Why is Sup Forums so anti-union...

Why is Sup Forums so anti-union? is there any legitimate reason for not getting together with your fellow workers and demanding more money and better conditions?

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No, that's ridiculous. Forget I said anything

Unions demand higher wages for their employees, which means higher prices.

HIGHER PRICES

Don't buy stuff then jfc.

Prices go up every year, wages don't. Who do you think is pocketing the difference?

At the expense of everyone else

Most union bosses are mafia members.

They mainly only protect the political power structure of said union. They give the scraps leftover to the workers to feel like they accomplished something. Union leaders are scum.

t. union member

Are you a time-traveler from the 70s? or just watch Fox News a lot?

actually unions are one of the only things the mafia has control over anymore

You're surely not serious?

private sector should be allowed to unionise at will, not the public sector who is paid by tax dollars
sure firefighters, policemen and teachers are necessary and should be well compensated but there are also thousands of bludging office """"workers"""" employed by the government who literally sit on their arse all day not giving two shits about anything but would jump at the chance to unionise and increase their pay

>demand higher wages
often, you will make less with a union, but you end up with more benefits.
stop talking crazy

they've been busting unions in Michigan and the prices are not dropping

the executive pay keeps going up though

go union!

> should be well compensated

How is this guaranteed without unions?

>is there any legitimate reason for not getting together with your fellow workers and demanding more money and better conditions

there is

it's called the fact that we already have worker protection laws and you can personally negotiate wages or find a different job you fucking commie

I don't mind unions on a fundamental level. They actually have quite a lot of good benefits. I'm all for people banding together to look out for the workers, protect their people from getting fired over trivial bullshit (such as posting problematic messages on their facebook pages) etc.

the problem is that they easily become corrupt self-feeding tumors.

Let's take the teacher's union for example. They constantly scream about how teachers aren't getting paid enough (which is bullshit) and how schools need more funding to bring up their test scores. This second point is bullshit, because study after study has shown that there is no correlation between school funding and academic success. We pump more money into education, and we get nothing out of it. All it does is line the teachers union's pockets. And lastly, they'll claim bullshit like "we need to havfe smaller classrooms for more individualized teaching so the students do better". This once again doesn't have any bonus in terms of education, and they only want smaller classrooms because smaller classrooms means more teachers are needed.

I guess if I had to put my foot down somewhere, I'd say that you shouldn't be allowed to have unions for public sector jobs.

Look at all the good unions did to this once great city.

Now its full of niggers that destroy whats left of the rubble.

>In a labor union
>Managers don't say anything to new employee's about it
>The older guys don't give a shit because they're all retiring this year
>Take all the new people out for lunch one day
>Explain to them that they're in a union
>Explain to them that they're basically unfireable
>Go into communist rhetoric about how they need to stay together and keep the boot of the bourgeoisie off their necks.
>Watch another batch of managers get fired because they can't control the staff.

Unionizing a resort was a horrible idea, but I'm loving every second of it.

I'm pro-union but these unions need to be held responsible when their demands are met and the industry suffers as a result. Stop bitching to the govt about everything.

unions also corrupt politics and basically only exist to further liberal agendas

If you have ever worked with incompetent union members that can never be fired you'll have your answer.

democracy, if the government is not providing adequate emergency services they would not get votes

1. Unions protect those who deserve to be fired, look at NYC teachers for proof that you can pretty much be terrible at your profession, and instead of punishment, you'll end up being paid your salary to sit in a room with other fuck-up educators for 8 hours/day doing nothing productive but still getting paid. Dig into the famous "rubber rooms" of NYC educators to find out more about this nonsense.

2. As others said, unions are primarily about protecting the union power structure. Why is it "fair" that a union boss gets paid a few hundred thousand dollars to sit in an office all day while those who do the actual work get the scraps of what the bosses negotiate?

3. Unions (primarily public sector) tend to rape the taxpayer over and over on costs. It is NOT worth paying someone far beyond their value and giving them a fat pension for life for doing a terrible job, but that's what unions do. There are bus drivers here in Wisconsin (Madison, to be precise) that are making over $100k/year DRIVING A FUCKING BUS. They're also getting pensions after a number of years that will ensure that they get that salary after retirement until the day they die. So, they're overpaid, don't need to do the best job possible, and their legacy will cost the taxpayers shitloads of money long after they've stopped contributing entirely, all because in the public sector, there's no checks and balances, typically, whatever the unions demand, the powers that be will capitulate to and give them no matter how unreasonable.

Basically, it's saying that SOME people can band together for special rights and protections that the rest aren't afforded. Now, I'm no leftists, but doesn't that whole concept fly directly in the face of leftist ideals? You be the judge, but it sure as shit seems fucking retarded from a non-union worker's perspective.

