SOPRANOS ENDING DISCUSSION I don't think Tony died. Not specifically. For those not aware of the death theory: youtube.com/watch?v=Cd9OsHsLJ28
In the original script, the guy in the Members Only Jacket was going to walk out of the bathroom and walk (towards Tony, as the only way out of the bathroom is towards him) before the screen cuts to black, and there would be no credits, just black the entire time. David Chase (creator) also talks about how there's no real mystery, in his opinion, and the clues to everything can be found within the episode and other episodes as well, which is shown in the video. He also mentions that what he did was more interesting than outright showing one conclusion or another, and he says, AND THIS IS IMPORTANT: THE ENDING SIMPLY ILLUSTRATES TONY AND CARMELA'S FUTURE.
Now, I think time just stops at the end. Forever. It's not because it's Tony's POV and he can't see or hear because he was shot in the head, it's just that there is nothing to see or hear because there is nothing more to see for the viewer, because time ran out. The ending transmits to the viewer this sensation of dread, of uncertainty, of fear about the unknown that the future brings. Whether Tony is shot there, or shot sometime later, or brought to trial, or starts taking over New York, the future always looks bleak for him, as it does to us in that moment.
The Sopranos, like many pieces of media, likes to mess around with time, skip forward, go backward, etc. Now it just stops.
Another thing David mentioned is how he often simply lets the musical masters do their work, signifying the magnitude of thought and importance he gives to the music in his work. Don't Stop Believin' by Journey is a message to the viewer as well, to never give up believing Tony gets a happy ending.
This way, you get strong implications of both TONY DIES and TONY LIVES, and NOTHING HAPPENS because it's a TV show that ends right there.
>Don't Stop Believin' by Journey is a message to the viewer as well, to never give up believing Tony gets a happy ending.
I disagree, I think if anything it's brutally ironic. Even if Tony didn't stop believing, he'd still be a shell of a person who had the chance to change and become better but didn't. Melfi stops treating him because she think's there's no hope for him. and she's right. Any hope of him changing died a long time ago, and all season 6 proved was that he would become more and more evil and paranoid.
Jordan Smith
He's dead and alive at the same time. Remember in 6x04 when the physicist with tony was talking about shrodinger and quantum physics. Well in the last episode the cat with Paulie is literally shrodingers cat. He even says in the last episode, "in the midst of death, we are in life." We as the audience are watching the diner scene through a tv BOX, we don't know what will happen, that's the point. The sopranos thrived on ambiguity: >was Paulie really haunted by ghosts >did Christopher really go to hell >did Ralph actually kill the horse >what happened to the Russian
Nathan Williams
I meant to touch upon Shcrodinger's cat but character limit. I think you are exactly right, plus there are these constant questions that are never answered, like the ones in greentext. Chase said he was still asked about the Russian around the time of the 6th season, and his response was "That was 3 seasons ago!", meaning, there is no answer.
I think things could change with Tony, just like they could have changed with Chrissy. Chrissy was a good, loyal kid, not infallible, but he could be very good, but he was simply a product of his environment, and we all know he tried very hard to overcome the difficulties in his life, but it just didn't happen, but it was very close to happening. Same thing with Tony, throughout the entire show he is constantly soliloquying about "how come it's always me? Can't I get a break once?"
Asher Jones
I personally see it as Tony's last supper. It's no surprise that the members jacket guy looks like Johnny soprano. S6 is all about tony coming to terms with who he is and realizing he hates his father for the path he set him on. It's a way of Tony's father symbolically killing him. Tony had many chances to change and become a better man, but he didn't. When AJ says "think of all the little moments" or something, tony doesn't even remember that he said it a long time ago. By the end of the series tony is basically detached from reality, he just doesn't care anymore. He got what was coming to him
Nathaniel King
"Life is short. Either it ends here for Tony or some other time. But in spite of that, it’s really worth it. So don’t stop believing" -David Chase
Oliver Kelly
he ded nigga
Logan Miller
[citation needed]
Charles Martin
this is a very interesting theory, i haven't heard that before. >hates his father for the path he set him on definitely gives a new meaning to the coma scenes with Tony's identity switcheroo
Leo Scott
agreed, only possible conclusion that one could draw from it
Nicholas Scott
I don't think he dies. And I don't think he lives. The show ends there--that's it. The pencil ran off the paper.
