Zidane never showed anything near the display of tactical intelligence possessed by M. Laudrup, and Iniesta...

>Zidane never showed anything near the display of tactical intelligence possessed by M. Laudrup, and Iniesta. He was never the best at making key passes, organizing the midfield and was a bit of a ballhog. In 98 France, this was compensated by Deschamps who organized the midfield, and in Juve and RM, he had several other world-class players to tactically organize the game when needed, like Conte, Davids, Figo, Hierro, even compatriot Makelele. Nedved himself, brought to Juve to replace Zidane, played better for them between 2003 and 2005 than Zizou ever did. People who never watched him week after week forget that.

The fact that Zidane played with DMs isn't exactly a concrete example of any tactical ineptness on his part, since he was a classic 10. The role is kind of lost on the current generation who is used to watching teams play 4-3-3s, but to surmise, a player playing such a role in those days was actually given the task of controlling the tempo of the game and moving the ball vertically/horizontally as required, from a tactical perspective. The DMs were generally used to stop the opposition from playing by recovering balls and cycling them back to their own number 10, to start a new chain of playmaking. Hence the term 'water carrier' as used by Cantona for Deschamps.

Other urls found in this thread:

kicker.de/news/fussball/w...er-saison.html
bigsoccer.com/threads/how...#post-28566702
bigsoccer.com/threads/zinedine-zidane-review-1996-2006.2006080
reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/6j5jvg/antirevisionism_zinedine_zidane_thread/?st=J4C3YKX6&sh=ca9eb315
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

Furthermore, if Zidane was indeed so tactically limited, then I really doubt that he would be consistently asked to play such a tactically crucial role (without being dropped mind you for big games, unlike for instance Laudrup who was famously dropped for the 94CL final by a coach like Cruyff) for teams being coached by managers who are themselves considered to be very adept tacticians i.e. guys like Lippi, Ancellotti, etc. One would think, they would notice these fallacies in Zidane's game. Oh, and it isn't as if Zidane never featured in such a role in a big game, since he played as a deep lying playmaker/dm for Juventus in their demolition of Milan at the San Siro in the 96/97 season. It's just that Lippi soon figured out that Zidane was even better as a classic 10.

As for the anecdote regarding Nedved, well, when Zidane left for Real Madrid, Juventus used that money to not only buy Nedved, but Buffon and Thuram as well (so it wasn't just Nedved's effect which helped them achieve success). And even after that, they still reached only one CL final vs the two reached during Zidane's time. Domestically as well, in both their tenures Juventus have 2 Serie A titles (since the other 2 for Nedved were revoked due to Calciopoli, but then Zidane's Juventus ended up losing 2 Serie A titles i.e. in 99/00 and 00/01, in controversial circumstances on the last day of each of those two seasons as well, so it evens out).

>After his 2006 sendoff his popularity with casual and new football fans exploded, alongside thousands of youtube highlight reels showcasing his godly first touch and ball control. And this retroactively built a Zidane vs Brazilian Ronaldo manufactured rivalry, when everyone that actively watched football in the 90s knows that Ronaldo was miles above Zidane at the time, and the comparisons between them are actually between Zidane and post-injury Ronaldo.

Zidane v Ronaldo started in 97/98, wherein they competed for the Serie A and World Cup titles. Guess who won both of them, and no R9 was not injured in the Serie A that season but the next, though he did suffer from that seizure during the World Cup final. And yes, obviously the 2006 World Cup helped Zidane's popularity and his performance against Brazil was a major influence on fans watching at that time, but that was simply a result of the improbability of it, considering that a 34 year old bossed a game involving a 2 time former Ballon d'Or winner, the reigning Ballon d'Or winner and the soon to be anointed Ballon d'Or winner. So the rivalry wasn't manufactured post retirement, but was a product of the two best players of that generation being pitted against one another in two separate world cups and a league campaign.

Lastly, there was a time before Ronaldo got injured when he was absolutely unplayable and definitely and rightly considered the best player in the world, above even Zidane. But it is also true that at that time Zidane was not at his peak yet, which he reached during the 2000-2002 period. Sadly, Ronaldo was injured by then and thus a direct comparison of the players at their peaks was never made possible.

>He's often credited for the 98 WC even though he played average, was sent off in the group stage and only hit 2 headers from set pieces in the final. People are fooled by his elegant game, but older fans know that he did absolutely nothing up to the Final, and Djorkaeff was widely regarded as France's most dangerous player. In club football, he's often remembered for the volley against Leverkusen and RM highlight compilations, but what they don't show is that Zidane never, ever had a single truly proficient season where he shined throughout. On this regard, Iniesta is a much more consistent player the team can always rely on.

