/christian/ Thread

IIT we debate the various schools of Christianity

>protip: Coptic Orthodoxy is the one true path to the Kingdom of God

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus#Inculpable_ignorance
pastebin.com/xMQ9wAwW
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I have a question for fellow Christians. Does God just send Muslims and Jews to hell? There are Muslims and Jews who pray all day every day to God but disagree about Jesus. Are they screwed? Is there no mitigation?

We have no idea about who's going where. You might find a mass murderer in heaven and the holiest person you know in hell. It's not likely, but God's justice is outside of our comprehension, which is why every moral system we come up with falls before relativism.

Hello my brother in Christ!
You're wrong!

Hell doesn't fucking exist, it's a medieval concept. What Jesus said is that people who reject him will have a "second death". This means your soul will be destroyed after you die, meaning your consciousness will cease.

To debate one must have something to talk about.

Since religion is fantasy there is nothing of substance to debate.

The core of religion is faith. It's "It's true because I think it's true." That is fallacious irrationality.

doesn't that seem to make the core of our faith (the belief and acceptance of Jesus) a bit irrelevant?

Syriac's have a strong relationship with our Coptic brethren. Coptic's allowed my Assyrian community to use their large church for services while we were in the process of purchasing our own.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus#Inculpable_ignorance

>In its statements of this doctrine, the Church expressly teaches that "it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God";[12] that "outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control";[12] and that "they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life."[14]

>Inculpable ignorance is not a means of salvation.[27] But if by no fault of the individual ignorance cannot be overcome (if, that is, it is inculpable and invincible), it does not prevent the grace that comes from Christ, a grace that has a relationship with the Church, saving that person. Thus it is believed that God would make known to such a person before the moment of death, by either natural or supernatural means, the Catholic faith, since "without [such] faith it is impossible to please God", and this entails, for even the unbaptized, at the very least baptism of desire.

>Thus it is believed that God would make known to such a person before the moment of death, by either natural or supernatural means, the Catholic faith, since "without [such] faith it is impossible to please God", and this entails, for even the unbaptized, at the very least baptism of desire.

Just in case someone forgets how to read halfway through the post.

Theologians are all over the map about this. Unfortunately there's no way to be sure. The closest we can get is that Padre Pio once mentioned something about a devout jew who was saved.

So what about Muslims and Jews who know of Christianity. It seems unjust to me that God would condemn them when they worship him.

I hate this fucking pope, and one of my local Catholic places is no better than the local Jew Bastard Temple bringing in the ISIS fighters. I'm not giving any fucking money to "Catholic Charities."

But blessed be my friends and brothers in Christ.

I am convinced of the existence of God, and I believe that he is just. I hope that there is a redemption for righteous Jews and Muslims.

KNOW THAT YE ARE GODS

I'm about 3/4 through reading the Urantia book.

I highly suggest everybody read it.

The thought adjuster dwells within all mortal man so that his personality may live on after physical death and go on a cosmic journey of universal government, forever working towards higher and higher levels in search of the father.

Also that Jesus was actually Michael, the local universe creator-son. As the local universe creator, his most recent adventure was coming to earth (Urantia) as a mere mortal man to experience what it's like to be one of his creations.

Evidently us humans are just about the lowest level of intelligence in the local universe.

If anything, the absolute autistic level of detail of the planet's history is fucking amazing.

This is seventh-day adventist garbage, and is not supported by scripture. For example:

Revelations 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Also:

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This clearly disproves the doctrine of annihilationism, the scriptures clearly state that the soul after death, whether sent to Heaven or Hell, is immortal. Those who God sends to Hell remain there for eternity.

YOUR SAVIOR WILL SUCK MY GLORIOUS COCK

It is tragic, but not unjust. God made it clear how He wishes to be worshiped.

>God made it clear how He wishes to be worshiped.

This is a great example of the logical failure inherent.

Deity = omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, singular

somehow needs to be worshiped

it defies all logic

an omni being has no needs

so that means one must believe God is limited

If God is limited then God can't be a deity. God must instead be a creature of some sort, fallible.

religion is such low-hanging fruit in terms of faulty logic...

ALLAH ALBAR

>somehow needs to be worshiped
>it defies all logic
>an omni being has no needs
He doesn't need to be worshiped for His own sake. Nobody has claimed this.

>needs to be worshipped

That is the problem with your reasoning. God wants to be worshiped but doesn't need it.

"He" doesn't need to be worshiped period

An omni deity has no needs

no needs means no desires of any kind

that means no reason to create the Earth, people, whatever

That's the problem with omni. It renders something meaningless

So you're left with limited, fallible, creature

>no needs means no desires of any kind
I don't need to chew gum but I'm chewing a piece right now because I feel like it.

I don't think your statement makes sense.

>So you're left with limited, fallible, creature

Judeo-Christianity tries to have its cake and eat it, too.

Literally.

They want to have a fallible/limited/creature God, like pagans, but then want to eat him in order to make him omni.

It's a cute trick but it's an utter failure logically.