The reality of the Sopranos ends with that black screen.
Colton Brooks
this show really does have some great shots
Ryan Edwards
>The pencil ran off the paper. The reality of the Sopranos ends with that black screen. Exactly my thoughts. There is nothing going further back than 2007 to them.
I also forgot to mention in greater detail what I meant when I said the show fucks with time a lot- the 2nd part of the 6th season (Soprano Home Movies), is set in August 2007, while it aired in April 2007, so it would literally have to be the future. The finale aired in June, so it would still have to be the future. The creators are already showing us things that in our timeline would be the future, they just don't show what happens fully in the diner. Only once we ourselves are past 2007 can we ask things like "What happened?" instead of the real question, "What will happen? What could happen?"
Parker Hall
>thinking nu Sup Forums has seen the sopranos
Leo Flores
>It's no surprise that the members jacket guy looks like Johnny soprano He doesn't
>realizing he hates his father for the path he set him on Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember there being any indication that following his dad's career path was anything other than his own choice.
Kayden Edwards
>Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember there being any indication that following his dad's career path was anything other than his own choice. Well, he was exposed to it at an early age and the incident with the guy who gets his fingers cut off comes up several times during the therapy session, often seemingly out of the blue, similar to the mentions of Livia.
AJ's relationship with Tony is probably similar to Tony and Johnny's, except Tony came out on the positive side of it, he became a man, while AJ didn't- didn't go to military school, and his plans to go to the army were foiled by Tony's job offer, not to mention the construction job he gave him earlier; Tony's status influences AJ a lot, he gets him out of custody after he tried to kill Junior, he gets him out of being expelled in school, buys him a ton of shit, and, more importantly, gets him in contact with those kids that pour acid on some kid's foot and beat up another black kid
I think you could definitely make the case that Tony had the same situation as AJ, with the panic attacks and the depression, and how Tony also mentions his genes multiple times
Thomas Ross
Why are the sopranos threads the only threads on Sup Forums that are actually filled with good discussion and not just mindless shitposting
Kevin Collins
Holt shit, are you clinically fucking retarded? Tony gets shot in the head in the end.
Leo Nelson
I really really want to believe he didn't get headshot in a diner in front of his children
Anthony Morris
ironic
but in response to i guess it might be a filter. like this guy said they probably haven't seen it, and it's actually not a straightforward 'blockbuster' show, like say, GoT
discussing kino (once you get past the debate of whether or not saying 'kino' is a meme or not) is similar
I thought his sudden gambling problem was him spiting his father. His father emphasized that he should never gamble. Tony is a huge hypocrite though so who knows.
Parker Cox
Yeah, it's Tony's way of subconsciously rebelling against his father. It's no surprise that Tony's gambling happens really right after the episode remember whe; the episode where Paulie and tony discuss his father and the old days. There's a very in depth analysis called called Tony's patricide, adds another great layer to the show
Gabriel Nguyen
I still wanna know what the peyote scene meant and what did Tony "get" when he was watching the sunset?
Jordan Reyes
That Christopher was giving him bad luck?
Kevin Russell
There are two ways to interpret it
1. Tony just doesn't care anymore. Throughout the episode he was the only one that didn't give a shit about Christopher dying, he looked fucking souless when he suffocated Christopher. By the end he's like "fuck it, I am who I am".
2. He's just high on drugs. He thinks he 'gets it' and doesn't care anymore, but deep down in his subconscious he does care and wants to become a better person, but doesn't want to put in the hard work
Jack Martin
wow, i didn't even remember that his father told him that
you could find many meanings in it. remember how chrissy fucked a girl tony was interested in? now tony was fucking a girl that chrissy fucked, and tony essentially spent the day in chrissy's shoes, barely afloat somewhere doing drugs with a girl, as an escape from something (ironically, from chrissy's death, either from the death itself or the way he had to act in front of the others, or both). maybe he finally saw things from chrissy's side.
he also told his therapist that when he took peyote he "saw something", as in, something beyond life on earth, so it was kind of nihilistic in that way
>Chase was after the dreamy, chilling feeling he admired at the end of Stanley Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey in which time expands and contracts as life and death merge into one.