For a player who didn't do much in world cup 98, it surely is surprising that he was the highest rated offensive player (2nd highest overall behind Thuram) with minimum 5 games played, by kicker magazine (a relatively dependable source for NT tournament player ratings) for the 98 World Cup. Source - kicker.de/news/fussball/w...er-saison.html or that the Argentinean EL Grafico magazine considered him to be their player of the tournament. Source - bigsoccer.com/threads/how...#post-28566702

As for entire seasons where Zidane shined throughout, you can have your pick of 95/96 (33 goals+assists out of 88 goals scored by the team) , 00/01 (20 goals+assists out of 72 goals scored by the team) and 02/03 (29 goals+assists out of 141 goals scored by his team). His teams might have ended up short on trophies in those seasons, except in case of 02/03 when they won La Liga, but statistically, his impact on his team's goalscoring in those seasons is easily comparable to the consistent best that Iniesta can offer. And in case of seasons wherein Zidane played for offensively weaker teams, it actually makes his contributions more valuable to his team's fortunes.

didn't read LMAO

He's somehow credited as a "big game player" even though he only showed up for 2 finals in his whole career:
>1996 UEFA cup final - invisible, gets destroyed at home, team loses
>1997 CL final - invisible, his team loss (the same team that had won it in 1996 without him)
>1998 CL final - invisible, his team loses
>1998 WC final - clutch, scores 2 headers from set pieces after being average the entire tournament, team wins
>2000 Euro final - invisible, team wins because he's bailed out by Wiltord and Trezeguet (Zidane not involved in their goals)
>2002 CL final - clutch, team wins
>2002 CdR final - invisible, team loses
>2004 CdR final - invisible, team loses against a lower mid table side
>2006 WC final - chokes and gets sent off, team loses

All that the above list shows is that if Zidane didn't absolutely take control and win the final for his team by scoring goals, they generally lost it (apart from the Euro 00 final and even there he had better overall stats than both Henry and Totti, both of whom are considered to have had a better game than him by his detractors and were the respective motms for their teams). Which shows how the "he always played with superior teammates" argument is also a bit of a fallacy (at least for cup finals).

In any case, if you hold say Xavi to that same scale, for instance, and give him the same handicap with regards to his teammates, he would have a lot lesser volume of major trophies to show for all his brilliant play, considering that he never scored in any major final. Point is, that you have to understand that Zidane was a midfielder, and so scoring was not always possible for him. And if his teammates also did not score from the chances he provided for them, it was hardly his fault. He was definitely not "invisible" in all those games you listed, as for instance I pointed out in case of Euro 00, or as is the case for the 97 CL final wherein he hit the post and also had a pre-assist.

In addition to the above, below is a list of his indirect goal involvements in big games drawn as per the same criteria as above,
So, if you consider direct assists as per the big games that the blog is counting, he has,
1 vs Slavia Prague in the SF in E3 1996
2 vs Ajax in E1 in the SF in E1 1997
1 vs Manchester United in the SF in E1 1999
1 vs Barcelona in the SF in E1 2002
And, if you also consider pks won, pre-assists and setups, all leading to goals, he has,
1 setup vs Ajax in the SF in E1 1997
1 pre-assist vs Borussia Dortmund in the F in E1 1997
1 pk won vs Monaco in the SF in E1 1998
1 setup vs Croatia in the SF in WC 1998
1 pre-assist vs Manchester United in E1 1999

The above are from my own memory, so if you want to cross check, best to try and find the video highlights of the respective games.
In any case, the above together come to 20 goals he was a contributor to in 23 games in the Semis and Finals of the major international tournaments that he featured in. That's more than either Xavi or Iniesta and approximately close to what Messi's numbers look like, from what I recollect as having counted (cannot find the post right now), when looking at their goal involvement across a similar criteria of games.

Another little known fact: Zidane only ever gave 1 assist to Henry in their entire tenure with the France NT. And it was from a set piece. This is supposed to be the playmaker that defined a generation? No, I don't think so. He played his whole career as a bona fide #10, but he has a pitiable goal+assist/game ratio that doesn't even compare to modern #10s like James Rodríguez (ironically), De Bruyne, Fabregas and Ozil, let alone the true greats of yesteryear, like his contemporaries Nedved, Rivaldo, Del Piero, Ronaldo or Figo, who all put up far superior contributions to their teams in all of goals, assists, actual playmaking, be it from the center or from the wing.