Worker protection laws are constantly eroded in right-to-work states by business lobbying government. Without unions, they would surely be eliminated entirely.

That is ridiculous, unless emergency service employees made up the entirety of the electorate.

Unions were useful 80 years ago and they fulfilled their purpose. Nowadays unions are corrupt, outdated, and obsolete. Inions are the reason shit gets made overseas or in areas that are anti-union. You think Toyota or Honda will ever build a plant in Michigan? Not a chance.

You usually make less money in unions since you have union dues, unions give certain people power, like workplace politicians, who end up being corrupt and playing favorites.

With unions you cannot get rid of bad employees, just talk to anyone in a inion, especially UAW, from my experience. Inions do not reward good work ethic or behavior and make you work as slow as the shittiest employee.

Modern unions are a cancer.

t. Someone that was in a union as a working college student and grew up around the auto industry.

There's a huge difference between public sector and private sector unions.

Private sector unions take a $12 an hour job and turn it into a $30 an hour job. The cost of this is passed on to the consumer.

On point 2, why doesn't that apply to company bosses as well? union bosses do the same sort of higher-level work.

They have things that I don't have (health insurance, paid vacation time, the ability to collectively bargain for higher wages and better treatment, sometimes even a pension). Instead of fighting to improve my own situation so that I might also have those things, I'm going to instead drag everyone else down to my level.

Can you give me an example of where that has happened?

>Worker protection laws are constantly eroded

cite an example

look at the public schools with special directors that have inflated salaries

>guise we need a new office for diversity
>oh also the wages for this director will be $300k/yr with full benefits
>budget goes to ballot
>do you want to spend more on education goyim?
>PASSED!

>private sector should be allowed to unionise at will, not the public sector who is paid by tax dollars

Public sector in the USA is pretty much ALL unionized, so guess why Americans typically fucking hate unions so much?

Private sector, if workers want to organize, all fine, but as an employer myself, I'd simply have to tell them I'm already paying them the most I can (which is true, my margins are being turned to shit, and I've taken multiple pay cuts to not have to drop hours on my staff or make any cuts to them), and if they didn't understand this fact, I'd fire them immediately for thinking they were being screwed over when in reality, they have it better than most people would give them.

There are limits to what every business can do for those who work for it. Unions typically do not concern themselves with operating costs, margins, overhead of various other expenses, etc. and see everything from a myopic "YOU OWE ME MORE BECUZ I WORK FOR YOU!" bullshit that makes them hated far and wide.

If unions hadn't overstepped their bounds so much this past century, maybe it wouldn't be this way, but they have, and that's why they're loathed by pretty much anyone who isn't a liberal or who doesn't belong to a union already.

A company boss is actively managing his business.

A union boss is just a rent-seeker. He contributes nothing of value.

RIGHT
TO
WORK

GROWING
NUMBER
OF
AT-WILL
STATES

Unions ruin job flexibility and wage flexibility. They also behave as lobbies. They pursue their particular interests. They are no more different than Bilderberg or any masonic lobby.

I'm not anti-union. I'm anti-union for people who get paid by tax dollars. Unions are necessary to secure labor rights in capitalism and part of the right to assemble.

It's especially true in Australia, dingus. Construction industry especially. Ask any builder that's had to build something larger than a house.

for private sector

look at the west coast with them all adjusting to new minimum wage hikes

they all receive wage increases to make up the difference and get cash for time spent in negotiation (almost a month's free wages)

Union boss actively manages his union including staff and usually overseeing union efforts toward negotiations.

Literally no different kek, except you morally approve of one but not the other for literally no logical reason.

Someone post the pic with the fat Union chief with the gold watches, rings and the cuban cigar

CFMEU is not a mafia, m8, they look out for their workers that is all.

Flexibility for whom? surely not the worker.

It's true. Mafia has mostly moved into white collar crime these days. Controlling the Union bosses is one of the few areas they've kept from their roots.

>growing number of at-will states

which states have changed recently?

>lets also keep ignoring all the other protection laws

Being pro union MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE. I AM PRO GROUPS OF PEOPLE HURR DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Unions are good. Do not be mad at Unions because US companies are shit and do not increase pay. Also most teachers in Indiana stopped receiving pay raises a few years ago and the whole state is unsure why there is a teacher shortage.

Unions are good but people who are not in Unions have been tricked into thinking that they are bad because the rest of society has been fucked with no pay increases for years.

Really people just hate unions because they do not understand how shitty most corporations are. I am sure the federal reserve is also to blame and the jews.

All you have to do is compare the wages across different states. Some states have a strong union presence and other are "right to work" states. Unions disrupt the natural market conditions in a fundamental way by paying workers a greater wage than the market would normally allow.