>He came in, he saw himself sitting at the table, and the next thing you knew he was at the table.
> And that to me was [everything]. I felt that those two characters had taken the midnight train a long time ago. That is their life.
>In my mind, it's like a meditation bell. Not to be thinking about the past, not to be thinking about the future, only about now. It's like the song 'This Magic Moment.' I used that at the end of 'Sopranos Home Movies,' and it's one of the songs he sees on the jukebox in this episode.
>I just wanted the guy to look over. I didn't want him to look particularly menacing. And he glances off Tony so quickly.
>The tension is quite high now, but if you think about it, for no real reason. Who's in the place?
>He doesn't feel threatened by him but I'm sure he clocks that that guy's in the bathroom, and that that guy should come out. It's more like 'I want to see that guy come out.' This is all on a subconscious level, I'm sure.
>Meadow is filled with nothing but very, very deep emotions about parking her car. But possibly a minute later, her head will be filled with emotions she could never even imagine.
>And the big moment is always out there waiting.
>And yet there's something wrong with it because Meadow is not there. So the family isn't really together. I think on some subliminal level that raises the tension. We know the family should be together and they're not.
>Life is short. Either it ends here for Tony or some other time. But in spite of that, it's really worth it. So don't stop believing.
Charles Morgan
They didn't want to kill off Tony because there was in talk of a movie. They purposely left it ambiguous so people like you could argue what it meant. It didn't mean anything. It was a cop-out. Worst show ending ever
Henry Turner
...
Nicholas Turner
DEADLINE: For The Sopranos, is it true that you shot three different endings? CHASE: No. there was another fake ending that we shot where, I forget what it was… Tony goes back to the Ba Da Bing and has an argument with Silvio or something. Well, it couldn’t have been Silvio because he was in the in the hospital. Well, anyway, it was a fake ending that we shot just to throw people off. This was when we had people trying to invade and get our scripts.
DEADLINE: Did the finale ultimately come out how you wanted it? CHASE: Yeah, pretty much; nothing ever comes out exactly as you want it but pretty much so.
DEADLINE: Did you know if from the beginning? CHASE: Not from the beginning but pretty fairly early on I had some kind of a notion that it would end like that. There was an alternative but it kind of had the same feel, just didn’t happen in a restaurant.
There were only talks for a PREQUEL
Adam Moore
Not sure what that reply means, but if you think that movie thing had no bearing on the ending, you're a fool.
>underestimating the Jewish love of money
It isn't just a meme, user
Henry Hill
now you're just being too overt about your bait, but you're forgetting that reaction image originated on Sup Forums while you're trying to bait with a Sup Forums post
how about you contribute to the discussion, autist?
Kayden Long
I haven't read that interview, and I could be wrong, but that's the conclusion I drew around the time after it aired.
And maybe I'm a pleb, but I like proper endings to shows/movies/books I love. I felt cheated after the Sopranos. Like having sex without the climax
Jose Ramirez
This has nothing to do with pol. Jews love money, especially entertainment industry Jews (and non-Jews). I don't hate Jews at all, but they are a little more money-hungry than others. I've dealt with a lot of them, believe me.
I actually almost wish I had their drive to amass wealth. Think of the proustites! Wew
Juan Cruz
The creator has straight up said he didn't die; just google it. This thread is pointless.
Juan Robinson
>I still wanna know what the peyote scene meant and what did Tony "get" when he was watching the sunset? explains it with milfy, about mothers being buses. also he says he does not remember well.
Connor Torres
you are a pleb desu
the sopranos is not straightforward at all. first of all, it defies any genre conventions, and it has tons of unresolved conflicts, unanswered questions, and even supernatural elements
it's just meant to be a commentary on life, but with the backdrop of the mafia, which constantly breaks down when there's so many comedic elements in it, not to mention how basically the first 2 episodes outright say "The golden days of the mafia are not coming back" and that that romanticism isn't real
>some bait Vox article >people in this thread have blindly stated "he's dead" just like you're doing now when saying "he's alive" >people in this thread have discussed how the meaning is that "he's dead" and "he's alive" could both be true at the same time good bait, made me reply
James Hall
Reminder that S1>>>>>>>S2>>>>>>>>>>>>>S3 and the rest after death of Livia and 9.11 is utter shit.