>I rate Zidane

To put numbers to a single example, which I selected because of the similar amount of games:

>Zidane
played 231 times in 5 seasons for Real Madrid, always as an AM
scored 49 goals, including 9 in the CL/Supercup
made 51 assists, including 10 in the CL/Supercup
played 108 times for France though his career, with 31 goals (including penalties) and 29 assists

>Rivaldo
played 235 times in 5 seasons for Barcelona, as an LW (which he disliked) and as an AM
scored 130 goals, including 31 (THIRTY ONE) in the CL/Supercup
made 50 assists, including 6 in the CL/Supercup
played 79 times for Brazil, with 37 goals and 18 assists, not a penalty-taker

this is the only post i read, lmao

First of all, Zidane did not always play as an AM for RM. Especially during 03/04 and 04/05, he was mostly forced out wide (to the left), to accomodate Beckham in the center of midfield, since Figo would not relinquish his right midfield spot, even though he could play on the left side almost just as well. Rivaldo on the other hand played as a forward as well as an AM and sometimes a LW.

Secondly, he did not take all PKs and FKs for Real Madrid, or even most of them, unlike Rivaldo did for Barcelona. Figo took almost all of them, leaving a tiny amount for Zidane, thus drastically impacting his goal numbers as well as assist numbers. Also, Rivaldo did take pks for Brazil e.g., he took the regular time pks against Russia, Uruguay, Turkey and Peru (off the top of my head), so saying he was not a penalty taker for his country is quite the lie. In fact, I find it worrying that the pk point is mentioned for Zidane when he had all of 19 career PKs while it is not mentioned for Rivaldo who had 65 (both including PSOs).

Thirdly, the French NT unlike the Brazilian was not setup to score goals, but was primarily a defensive side. This hindered Zidane's goal and assist output at an NT level.
Considering the above handicaps, Zidane actually did quite well for himself in terms of the numbers he put up, especially at NT level.
Lastly, for the case with Henry, there are a few things that need to be considered,
1) Zidane did assist Henry during the Euro 00 as well, in addition to doing it in WC 06, though the first one was a goal more made by Henry dribbling than the pass from Zidane, which was routine
2) Apart from those assists though, there were a number of opportunities that Zidane provided to Henry which he couldn't capitalise on when playing for the French NT.
3) Zidane's playmaking had a pronounced indirect effect on Henry's scoring, in that it enabled the same.

This can be seen if we look at the matches played by Henry from his debut till his 85th cap (vs Italy in WC 06, when Zidane retired), and look at his gpg while playing with Zidane and without Zidane,

Games featuring both Henry & Zidane - Games 56* / Henry Goals 25 / Henry GPG 0.45
Games featuring Henry but not Zidane - Games 29 / Henry Goals 11 / Henry GPG 0.38

Considering the same numbers as above only for NT tournaments,

Games featuring both Henry & Zidane - Games 18/ Henry Goals 10/ Henry GPG 0.55
Games featuring Henry but not Zidane - Games 6 / Henry Goals 1 / Henry GPG 0.17

So during the time that Zidane was active i.e. till Henry's 85th cap, Henry had a significantly better gpg with him in the team than without him there and this was even more pronounced when playing in NT tournaments.
Thus ultimately, in case of the Zidane-Henry partnership, Zidane definitely did do enough to get more assists for Henry and was also definitely a positive influence on Henry's goalscoring, especially in major NT tournaments.

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>Yet somehow, all this highlights-based revisionism twists Zidane into somehow a better, more productive, more efficient, more legendary player than Rivaldo - a player with EIGHTY goals more than Zidane in a similar time-frame, playing in the same position. The exact same evaluation can be made for Totti (a MUCH better playmaker than Zidane ever was, whose passing, goals/assists tally and capacity to run a game at his prime were like three whole levels above Zizou's), Figo (also a much better playmaker, whose record of La Liga assists wasn't broken until Messi), Del Piero and Nedved (both better for Juve than Zidane ever was), Rui Costa (who was better in Serie A than Zidane, particularly for Fiorentina) and many, many other great, even better players who were simply marginalized by Zidane's two WC goals in the 98 Final, which FIFA and UEFA saw as an opportunity to market and big-up Zidane as some sort of Europe's answer to Ronaldo - his post-WC poster-boyism, his natural skill and elegance in ball control and his later move to the original Galacticos Madrid lending credibility to this marketing campaign. His 1998 FIFA WPOTY and Ballon D'or were based simply on that one game, completely disregarding how he was invisible during the CL Final against Real Madrid in the same year or in all the other games of that very same World Cup. Of course, statistics are not the be-all end-all, but Zidane's lack of tactical nous, famous inconsistence (as great managers have said, "inconsistence" is just a lack of tactical knowledge and application. the best tacticians are always the most consistent players) and lack of awareness for the final pass put him just way too far behind other top #10s to disregard the gap between them.

