Watchmen

So, who was in the right here? Rorschach or Ozymandias?

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Rorschach because he is literally me

Ozymandias because he got results rather than operating on the feels > reals principles of Rorschach.

>angry bigoted ginger manlet with mother issues
sounds about right

Ozy's plan is based on feels > reals

Childhood is believing in Rorschach

Adulthood is realizing Ozymandias was right

on one side
>save entire world from mutually assured destruction by sacrificing a small fraction of the population for the greater good

On the other
>unflinching morals means killing one innocent person is wrong regardless if the ends justify the means

Ozymandias becasue he is literally me

No it isn't. It objectively averted nuclear conflict and ended the Cold War.

Neither were 'right'
There is just different views, actions and consequences

Owlman was right

>implying a giant squid would change the realities of scarcity based conflict

>Leftism is believing in Ozymandias
>Rightism is realising Rorschach was right
ftfy

>I think a COMIC BOOK is an AUTHORITY

How do you like working at McD's bro?

i'm dumb as fuck
Can someone explain to me why Dr. Manhattan didn't just end the Cold War? Or why did he kill Rorschach?

kantian vs utilitarian ethics. pick a side. it's what makes the villain so interesting. it's also something zack snyder cannot comprehend so it doesn't show up in any meaningful way in the movie at all.

playing on people/government's feels instead of reals

Only edgy teenagers think either of them are anything more than retarded sociopaths.

>save entire world from mutually assured destruction
There was only a fear of nuclear war, just like during the real cold war. And technically it would be 'postponed' if nuclear war was going to happen, there is no telling what happens in the future.

Read some real literature. I recommend Steinbeck or the Japanese dude who wrote Never Let Me Go (available in hc and paperback)

Did you miss the part where he says they're developing renewable sources of energy? Ozymandias thought about that. The false flag was a short-term solution. He also had long-term policies.

He says himself that he wouldn't be able to stop all the nukes if they launched them all.

>Or why did he kill Rorschach?

Because rorschach will accuse him with his mother

He literally can do anything.

Roxaxe. Killing people is bad. If you disagree, go out yourself right now and kill some people.

>Ishiguro
>/lit/

>Steinbeck
>literally read in high schools

fuck off mate. Watchmen's perfectly /lit/. Alan Moore is a good writer.

t. /lit/

What are you trying to say? The psyop got the desired results, that's what makes it realistic rather than emotional. Rorschach's "moral" gesture would mean everybody dying in nuclear holocaust.

>reading books magically makes you smart

>watching a black dude fuck you're wife automatically makes you a cuck

Well no it's not magic and you have to understand what you read

go back to getting laughed off /lit/ for your entry level taste in literature. Watchmen is received pretty well there, because it's actually good. Not the film, obviously.

>go back to getting laughed off /lit/ for your entry level taste in literature
wasn't me who recommended those books m8

>Dude, Ozymandias was right because the world wasn't nuked
The world wasn't nuked in real life either, without the help of mass murder and giant squids

Not when it comes to nukes. Read a fucking science book

I don't quite understand. Even if there's a ceasefire and free energy why wouldn't the cold war resume?

Except in Watchmen they were closer to nuclear war than we ever were in real life. How long is it since you read the book?

>comparing a fantasy picture book for kids to real life events

You are retarded, you can't compare art (using that term loosely) to the real world or it loses its meaning

Because now humanity is united against a common enemy - namely the inter-dimensional squids that don't exist. Even Ronnie Reagan acknowledged in a speech that a threat from another world could unite humanity. It is not so improbable an idea.

>you can't compare art (using that term loosely) to the real world or it loses its meaning
>You are retarded
I think that you are the retarded one, my friend.

It exploited feels>reals

This is the most subhuman and anti-intellectual way to reason, I wish every person who ever has ever said this would take some form of ethics 101 class or something, or just epistemology.

Everytime you bring up moral actions you have to value "feels" over "reals", what this translates to is that someone discards logic to pursue whatever goal his emotions dictate to him.

But here's the thing, it's literally impossible to derive morality logically, it all boils down to feels.

