Why is it that socialism sounds great on paper but it literally has never and will never work...

Why is it that socialism sounds great on paper but it literally has never and will never work? I really don't like that it doesn't work, but there is just no example of a single time it ever has, and that really sucks. Why is socialism, and communism, initially appealing but then quickly reveals itself as a giant pile of shit? Why isn't it easier to smell? I just don't understand and it makes me sad.

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Other urls found in this thread:

haciendapub.com/articles/fidel-castros-medical-care-socialized-cuban-paradise
usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/01/09/cuba-has-lung-cancer-vaccine-many-u-s-patients-cant-get-without-breaking-law/1019093001/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–33
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

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1. because everyone wants "free shit."
2. because the "revolutionaries" don't realize they're just useful idiots

Part of it is the US intervenes anywhere it's tried. If you're a smaller/weaker country and you've got a superpower treating you like shit it won't go over well. Look at Cuba. They have a higher literacy rate than the US and have more/better educated doctors.

> more/better educated doctors

haciendapub.com/articles/fidel-castros-medical-care-socialized-cuban-paradise

Greed.

I think the nearest there has ever been to something that looked like communism working was the 1381 peasant revolt against Richard the 2nd of England.

Their demands and methods looked good on paper and seemed to be at least as functional as the aristocratic system in place at the time (which is to say not any more shit).

Sadly we will never know if it could have worked as they all got hanged (after the king had officially pardoned them because Richard the 2nd was a psychotic twat) before the cracks could start to show.

usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/01/09/cuba-has-lung-cancer-vaccine-many-u-s-patients-cant-get-without-breaking-law/1019093001/

What good is a master mechanic, if he doesn't have the tools to work?

Old thread is old as fuck

corruption

Would a capitalist society be able to exist in a majority communist world? Things don't exist in a vacuum, we can't assume communism fails because of its design when there are obvious intercontinental actors who have a strong desire to see it fail.

The US invaded Korea, Vietnam and bombed the everliving shit out of Laos because they tried to go communist.

You north americans are seriously stupid and ignorant.
How many times do you have to hear this before realizing you can still make a change for the better?
The only thing that has never worked and will never work is capitalism as it is. The economy in our world is so unbalanced that some people eat dirt from the ground, dying without having a chance to understand why they're so miserable.

Pull your heads out of your asses, you fatsos.

There are no mechanics in Cuba, only magicians.

That's actually a saying there. Made me laugh.

>capitalism has never worked and will never work, but communism would be the perfect system if capitalism wasn't so powerful that it kept interfering with communism, which is why capitalism doesn't work . . .

It's kinda like perpetual motion. It would be great if it worked. We want it to work. It would change the world if it worked. But there is an inherent flaw..... In the case of Communism, the flaw is people. It is evolution. It is learning.

If you are given what you want, you don't want to work for it. Thus, you need an "overseer" to make you contribute your fair share. And that overseer expects to be better taken care of to "get tough" on the slackers. Thus you end up with a hierarchy.

If you have what you want, you won't seek something better.... you stop competing and improving the larger society. So how do you get innovation? You need to give innovators more rewards. And those who don't innovate get jealous, and demand greater access to the "rewards".

Animals do the same. Put out bird seed until December, then stop. Dozens of birds will starve to death. They don't know how to look for food or migrate.

>fat ass north americans from burger land have to eat dirt from the ground, and not the good kind of dirt that isn't from the ground, without having a chance to understand how food stamps work

name pros and cons of capitalism

>my system doesn't work and is riddled with flaws, so I'll avoid having to defend this lost cause by making them defend their system until I find a flaw I can exploit

alright
pro: it works
con: too well

Since I shit on capitalism, I must be a communist, right?
This is the kind of binary thinking that makes your society a joke, buddy. I'm not an economist, I don't have the answers to "what would be better" but I can and will question what's established now.

Communism is just another kind of religion disguised under the facade of the state. People are not always aware of the fact that they're being exploited, but many live this delusion with happy feelings since it's for the "greater good".

What we need (as a whole) is a new system, and A LOT of people getting off their high horses. Maybe in 50 years we will stand a chance, if you can think like 21st century people.