The above, as far as I can tell, is a bit of a rant with,
1) Some really odd opinions, for instance, Totti's playmaking at his prime being 3 whole levels above Zidane, is something that I am not even sure is supposed to have any meaning, since it is impossible to calculate or measure in any way; or Del Piero and Nedved both being better for Juve than Zidane, though both together couldn't achieve as much at a continental level as Zidane did with just one of them, while having a similar domestic impact.

2) Or inane stat bashing, for instance Rivaldo/Figo are mentioned to have better goal tallies and assist tallies respectively. Well that's like saying that Iniesta is a poor player because during that same era, Ozil had a better assist tally and Rooney had a better goal tally. What I'm trying to point out is that Ozil takes almost all set-pieces for his teams, and does less playmaking and more final ball passing while Rooney plays as a forward just as often as he plays as a playmaker, unlike Iniesta, which helps these players improve their stats compared to Iniesta. Just like Figo and Rivaldo could do, when compared to Zidane. In big international games wherein their teams met though, like in the WC 98 or Euro 00, it was Zidane who came out on top with some top-drawer performances. And that makes the difference between era defining players and the rest.

3) And ultimately ending with the same inconsistency related Zidane bashing that I have addressed elsewhere in this post

>Last but not least, the folks at Big Soccer have put together a very interesting compilation on Zidane's performances, trying to list all of his matches based on the ratings the press assigned to that week's game, with corresponding videos when available: bigsoccer.com/threads/zinedine-zidane-review-1996-2006.2006080 (highly recommended read).

rivaldo fanboys will never recover

This thread doesn't mean to be read, right?

I was part of this rating exercise and first of all it was only done for 2 seasons i.e. 96/97 and 97/98. Furthermore, the "ratings" used are from a couple of Italian magazines which are unduly harsh on Zidane, especially when compared to how they rated homegrown talent like Del Piero.
For more non-partisan ratings, democratically compiled by getting voted upon, ESM is a good source. ESM stands for European Sports Media and it is a forum of media outlets wherein they vote for and come out with monthy teams for club football performances. This started from 95/96 onwards. Messi and CRonaldo who are generally considered to have been very consistent, lead the pack with the most appearances for the current era, as well as overall. Guess who leads for the era during the time that Zidane played? Well overall it is Carlos who is way ahead of the pack at 34, and behind him on 2nd it is indeed Zidane with 24 appearances, who is also the offensive player (more difficult to get on the list than defensive players, for whom consistency is more easy to display) with the highest number of appearances for that era.

Furthermore, if we look at Zidane's teammates when he was playing for his strongest club teams, and compare their performances with his by looking at ESM appearances, it becomes obvious who was the most consistent out of the lot,

ESM Season XI, Zidane and Club Teammates' Comparison -

>Juventus
96-97: Del Piero(3), Deschamps(3), Fererra(3), Zidane(2), Peruzzi(2), Boksic(1), Vieri(1), Di Livio(1)
97-98: Zidane(5), Peruzzi(3), Del Piero(2), Inzaghi(1)
98-99: None
99-00: Zidane(2), Montero(2), Davids(1), Van Der Sar(1)
00-01: Zidane(2), Inzaghi(1)

>Real Madrid
01-02: Zidane(5), Carlos(4), Raul(2), Morientes(1), Hierro(1), Helguera(1), Casillas(1)
02-03: Carlos(4), Zidane(3), Ronaldo(2), Raul(2), Helguera(1)
03-04: Zidane(4), Ronaldo(3), Beckham(2), Carlos(2), Casillas(2), Salgado(1)
04-05: Ronaldo(1)
05-06: Robinho(1)

The above voted on monthly ratings thus seem to paint a different picture regarding Zidane's consistency, to the one painted by the ratings provided by a few individual publications that you have linked to above. IIRC, if you consider Xavi (a midfielder who was considered to be very consistent while also being considered to be quite brilliant) for this same metric, then at the time that he left for Qatar he had a similar number of ESM monthly appearances to Zidane's. Iniesta though has slightly lesser appearances till date, again IIRC.