Also, livia is best character and yet she is underused in S2. REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Lincoln Mitchell
Almost 10 years later and people are still falling for the "you don't hear it coming" and "3 o'clock" memes. The fucking FACT is we never see Tony eating the bullet, so shut the fuck up.
>put on your swank Members Only jacket >go to Holsten's, grab a drink or two >order coffee >look around >place's comfy >oh, is that Tony Soprano? >shit, it IS Tony Soprano >damn, so cool to see the Jersey boss in the same diner as me >fuck, this coffee is good >shit, I gotta take a leak
That's all there is. He doesn't wear a cap or sunglasses, mafia hitmen usually just storm the crime scene and get shit done, they wear caps, sunglasses and drop their guns right away, they don't drink a fucking coffee or leave fingerprints and eye-witnesses all over the place. You're all fucking idiots.
Jaxson Cruz
>>That's all there is. He doesn't wear a cap or sunglasses, mafia hitmen usually just storm the crime scene and get shit done, they wear caps, sunglasses and drop their guns right away, yeah it happenned like this with silvio being a decoy at some dinner
Connor Bennett
what's your point? stop derailing the thread
matthew weiner, who was producer and writer and actor on the sopranos seasons 5 and 6, was the creator of mad men, and that also had an ambiguous ending, and they considered doing a spin off for that too, but the plans for the ending have been the same years before the show actually ended
Juan Sullivan
Not here for the discussion
wanted to commend OP for spoilering the ending just because it's an old show doesn't mean everyone has watched it
John Fisher
Eugene didn't wear a cap or sunglasses in S6 opener, but he was swift and quick, he wasn't there eating a sandwich before whacking that disgusting fatso.
Kevin Lewis
okay luigi spaghetti I'm sure you're an expert on mob hits.
Charles Watson
It could be just somebody's relative, seeking revenge, not actual mafia's hitman.
Ethan Phillips
Well, unlike your pathetic tumblr ass, I've actually done my research and OC has been my fascination since the childhood. Fuck, if you weren't such a lazy fuck, you could simply find some basic shit on plebpedia, but no, let's be fucking morons instead and say moronic things.
Brayden Ross
No offense, but that's some redit-tier theory pulled from darkest corners of someone's butt.
Matthew Ward
Well, do you remember how Patsy wanted to whack Tony for murdering his brother? Same thing could've happened there, it could be eugene's close relatative.
livia was good in that way that she reminded me of my mother and how much i hate her shit
>underused in S2 probably because she was very sick and was literally dead for her last scene
S1=S2=S5=S6=S4 ending>S4>S3
Hudson Russell
not him, but could you elaborate?
Gavin Davis
I don't think Chase is even capable of this lowest common denominator type shit. I truly believe he said this just to troll people because he's tired of being asked about the ending.
The Members Only jacket guy in the final episode was clearly a relative of Eugene Pontecorvo. He obviously kills Tony Soprano in the diner in order to avenge Pontecorvo's suicide.
Thomas Miller
>I love the timing of the lyric when Carmela enters: 'Just a small town girl livin' in a lonely world, she took the midnight train goin' anywhere.' Then it talks about Tony: 'Just a city boy,' and we had to dim down the music so you didn't hear the line, 'born and raised in South Detroit.' The music cuts out a little bit there, and they're speaking over it. 'He took the midnight train goin' anywhere.' And that to me was [everything]. I felt that those two characters had taken the midnight train a long time ago. That is their life. It means that these people are looking for something inevitable. Something they couldn't find. I mean, they didn't become missionaries in Africa or go to college together or do anything like that. They took the midnight train going anywhere. And the midnight train, you know, is the dark train.
from an article in the Atlantic, which says it so much better than I could: >And with that, the complex, multi-layered final scene of one of the all-time great TV series—indeed, the entire series itself—is reduced to a feeble Steve Perry lyric. Are we really talking about The Sopranos? Or did I somehow wander into a premature Glee retrospective? I suppose we should be grateful that Chase didn’t extend the song’s metaphorical architecture to “some will win” (Members Only guy, grinning over the smoking barrel of his pistol), “some will lose” (Tony, his head blasted in), “some were born to sing the blues” (Carmela, weeping over her husband’s bloody corpse), etc.