OP, your problem is that you're asking questions like that on Sup Forums instead of reading books or looking up academic resources. furthermore, you need a deeper consideration for the terms you use and the questions you ask. what do you mean when you say socialism has never worked?

soviet communism turned russia from an agrarian feudal state into a fully industrialized world super-power who were the first to explore outer space

anarchist communism allowed the peasants of catalonia to prosper like never before (until a military defeat by the fascists during the spanish civil war).

the labour/worker's rights movement (which has historically always been the political arm of socialist philosophy) has given people the right to safe work environments, healthcare, minimum living wages, vacation time, the 40-hour work week, etc... these are victories of human dignity against the exploitation and oppression of the ownership class.

imo socialism is the only real political force that keeps us from becoming a kind of neo-feudal carceral hell-world where corporate executives act as godkings and the police/military terrorize at will.

this. not to mention all the embargoes, sanctions, etc...

I do believe that basic things like water, gas, food, apartments, simple clothes, healthcare, education etc should be absolutely free for everybody, and all you need money for is to buy some useless expensive shit like sportscar or a smartphone or a branded fancy fag clothes or whatever
And if this country or government can't give me thing like this, why should I live here? Why it's me who always should give and give and give something to this country and receive literally nothing in return?

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human nature

>Since I shit on capitalism, I must be a communist, right?
>Immediately assumes what my society is
that was quick

It's because you need to suck logs of shit out of Andy sixx's shithole

pharmaceutical research and companies are not doctors

Socialism doesn't sound great on paper... it sucks on paper and it sucks in reality

Catalán y español?
O sólo una de las dos?
No pretendo meterte en polémica, es curiosidad.

this
/thread

>Sounds great on paper

You need to read all the papers

This thread again

Victor Manuel Mieses DOB 5-4-1982 of Homestead FL stole my grandfather's identity. Almost gave him a heart attack. Victor almost killed my grandfather and all he got was a 3 month provation sentence.Take him down. Do it for the white race. Thank you I'm advance

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So you think that only rich people should be happy and have things, like your shitty capitalism says?

Well I'm human, in the heat of conversation I can get carried away and make mistakes as assumptions. You can also recognize that your argument was bullshit.

>implying implications

My great grandfather came from Ireland worked in a slaughterhouse and raised 8 children. Capitalism isn't the problem it's inflation and the elimination of the gold standard.

>sounds great on paper

No it doesn't.

Exactly! Venezuela promises to fulfill all those needs for you. You should move there or to NK which also promises to equalize everything for the citizens. We're talking communist paradise in those two nations!

Sadly, much of academia has lost their way and still believes, despite all studies and examples to the contrary, says that "communism will work!" and the problems for every failure in the past was "it wan't properly implemented!". Course, those individual academics believe THEY could properly implement it if they only had the chance.

Capitalism is the WORST form of economic organization... except for all the rest. It is like democracy is for political governmental organization.

Capitalism has highs and lows. It is not perfect by any means, but it works! Other models fail for a variety of reasons.

Now, at some point in the future when the value of labor is greatly reduced (when we have robots to do that), some alternative model for economics may work better, but we are not there yet.

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Go back to work to pay your bills and buy some new clothes you fucking nasty capitalist fag

It's not time yet, we're still about 600 years off.

Been there. Done that. Now I get a $100K pension every year and have two homes and $1 mil in stocks.

I do alright.

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It's because humans are stupid by nature and won't allow it to work since everyone wants to be better than everyone else. Greed!

politics are horrible in general

Because you can only take so much from stronger group A and give it to weajer group B before group A says fuck that noise

>socialism sounds really great on paper
no it doesn't

Because the masses are self serving?
Because the ruling classes don’t think about the individuals?
Because there’s no middle ground?

I would disagree a bit. Some people definitely want to be "better off" and they are often willing to work for it. The problem is the people that DON'T want to work for it, but think that "everyone should be equal" and thus they want the same thing that the hard workers have, but they aren't willing (or not capable) of putting in the extra talent required to justify that "equal".