Agreed. I considered work as a union member, but mostly just because the healthcare thing was nice, as well as 401k etc. If you're a contractor type person, a steady source of healthcare is a good thing.

But as you said, they can quickly go to shit too.

Ok, buddy. As I said, ask any builder or foreman if they've ever had to produce a brown paper bag for "safety inspectors" sent on behalf of the union that threaten to close a job site based on no evidence for weeks, while they go through everything to ensure it's safe.

And? why is that a bad thing? or are you so arrogant and ignorant that you think your preferred system is the only 'correct' one?

I thought they still controlled garbage disposal

They have those because they are prohibiting you from working there because you're not kin.

what's wrong with at-will employment?

If they stop work without protection order from Fair Work, they are not protected and can be sued. The employer can also apply to have an order to resume work and fire them if they don't.

See how the facts don't tally up with your anti-union rhetoric?

Your entire knowledge of unions is based off watching The Sopranos, isn't it?

Good idea. Look at American auto industry. They are doing very well with strong unions.

>Union boss actively manages his union including staff and usually overseeing union efforts toward negotiations.

Here's the question - why does a "union boss" get to determine what's needed when he's not out on the floor doing the work to know the validity of whatever he thinks needs to be done? Why do the workers not elect one of their own as the "leader" and work together to determine their supposed needs instead of delegating it to someone who takes a ton of whatever they negotiate for and who doesn't have to do the work themselves?

Again, that's why many don't like unions. I don't want to deal with some entitled faggot who makes $150k+/year sitting in his office writing up demands to throw at employers when he contributes NOTHING of value?

At least the unionized workers are working, a union boss who is not on the line himself is human excrement who should be discarded immediately for the greater good.

KILLS THE CONTRACTOR, PROTECTS INCOMPETENT SCUM, YOU'VE NEVER HAD A REAL JOB, HAVE YOU BOY?

Lol, everything you say applies to any company boss.

The worker has the right to be represented by a union but unions must distance themselves from the socialist model of the 20th century.
They must start to behave more reasonably and listen to the executives (public or private) when cost cuts are needed and structural reforms are needed. Freezing wages and impossibility to fire are their main objectives. It's lobbying. Unions must be disbanded and new, regulated ones must be formed.

The beauty of capitalism is that it puts consumers first. Unions don't exist for the welfare of the consumer but for the producers. Putting the consumer first makes capitalism inherently difficult, but it works beautifully. Unions did great work decades ago, but since then the economy has changed. An industrial economy is much different than the service-information based economy of the modern era. Unions, at least as they are currently operating and devised, are ill equipped to benefit consumers OR producers today.

I'm anti-union because I'm in a fucking union.

>about 6% of my pay goes towards a group of shitheads whose sole purpose for existence is causing trouble every couple of years.

They've literally done nothing to help with our pay or working conditions. They don't want to have us 100% happy or have no problems because if that were to happen they'd be out of a fucking job.

The only thing I'm happy about is that they can't fire you for not going on strike with them. Best two months of my life was flipping those shit heads the bird while I scabbed my dick off making double time while they shivered in the cold for a 1% pay increase.

Fuck unions.

I hate unions because they enable the delusional notion that workers are entitled to greater compensation when productivity rises due solely to the owner's capital investment. If the productivity or profitability is not attributable to an increase in your contribution, fuck off - you don't deserve a dime of it.

Forcing employers to pay more than market price for employees results in them employing less people. Net result is unemployment for less qualified people, who are usually the groups that will be hurt the most.

Ahahahaha

It is NOT the job of workers to subsidize business losses and then sit by while executives make a lot of money during the good times, idiot.

So it is now the job of employees to literally give money from their own pocket so that their employer can take on more people? essentially you want us to put everyones wage into a communal bucket and then spread it equally to hire more people? silly goose.

>union

Unions are outdated. Yelp-like sites/platforms for profession-oriented communication are much more effective in that area.

The teachers union is concerned only about protecting teachers, no matter how shitty they may be. The union doesn't give a flying fuck about giving kids a quality education, they exist soley to cater to teachers self interests. Source: my wife is a vice principal of a public middle school

IF IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR PETE IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME

youtube.com/watch?v=9XEnTxlBuGo

if you ever tried to get a job welding/trucking basically any type of blu collar work you'd know why unions are cancerous.