>"He" doesn't need to be worshiped period
That's effectively what I said. I phrased it the way I did to be exceedingly clear that I wasn't saying "people don't need to worship Him". God has no needs

>No desires
Source: Your ass

>No reason
We were created because our ability to choose wrongly makes choosing rightly matter.

>Coptic Christianity
>rejected the Roman Empire when it still physically existed

>omnipotence means He can't do this

>I don't need to chew gum but I'm chewing a piece right now because I feel like it.

need, want, desire = need, want, desire

omni needs nothing
wants nothing
desires nothing

omnipotent = all-powerful
omniscient = all-knowing
omnipresent = everywhere

and all three are the same thing

just as need, desire, and want are all the same in this context

>omnipotence means He can't do this

yes

because it's paradoxical

omni can do nothing because it has no needs

Omnipotent being can be said not to "need" anything, true, but that's not the same as desires. An omnipotent being without a will isn't really a being, or omnipotent.

>omni wants nothing desires nothing
Citation needed.

>omnipotent = all-powerful
>omniscient = all-knowing
>omnipresent = everywhere
No they aren't. Omnipotent would presumably enable the others, but knowing everything would not automatically make you omnipotent nor omniscient.

>he thinks the roman empire was a good thing
fucking historically illiterate degenerate. probably a hillary supporter.

Haven't read the thread yet but we can all agree Christ is a strict pacifist, right?

The terms aren't important, neither is praying. What is important is the salvation of Christ.

I'm thinking of becoming muslim what do?

The Roman Empire enabled Christianity and civilization to rapidly spread throughout Europe.

it's a paradox

you don't get to limit a paradox to suit your fantasies

...Why?

Joining the people that want to destroy everything we live/stand for is just bad. They'll kill you as well.

pastebin.com/xMQ9wAwW

Young Earther here.

>See: Cleansing of the Temple

I don't know why you feel that all-power fullness would remove all desire.

I don't agree with you that all want is a product of need. There is artwork on my wall because I wanted it there, but I had no need for it.

Oh pls if Muslims don't go to hell than who the fuck will??

If strict pacifism includes going nuts one day at the temple, kicking over jew money changer tables, and yelling at them, then sure.

Jesus was truly a master at making the jews mad.

Read Revelation and Isaiah 63:3. Get back to me on that.

Turn the other cheek is more literal than that. Insults, petty violence like slaps on the cheek, etc should be ignored. Violence is legitimate when used to defend your life or the life of a person being attacked.

Redemption is the chance for Salvation, not Salvation itself.

The book of Acts kind of reads like fanfiction bullshit. The Islamic interpretation of scripture makes sense to me.

They only enabled and spread Christianity once it had been altered and compromised to the point that they found it suitable.

Based user

Salvation is not based in works.
Lutheran here, obviously.

No it isn't. There is no reason an omnipotent being cannot have desires.

>I don't know why you feel that all-power fullness would remove all desire.

because you have yet to comprehend what omni means

it's a paradox that means all things simultaneously

such a being (deity) has no needs because it is everything all the time

there are no decisions to make

only limited/fallible have agency, precisely because of their limitations

Man 1: sincerely repents in jail after commit murder. Heaven.
Man 2: shot by cops. Potential to have sincerely repented. HeLl.

?

Debating senseless, man-made, obsolete fiction with logic... this post happened in Byzantium, over and over... If you want to believe, just believe. God is an act of faith, no need to be butthurt because every other religion makes just as much (non) sense.

Faith without works is dead. True living faith does not exist without works.

>There is no reason an omnipotent being cannot have desires.

if you don't understand fully what omnipotent means

conventional hare-brained thought is that it just means "really big"

that's not what it means

it means ALL

In our modern world, this image is more relevant than ever.

Compare how Christianity spread from Italy and Greece to how it survived in Egypt and Ethiopia.

It's not a "paradox" for a being that can do anything to want to do something. I don't see how you can call that a "paradox".

I was accosted by a group of Mormon missionaries one day out of nowhere. An interesting discussion about works vs. acts ensued. Nobody involved converted their views, but it was probably a better way than usual to spend time with door-to-door salesmen.

We all said a brief prayer together at the end and said good-bye.

>it is everything all the time
Christianity is not pantheistic. Omni is not even a singular word in English, it's a root.

The ones that wiggle rattlesnakes are the best.

>It's not a "paradox" for a being that can do anything to want to do something. I don't see how you can call that a "paradox".

your thinking is too limited

maybe you'll get it later

Worshiping the long haired jew

two failures to rebut noted

Works are the fruit of salvation, proving salvation but not being the source of it. Faith without works is dead, as the seed was planted incorrectly if there was no fruit.

He was a frizzy-haired shitskin

Kek.

American Christians complain about being persecuted.

I bet if they lived in Egypt they would go full Muslim in 12 months. Copt Christians know true persecution and have held the faith for 1000 fucking years.

Tragic. Do not assume you will have all the time in the world to repent. It's a sin to do so.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I find it hard to understand that so-called adherents to scriptures can look over such a clear and plainly worded piece of scripture. Your belief has only come about many years later, and only by ignoring these verses.