Greed, to an extent, is what makes capitalism work. Some want more than others and work harder to get it. Others want something, the basics, but can't get that without some degree of effort or work, so they do the least they can that meets their basic needs, but whines if they don't have the nice car or huge home or whatever else they desire because they see others who do have it.

Communism where the government has full control of everything, people have no property and most freedoms have been stripped, and the police/military are used to terrorize at will against anyone that has a different opinion or wants freedom of speech.

wrong, there is no human nature there's human behaviour. The far left's utopia doesn't work because they believe everyone can be equal in an absolute sense. that shouldn't imply capitalism is perfect, as competitive trade isn't as productive as cooperation

Why are you so retarded and uneducated that you would equate socialism with communism?
Not only do you get to benefit from healthcare, roads and infrastructur, socialism works because stupid motherfuckers like you have been left alive instead of thrown into the pits with the rest of degenerate cunts.

/thread

the human being is greedy, any empirical data on that?

>looked like communism working was the 1381 peasant revolt against Richard the 2nd of England.
>communism was close to working half a millenia before being invented
>does not understand communism happened because of absolutism

Retards like you is what keeps the communism going.

lenin had a really freakish interpretation of marx that was rejected by virtually every marxist contemporary. When he returned to russia, realizing that his freakish version of marxism wouldn't fly, he shamelessly adopted mainstream socialist positions, then he got into power and started doing his freakish bullshit.

Seeing his success freaks started coming out of the woodwork around the globe and could point to the USSR and say 'see, this freakish bullshit works' but it didn't work and lots of people died.

Read animal farm

I don't give a shit if some fag is "better" than me or works harder or have more money, all I want is that government afford me to like just like I want to and stop tellin me that I should work all day long like anybody else. I don't want to work, I just want a simple life full of chill and happiness without some careers, big money, big cars and expensive shit like this, I don't need this, just give me $500/a week for free and I'll be happy.

Which is why everyone's conveniently leaving out Yugoslavia, because it was the only country America hasn't stuck it's paws in, except at the very bitter end where their interference caused a bloody war most of the region still didn't recover from.

>blatant black and white mentality
Fuck of, SWJ cunt

You do realize that under communism if you want everyone to be equal it won't be up to the standard of the best, it'll be at the lowest, dumbest, and laziest individual.

If I work harder than someone else, why shouldn't I make more than another person.

If I'm more intelligent than the next person and can create a product or provide a service that another person is incapable to. Why shouldn't I receive more?

Capitalism rewards the talented and hard working to push further.

Obvious troll is obvious

Why? I don't wanna be somebody, I don't wanna do something, All I want is chill everyday.

Capitalism AS IS doesn't work because the majority keeps getting convinced that rules and regulations = communism. And we all know how bad communism is, amirite? We might have a shitty exploitable system full of loopholes but we won't bother fixing anything because that would also be communism.

We're overpopulated as it is, and you are a leech on any society. Why should others who serve a role provide you The means to keep you simply existing.

Hopefully your family tree ends with you

Because humans are instinctively greedy. No matter how good equality sounds there is always the individuals who take more than their share, which quickly unravels that economic system.

Then you go ahead and do that. Just don't expect anyone to provide anything to you, because you are essentially worthless and have no value.

Why am I taking this bait

Why are we letting this Russian influence our kids and schools? If we were in Russia you'd sure as hell would have any leverage

You have a difficult century ahead of you.

Because the soft and the weak believe that every human being has value, which is simply false.

Survival of the fittest will always hold true

Don't forget that Stalin was a fucked up person that had no problems with disposing his opposition or murdering half a nation just to keep them on their knees.
But hey, let's casually pretend it happened solely because of communism and shit on the memory of poor peasants that had to die because of someone's powerplay. Some people go as far as to excuse their genocide with "but they were commies too" without realizing they had no choice.

not to forget all the socialists who were killed in the early days of the USSR because they weren't willing to accept the bolsheviks are their masters

>Marx invented the extreme concept of a society where community comes before the individual.

American education at it's finest.