Benjamin Fisher
Patsy was drunk as fuck those days. And nothing about the MOJ guy indicates or supports the theory, other than the fucking jacket. The jacket is simply a visual cue telling us the guy's connected, that's it, they had to have someone from mafia in Holsten's, the episode name is Made in America after all, they had all the components of Tony's American life in that scene.
Just imagine what an hour of researching would do.
Jeremiah Williams
t. reddit with some flavor of tumblr
Daniel Allen
This is only obvious to those who believe you can determine if people are related based on whether or not they have the same jacket.
Xavier Carter
i think you're being too simple minded about this. the most important parts of that paragraph are >I felt that those two characters had taken the midnight train a long time ago. That is their life. It means that these people are looking for something inevitable. Something they couldn't find.
which ties back into OP's >AND THIS IS IMPORTANT: THE ENDING SIMPLY ILLUSTRATES TONY AND CARMELA'S FUTURE. and the time stops/schrodinger's ending etc theory
Nicholas Jenkins
All i am saying is that your argument about how unprofessional this guy is, hence he couldn't be the Tony's killer, is easily disproved by two previous attempts to kill tony, which was very amateur too.
Owen Flores
>one of the greatest scenes in all of cinematography
It's well shot, sure, but greatest ever? Seems pretty straightforward to me. Why do you think it's so great?
Chase Barnes
Fair enough, although seeing as how this thread is about the Sopranos and its ending, I don't feel like I'm derailing it at all
Hudson Jenkins
>Just imagine what an hour of researching would do. You don't need to be facetious you faggot, I was only asking because you went out of your way to tell everybody how much you're "into organized crime", meaning you're probably researched it a lot and could tell us some interesting things that WOULDN'T come up after 5 mins or 1 hour on google
and i was being nice too you're fucking useless
also Made in America is meant to allude to the diner, with pictures of american sports, typical american customers, jukebox, onion rings, shit like that; just the idea of a diner brings you back to the idealist 50's commercials, and the nuclear family (which arguably Tony has)
I also have a Members Only jacket. am i in the mafia too?
Isaac Evans
the comedy of it, the timing, the performance, the relationship, everything
i couldn't stop laughing the first time i saw it, i had to pause multiple times
there's several other bits of genius in this partnership, like when Paulie is telling Chrissy about the Cuban Missile Crisis and Chrissy says "That was real?"
Noah Collins
Previous attempts were niggers and the crazy Uncle Junior. Are you literally insane?
John Sanders
It's ambiguous
Henry Gomez
nu/tv/ has seen Sopranos for the memes but they all think Tony died
Grayson Hughes
Remember the old fucks they hired to kill Johnny Sack? Remember that old fuck Baccala Sr.?
There's no shortage of botchjobs in the show
Daniel Rogers
like what memes? as far as i remember there's the gif of tony on the boat and WATCH IT
there's a lot of great comedy in general in the show, but i wouldn't say it's "memetic"
William Ramirez
That's a nice greentext, user. Mind if I save it?
Caleb Russell
I rate this post
Dominic Edwards
I meant the memes Sup Forums made, not that Sopranos is inherently a memeshow
Sup Forums makes anything memetic
Julian Wood
The old creepy fucks were notorious hitmen, and they didn't even start the job because Tony cancelled it.
Baccala Sr. did his job, it's the heart that fucked him up. Did you even watch the show?
Grayson Myers
The same people who think Tony died by the hand of "le Eugene's MOJ cousin" are the same people who think Childs is The Thing because le no breath. Coincidence?
Jaxon Thomas
I mean to say that it was still goofy and considered unwise, if not amateur per se.
I think a much more acceptable theory would be that the MOJ guy walks into the bathroom because he knows who's about to come in- a guy with a machine gun and not meadow; but the reality is that the script implies the threat is the MOJ guy himself
Matthew Cooper
Epic b8 m8. Upboated :)
Jace Lee
>muh script
The script doesn't matter, it's what we see on the screen.
Tyler Moore
thanks
William Ward
GABAGOOL!!!1!
Leo Martin
waddaya hear waddaya say
Xavier Scott
>paulie dies >"watch it, Satan"
William Carter
*loyale
Elijah Cox
pure telekino
Jaxon Sanders
The point I got out of it is that we all die, we all might as well be dead because it's going to happen, so hold your family tight and all that shit.