>Zidane was a great player, for sure, but to put him in top 5s or top 10s in the history of football just reeks of revisionism based on idolized yet sparse highlights. Implying a player as inconsistent, ineffective, with relatively low end product and devoid of tactical finesse as Zidane is anywhere close to being a Top 10 player of all time is a crime to the history of football. In reality, he's barely top 50, if that. Platini was legitimately better, he just didn't deliver a WC - just ask older France or Juventus fans.

Le Dogue Merde

Who are you quoting?

Where one puts Zidane is as per their own preference IMO. One can always hold certain qualities above others when forming a list, and the list thus created would reflect that preference.
Zidane being barely top 50 is lol-worthy though, and simply shows how the opinion behind the entire post is probably not something to be taken seriously. After all, it takes a special kind of preference to alternative facts, to suggest that a player who was man of the match in both World Cup and Champions League finals, has won best player of the season awards in three separate leagues, player of the tournament awards for 2 separate international NT tournaments and 1 international club tournament, won the overall player of the year awards on 4 separate years from 3 separate publications, made all time Euro and World Cup teams, won player of the decade from two separate publications and made the all time best XIs for two other publications, is barely top-50. I would dearly like to see a list of 50 players who are more widely decorated, individually. I understand individual awards are out of fashion since Messi and CRonaldo started winning all of them, but the sheer breadth of awards that Zidane has won (even if he might not have the volume), shows peers and observers acknowledging him across a very wide range of tournaments, seasons. and eras. Quite the feat for a barely top-50 player.

TL;DR - Zidane is overrated by millennials who only watched youtube highlights, love how "classy" he looked and remember the header on Materazzi. People who actively followed football before and during the 90s know better.

>I rate zidane

No way I'm gonna read all of this, reddit

this the sluts thread


mods DON'T DELETE, they are both wearing sports sneakers.

Why not just post in a pastebin or directly linking to reddit you fucking retard

shit thread op
roll for waifu

>Estonia lived hell of a live in the Age of Zidane
Can't you tl;dr this shit?

>minä arvostan zidanea

some guys arguing whether zidane should be rated and how

I haven't read everything but i agree. Overrated as fuck.

Lads, how much free time to Estonians have exactly?

they're all qt models with unlimited amounts of free time

I certainly didn't read any of it lol

Imagine writing all that lads, and having not a soul read it.
Good thread OP.

coaching and tactics are insanely overrated imo

look at Zidane's 2 CL victories - all you need is to do with a squad like Madrid's is keep the egos in check and let the players do their thing

Nigga next time just post a dog with a hat saying that he rates Zidane, it will be more constructive that the pile of bullshit you'vre written here and way quicker.

Zidane was the most intelligent player of his generation.

Solid thread, people on Sup Forums have ADHD and reading is too much of an effort

good job Estonia, it's not your fault /espee/ can't handle serious discussion

>I rate Zidane

>soccer coach being tactically good

retarded idea since you can just buy all the good players

>I rank the Laudrups

>I'm still butthurt about '92

rollin

fuck off Sup Forums is not a blog

>reddit copy pasta
kys

reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/6j5jvg/antirevisionism_zinedine_zidane_thread/?st=J4C3YKX6&sh=ca9eb315

>t. Inverting the Pyramid

Fact: Zidane was a lazy bum who used his mafia connections to threaten teams into letting him play. Seeing how shiftless and uncoachable he was as a player, coaches were forced to give him a "free role" and let him run around as he pleased, while being shepherded by two responsible players who were tasked with continually cleaning up his mess. This was the birth of the 4-2-3-1 and it's entirely an accident that it turned out to be a good tactical system.

I may show signs of Autism but there's no way in hell I'm reading that

didn't read lmao

>>I rate zidane
stopped reading right there

Estonia confirmed for copy pasting shit from /r/soccer

I recognise that style of monologue;

Take your pills and go to work for gods sake Patrick

>Ich bewerte Zidane

Based Eesti who raise Sup Forums level of 33% all by himself

>knowing it's reddit copypasta
kys

If certain people studied medicine as much as they analyze the way this algerian frog kicks a ball, we'd have a cure for every kind of cancer and every STD.

Yet not for autism