Socialism and communism are a product of idealism. They assume that human nature is good and we just have to work on the setting/environment around us. If every human is equal, then it would be heaven on earth. The problem is that human nature is not good, greed exists and cynicism is more correct.

It sounds good on paper because everyone likes to hear that they are good and it's only the institutions around us that are at fault. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own vices. Capitalism is more realistic than idealistic because it assumes that people/businesses will continue to crave more and more power, and so it gives the masses freedom to decide for themselves what is best. The problem is this assumes every person is completely rational and not subject to propaganda/emotional influence, and in reality the masses are for the most part ignorant.

In my opinion the best society we could possibly have is the one that plato develops in his writings, it may not be enjoyable for everyone and we all need to sacrafice a lot of freedom but society as a whole will be at its best.

any time the government treats one person differently than another because of the group to which that person belongs, whether it's a group of rich, special-interest tax dodgers or a group of impoverished, minority job seekers, individual equality is lessened and freedom is diminished. Any time the government gives away goods and services, even if it gives them away to all people equally, individual dependence is increased and freedom is diminished. Any time the government makes rules about people's behavior when that behavior does not occasion real and provable harm to others, telling you to buckle your seat belt or forbidding you to publish pornography on the Internet, respect for the individual is reduced and freedom is diminished....P.J. O'Rourke

I'll be just fine. And when your utopian society collapses, the weak will die off as nature intended.

Yub. The bolsheviks were hella crazy assholes. The whole USSR gave communism a bad name. Don't get me wrong, I don't really advocate for communism, but I refuse to go apeshit of the mere mention of it. I find people like that highly annoying. Because they're scared of boogeymen.

You seem to be confused. The idea of favoring an individual was unheard of at that time where thinking outside of the box could get you burned at the stakes and silly shit like that.

It doesn't sound good on paper. You're public school teachers have just convinced you it does. Never take life advice from someone who wound up teaching in a public school.

This but I don't think that any human being is good enough to fill the role of "Philospher King" Also, you have the issues of royal succession. You could do it with a AI that runs on publicly available and modifiable code. I think that's our best shot. However, human beings are miserable and lazy. Even if the system could be perfect, which it couldn't, you would still have people bitching about how terrible it was.

It's a fucking analitical philosophy.
Anyone, and I mean anyone (both supporters and haters) who are taking it seriously in the 21st century deserve a swift punch in the guts.

>>The whole USSR gave communism a bad name

Which communist nation gives communism a good name?

>>boogeymen

Mass starvation in the USSR, mass starvation in China, massive human suffering in Cuba. "Boogeymen" are fake, real communists actually murder real people, in real life. When someone says "I've killed people like you in the past, and I'm coming for you in the future." You're fear is not irrational.

My family left Cuba to get away from Communism.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and the head of a Communistic dictatorship will absolutely be corrupted.
Cubans who moved to the US will always vote Republican and fight anything that resembles Communism. You fools who want that hell hole know nothing of the noose you're asking for.

greed

I know we see people being flown to Cuba all the time for cutting edge medical treatments to save their lives!
Oh my bad, that's Houston, TX

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where the US caused the Soviet famine of 1933

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–33

>So,,,He was behind of it??

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But you ignore the fact that at it's height the Communists controlled All of Eastern Europe and most of Asia. While they may not have had 50/50 parity with the capitalist part of the world, their territory was not trivial.

The US didn't invade Korea. North Korea invaded South Korea and South Korea asked the US for assistance. The same thing happened in Vietnam.

This is why we punch Nazis. We'd rather be debating, but when you tell straight up lies we have no choice but to beat your asses raw until you learn to stop telling lies.

Hide behind that computer screen and peddle your lies you absolute tool. The moment you dare try this in real life, we'll be waiting.

Pic related: You

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What is your point of falsification? In other words, what evidence would you need to see, to be convinced that Communism doesn't work?

Yugoslavia.

>Mass starvation in the USSR, mass starvation in China, massive human suffering in Cuba.
Yes, but it wasn't because they'd be trying out communism. Did you even look up holodomor and shit like that? Did you see the reasons behind that? Anyone who did understands it's not because of communism, per se. That much is a fact.

> "Boogeymen" are fake, real communists actually murder real people, in real life.
Except I'm not talking about historical regimes but modern "communists" (if such a thing even exists) and the fact that people gladly give up their rights when someone paints that as communism. Or, actually condoning these mass murders because you think every person in a communist state is a communist. Now, that's the actual boogeyman I'm talking about.

>When someone says "I've killed people like you in the past, and I'm coming for you in the future." You're fear is not irrational.
Too bad I heard the exact same words from people who have killed "communists" in the past and never from a supposed commie.

What the fuck are you talking about

Marxism-Leninism was an update on Genghis Khan's yasa and every territory ruled by one of Genghis Khan's grandchildren was never conquered by Europe, and every territory ruled by Genghis Khan's grandchildren save Iran became Marxist-Leninist.

Historically these two sets of institutions (yasa/ML and European capitalism) have been in conflict with one another, one gaining an upper hand after a period of renewal only to fall behind the other after their period of renewal.

ML was incredibly successful at turning feudal countries into nuclear space-faring countries and given the vast gap that needed to be made good in decades, can be judged a success. Right now it's European capitalism's turn to fall apart, and whatever you might WANT to happen, if you think the answer isn't going to involve socialism in some way you're nuts. When the yasa was updated they stole some of Europe's best ideas on offer to update it with; we'll likely do the same thing.

What else can be adopted in the West that will allow us to stand up to the East, save socialism? Fascism always falls apart after a few decades as the master race gets more narrowly and narrowly defined; you get killing fields instead of progress. Whereas socialism did wonders in a few decades and we'd be silly not to try to harness the upsides of that while learning from history to avoid the downsides. It probably won't be adopted wholesale anyway any more than Marxism was in the East (Leninism was the part of the ideology that unconsciously adopted the yasa) so whatever we do will be tempered by democratic elections.

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Just like there was a civil war in the Mongol Empire between upholders of the yasa like Qaidu and reformers towards bullshit like Qubilai, there was also a civil war in the Marxist-Leninist world for the same reasons. Khrushchev was the revisionist and Mao the upholder of Lenin and Stalin. It's amazing to me that most analyses of the Cold War are completely ignorant of these parallels.

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Oh God you sound like a Trot.

The USSR was a paradise lost to the revisionists, China was a paradise lost to the capitalist roaders, Cuba is a goddamn paradise and I'd move there tomorrow if they'd let me.

The Holodomor doesn't real because Stalin didn't pay the rain not to fall and the crops not to grow. He didn't even order the suppression of the kulaks, a popular movement broke out against them that he felt he needed to get behind to contain popular anger at the kulaks who burned grain during a famine rather than sell it. Gulag records show they were often released early with light punishment because Stalin needed as many hands in the fields as possible to do something about the famines, which was his first priority the whole time. But anti-communists don't read any Soviet history not written by the lying pen of Robert Conquest, so they don't know these things.

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Socialism is to communism as
Democracy is to Capitalism

they are sluts that do anal but are vegan sluts so the smell can kill you and several million people

Korea and vietnam didn't "try" to go communist. they were forced by murder squads armed with russian and chinese munitions. It was just a proxy war from the start. please, please, just quickly search what happened when politicians agreed to apease the hippy movement of the sixties and pull out of south vietnam. please research what happened to all of vietnam after the u.s. ceased intervention. tldr? 200,000 citizens were murdered by the communist government for "failure to re-educate".

this retarded

Nice b8

>Oh God you sound like a Trot.
Well, you sound like a moron because you're implying I'm saying this crap
>The USSR was a paradise lost to the revisionists, China was a paradise lost to the capitalist roaders, Cuba is a goddamn paradise and I'd move there tomorrow if they'd let me.

>The Holodomor doesn't real because Stalin didn't pay the rain not to fall and the crops not to grow.
And then you hit me with more demonstration of beinfg a complete fucking retard. It's like you're compelled to go full retard because I didn't immediately go "communism is the worst thang ever." or some stupid shit like that. Fuck off with your fallacious reasoning.