Jayden Hernandez
Ambiguity is in and of itself an ending, a message. It can be used for a cop out (much like how I felt about Inception's ending) but in the case of the Sopranos it perfectly tied the series together in a knot...by "imperfectly", at least to our human need for a coherent story, ending.
Isaac Sanders
>tony blacks out when he gets that sweet sweet gabagool hit >realises that meadow got that gabagool in her purse
Benjamin Gray
>wake up >wipe the cigar ashes, tomato sauce, stripper glitter and gabagool grease from my polyester short-sleeved collared bowling shirt >breathe heavily and as loudly as possible on my trek down the stairs and across my McMansion to the kitchen (probably the most exercise I've done in years, I never did have the makings of a varsity athlete) >fix myself a hearty plate of gabagool with a side of gabagool >pour myself a glass of Tropicana™ with some pulp to wash down the diabetes >here comes A.J down the stairs >it's been a good week for him, he only attempted suicide 5 times and he got an F+ on his community college Remedial Arithmetic quiz >I'm proud of him >So proud of him that I take him outside to see his new car. My son only drives the best >A brand-new stretch hummer limo. The safest money could buy, and it gets ten feet to the gallon >A.J. starts bitching about the environment >Tell him I'll throw his ass back in the pool if he doesn't shut the fuck up and get in the hummer limo >He gets in, the hummer limo immediately bursts into flames >A.J. survives, is angry he's still alive and goes back up to his room to jerk off to interracial porn >Carmela arrives, she's back from the gabagool market >She presents to me crates, barrels, backpacks and suitcases packed to the brim with delicious gabagool >"It took me hours to gather all this gabagool, Tony. A thank you would be nice." >Give her a gabagool and cigar flavored kiss on the cheek and a crisp $100 bill, and pat her on the head. That'll do, Carm, that'll do. >Phone rings, it's Meadow >Everything goes to black, there's no punchline. Fuck you, lmao!
Bentley Miller
this is like when people used to say sting and the ultimate warrior were brothers because they both had similar face paint
Ryder Johnson
THEY DIDN'T HAVE HIGH TOPS IN ANCIENT ROME
Jeremiah Rodriguez
It makes perfect sense. Soprano is so worried about being killed by real gangsters from NY, or traitors from his own ranks, but a non-connected relative of one of his lower minions? He never saw that coming.
Such is the irony, and the absurdity, of real life.
Colton Nelson
WAS THAT CAT CHRISSYS REBORN SPIRIT OR NOT?!
Jack Evans
Didn't Chase already confirmed that Tony is not dead? I think I saw this article like year ago
Thomas Ross
I think he wore Eugene's favorite jacket out of respect/in honor of, his dead brother/cousin/nephew/whatever.
Michael Baker
No. It isn't. You're just being simple-minded.
Ayden Long
>Eugene loved his members only jacket >kills himself in an episode called Member's Only, because Soprano wouldn't let him retire
Very telling that the guy in the last episode, who never uttered a word, was actually listed in the credits as "Man in Member's Only Jacket".
Actors don't usually appear in the credits unless they either have a speaking role, or their appearance carries with it some kind of special significance.
The jacket is the key.
Thomas Bell
Furthermore the suicide was brought on because of his membership in the mafia. Also Tony had any opportunity to relinquish control and live a relatively normal life with his family, but he didn't stop believing that he could reconcile the violent mafioso shit with his his family. His pushing that guy to suicide was one of three primary things Tony did that brought him over the line, past redemption, the other two being killing Christopher and not wising up after his near death.
Christopher Miller
I concur
Lucas King
Its da jackeeettttttt
David Long
>>put on your swank Members Only jacket The Memebers only guy looked like an old school mobster, like Richie April, Eugene and Tony's dad even, it's like you blended those two guys. Members Only guy looks a lot like Eugene, and Eugene's wife hates Tony, it could make sense she tells Eugene's relative who may also be connected somehow somewhere and he clips Tony himself for his brother's death.
Zachary Garcia
Who care? Sopranos is such an overrated show. The ending is the worst ending in the history of television.
Jose Martin
I challenge anyone who says Tony isn't dead to successfully refute this giant fucking wall of text:
