of hundreds of people are packed into it and the door sealed.

1.1 million? In Auschwitz itself it currently says 1.5 million.... down from originally 4 million.

Even with your version, would nearly mean 1500 gassed a day. whew lad.

"windowless". Why did some gas chambers had windows?

Also your "will rise of hundreds of people are packed into it and the door sealed." Can be easily calculated to show that the body heat given off would not be enough to release enough gas in order to kill in the small time frame. It would still take hours, especially in from october till april you´d probably won´t heat the room at all in polands climate.

the holocaust happened, but it has been greatly exaggerated

fuck off you god damn leaf piece of shit.
The holocaust NEVER happened you delusional leftist

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