>if you want to become a dock worker you need to obtain permission from me and my friends.
>we only issue a new certificate when a dock worker dies of old age, and we will issue it to his firstborn son, because that's how we choose to do things
>there are only 800 valid certificates in a country of 40 million
>each certificate holder makes 10k (USD) a month in a country where most people make 20k a year because there's so few of them and demand is so high
>if you show up at our offices and ask to take out exams we will laugh in your face and tell you to fuck off.
>if you try to learn our trades on your own and practice without our certificate, we will call the police and arrest you for Usurpation of Titles, Degrees and Honors (a federal crime on the same level as child molestation)

You do write like a middle-class socialist college student who thinks the average 'executive' makes shitloads of cash exploiting the worker.
Accountants know how to manage costs and corporate structure. Workers do not.

Work is not a right, it's a privilege. If one is disposable it's his fault.
Companies that are submissive to Unions become less competitive and eventually bankrupt because workers wanted muh privilege and muh high pay.

Forced redistribution of wealth is not a good thing. Union power comes mostly from government force and preferential treatment. Funny how antitrust law only works one way re: monopolies.

You're implying that employees are somehow deserving of that artificial extra wage that is imposed by unions.

I'm strictly talking about first-world countries, sorry Argie, no offence intended.

Unions are not necessary in a socialist nanny state. People pushing for unions generally also support more welfare and bigger government. It's redundant and kills the economy.

This. Exactly this. Private sector unions fuck with the market in a way that isn't beneficial to consumers.

>Work is not a right, it's a privilege.

This is the mentality of union-bashing rightards.

Why not? who is more deserving, the company boss? absolutely not.

You 'deserve' whatever you can achieve.

youtube.com/watch?v=Ly5ZKjjxMNM

I' read the exact same complaint on this board from Australians trying to get into the trades.

I fucking hate unions. I'm in management and unions complain and threaten to grieve over the most pedantic shit. The only thing unions have that is worth a shit is seniority.

Having unions automatically creates an Us vs Them mentality which is cancer in the work place. I just want you to do your goddamn job safely, I don't want to cheat you out of money.

Look at what happened over here with the miners and thousands of other unions before Thatcher sorted the mess out.

>bin men strikes
>blackouts due to miner strikes
>gravedigger strikes
>blockades in front of hospitals
>no fuel due to driver strikes
>general strikes that brought the country to a halt

Just look up the Winter of Discontent to see why unions need to be kept in check

But he's right. Who are you to demand work when someone doesn't want to hire you? You think that just because you were pushed out of your mom and survived long enough that you should be magically endowed with a paying wage?

Fuck off.

Yes, tell me how and why being employed by someone is a right and not a privilege granted by that someone.

It's not right wing left wing you tard live in the past. It's common sense.
We don't live in the early 20th century when workers died every day. Grow up.

Unions are not part of capitlaism. There is nothing voluntary about them even when all of their members have joined of their own free will. Unions are the one thing that prevents me from going full ancap. The market can only function if there is a small state that can help coerce workers and prevent them from revolting over stupid shit.

Union members are retards to a tee, being used as a voting force to keep labour relevant while at the same time being corrupt to the core and apposed to actually achieving anything for their workers since muh labour
They come to worksites try to unionise and threaten to stop work and bring their bikie mates along for intimidation.
They are complete scum, lefty organisations that are as corrupt as the fucking Saudi's.
Ever wonder why Trudeau just changed the need to show where union money is being spent as well as opening other processes of corruption.
>join the union goy
>we're for your rights hehe

Closed shops have been banned in Australia since the 80s, famalam, try to keep up with your bait knowledge.

What time is it Koalaville? Aren't you up early?

>I'm in management

Nuff said, opinion disregarded.

You literally have no argument and your positions are contradictory.

Unions artificially inflate wages beyond their worth

Employment is simply selling your labour to somebody, and you have the right to assemble with your fellow workers to control and withhold your labour to extract more money and better conditions

It is as free market as it gets, famalam.

They can still kick up enough stink to delay construction by a day or week. On large job sites, that's tens of thousands of dollars. It's also incredibly easy to find safety infractions on a large construction site (usually because one cunt insisted on not wearing a helmet, which he'll then claim was never inducted or given to him) Investigations = closed job site while they work out if you're innocent or not.

I'm union and make 5 times what my nonunion counterparts do. I also work for the Illinois Department of Motor Vehicles.

Guess what? There's nothing you can do about it unless you move to Michigan or Wisconsin.

Yeah, but nobody has to buy your body. No one owes you work in exchange for money.

>Aussie

nuff said, opinion disregarded

Technically the teachers are destroying the economy by teaching marxist drivel nowadays, so that's accurate at least.

That's not true, they can hold a stop-work meeting for a short time if they have serious safety concerns however they cannot stop work for a day or a week over it, it would not be protected industrial action.

Even the WHS Rep can not order a stop-work unless its a major safety infraction. If one exists, work SHOULD be stopped. And the supervisors should be picking up on someone not wearing a hardhat onsite.