I've had some interesting discussion with Mormons myself. I have my share of problems with them. Jehovah's Witnesses are also fun.
PROTIP: Jehovah's Witnesses will bow their heads if you said Jehovah, but usually refuse to pray with you. Start your prayer with "Almighty Jehovah God" and they're forced to pray with you.

Fair point.
Western Christians (Protestants especially) have been too sheltered for centuries, and become degenerate.

James is obviously not in disagreement with Paul, who says to opposite. James is not speaking of salvation, but of a proper Christian life.

>Debating senseless, man-made, obsolete fiction with logic... this post happened in Byzantium

before

I see what you mean now.

I think taking your description of omni into account it would be more accurate to describe what I think about this universe as some sort of fluctuation in the infinite power and action of God. Maybe like a cosmic burp.

I don't feel that God is an inactive, fulfilled mass of omnipotence. I do feel that he is living and changing through time.

Yes, they've always been guarded by their Eastern Orthodox Christian neighbors who border Islam. Oriental Orthodox have had a full taste of what Islam has to offer, and it's bitter all the way through.

>I do feel that he is living and changing through time.

then you do not believe in a deity

you believe in a powerful creature


also, one cannot use "he" for anything omni

omni is, by definition, singular because it is everything

he requires other creatures in order to have a logical justification for sexual difference

I'm an agnostic atheist but even I know all men are offered a chance to repent in front of God after they die.

I believe he is just as well. I believe in God but struggle with understanding Him and the afterlife. All we can do is try to lead good lives and strive to improve our world.

So you believe that Jesus is merely some favored 'prophet' and not God the son? I looked at Islam once but found their system of Hadiths as something that I wasn't willing to accept as the word of God.

Who ever doesn't put their trust in Christ will go to hell

I haven't met many Jehovah's Witnesses, but some of them give me the creeps. Whatever's going on in the inner circles at least your average Mormon seems to be pretty genuine.

That goes a long way in my book. I find it very off-putting when people use religion as some sort of front.

True, true, true.
Though Latin/HRE Catholics also did good work against the Muslims until the tide was turned in the late 18th century, although having to fight heretic dividers may have tainted the mindset a little bit.
Nothing pisses me off more in Christianity than the Protestant victimisation narrative, or the proxy-racialism of a lot of heresies.

>I don't feel that God is an inactive, fulfilled mass of omnipotence.

you can just as easily say "completely active"

all states are simultaneous and meaningless because they never change

>So you believe that Jesus is merely some favored 'prophet' and not God the son? I looked at Islam once but found their system of Hadiths as something that I wasn't willing to accept as the word of God.

It makes sense in the context they present it, and the hadith are not something you necessarily have to accept.

I pray for our cuck pope every night.

He has no concern for the state of the church, or the world for that matter.

Every weekend at mass during the petitions when we pray for the pope I give an especially loud "LORD HEAR OUR PRAYER".

But like you said, a Christian is a Christian

Makes sense, but most of my interaction with Mormons has been with missions in other countries. I assume that it's stranger outside of Utah.

DEO OPTIMO MAXIMO, HEATHEN

>especially loud "LORD HEAR OUR PRAYER".
lel that's a good one. I think I'll start doing that.

It's convention to use he. You are right that it is not an adequate description of him.

It's hard for me to explain to you how I feel about God's omnipotence. I believe that he exists several dimensions above us in a place where time is a meaningless measurement and that perhaps our experience in this universe is the result of some incomprehensible turbulence in God's omnipresent being.

>implying we care about this cuck religion

O don't think that's true for Catholicism but maybe this is what purgatory is about?

read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

>It's convention to use he.

It's radically incorrect to put sexual dimorphism onto a monotheistic deity

"It" is better, although it implies limitation in English.

I didn't say he was a fucking pussy.
Okay, but those are tripping Jews, not the good man himself.
Now where did he say that?

I have. It was the book that led me away from Asatru.

People always searching for evidence of the lord, but in reality, it's fucking everywhere.

The here chance of our existence, YOUR existence, is a miracle in itself. The scarcity of life, let alone intelligence in the vastness of the Universe, is, at least to me, evidence that God is real.

Even the Atheist fucks researching life on other planets said that that alone was the most compelling piece of evidence religious people had.

Then you have the Shroud of Turin, Lourdes, the miracles of the saints, etc.

And again salvation is based upon faith. So, did you ever wonder, that perhaps Satan, the "god" of the Earth, put in place all this "evidence" proving that God isn't real? It's faith you fucking morons. Faith is proof of God's existence.

God bless my brothers and sisters in faith, and I'm praying for all of you fedora-tipping retards.

>fanfiction bullshit
Reminder: Mohammed was a man that spread Islam by the sword. He also had child brides. This is a "holy" man that you want to follow?

Before you commit yourself to this, I advise you to speak to an ex-Muslim or a non-Western Muslim to see the true side of this religion.

I think "he" is used to further the idea of God as the Father. He behaves in a Fatherly way, not a Motherly way. Does that make sense?

Leave this thread, Ahmed.

It isn't simply a guideline for how a Christian should live his life, Christ would not tell us to do something were it not necessary. For example in:

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

These verses as well clearly state that Christ will reject those who have not lived a moral, as you said, proper Christian life.

... don't.