When you say murder is bad you are doing [feels > reals].

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is–ought_problem

This is just a bullshit copout. The Cold War and the Vietnam War were real events, Moore was consciously placing superhero characters into a setting akin to the real world.

The fact that you go
>lol plebian, you don't understand art
and then hint that you barely consider comics art anyway shows you just like the sound of your own stupid voice.

do you think the USSR would stop being communist at that point?

Rorschach is wrong for the right reasons.
Ozymandias is right for the wrong reasons.

>This is the most subhuman and anti-intellectual

seem pretty emotional yourself there buddy

Ozymandias would have to keep it up, which means more trickery and mass deaths. After a year, or 5 years, or a decade with no alien attacks, everything would just go back to how it was.

I just clarified why I'm permitted to do this you donkey.

Rorschach is right. Consequentialism is always a failure

he's right though

why didnt manhattan just make some star trek replicators or kill nixon

they both were

>in Watchmen they were closer to nuclear war than we ever were in real life
It's literally the same scenario. If you know anything about the time period it's set in, you would know that experts and laymen alike genuinely believed a nuclear exchange was right around the corner.

No, but the Cold War was not exclusively ideological in its basis. It also had to do with control of resources and spheres of influence. It's why liberals today still treat Russia as a major threat even though it is no longer communist. This is also why the US was able to develop better relations with China in the 1980s without them ever surrendering their communist ideology. Consider also the improvement in relations between the US and Vietnam, in spite of the fact that Vietnam is still classified as a socialist republic and the impact of the war is still felt in Vietnam.

yeah but as long as they are communist and not in post scarcity they know they wont be able to compete with capitalist production & trade and therefore need to spread communism globally.

>Rorschach didn't get results

And that's where Ozymandias research into new energy sources comes in.

energy isn't going to make new food or scarce minerals/metal appear. If his plan was to stop the conflict then get a ceasefire with free energy while he has manhattan whip up some star trek shit then yeah that could work. But otherwise its a half measure

The economic problems of the USSR had primarily to do with bureaucratic mismanagement and human error rather than scarcity of resources. USSR expansion was primarily into regions with oil resources. If an alternative energy source had been discovered, then that expansion would have been unnecessary. This alone would significantly increase global stability.

Reading books doesn't automatically make you smart, but if you don't read, you aren't smart.

I lived the time. I know exactly what i was like. I had just turned draft age. There was total fear that we'd see a war/Nuke exchange soon.

However, there's one difference. We didn't have Dr Manhattan. The Russians hadn't been living under the threat of retaliation by a god for decades. America never had to deal with losing Vietnam, and some of the other shit that went down at the time (Watergate anybody?) so we were an even bigger world power than real life in the book. The social conditions were different. Yes things were similar in real life, but the world situation at the time in Watchmen was ours, cranked up to 11. Things were ready to snap at any given moment.

Reread the text piece where it talks about Dr Manhattan and Russia.

...

...

...

you are just saying what I said while eschewing the faults of (NOT) Real Communism™ and ignoring the purpose of the iron curtain

>being this old
>still reading children's stories
m8...

>The world wasn't nuked in real life either,
Give it time.
America and Russia never hated each other as much as they do right now and both have the most amounts of nukes in history.

>America and Russia never hated each other as much as they do right now
you're about 1 election behind the times

The populations user.
Sure america's leader is a russian puppet but that won't last forever.

do you hate Russians? I don't think I know any IRL. Don't think they hate me either

>America and Russia never hated each other as much as they do right now

sometimes i wonder if americans really are so dense and looking for enemies irl

>he doesn't know that nothing ever ends

truly a pleb
im off to mars now

How can I be expecting to believe Ozy is Reals >feels when He dresses himself like a fucking God, dude is a narcissistic twat

That is not how statistics work user.
Something can be huge and not apply to you.

Like for example maybe you aren't religious. Most of the world is.

this, "the only human I have ever felt kinship with died 300 years before the birth of christ"

what a prick

intelligent, nihilistic and with a wicked sense of humour?

None was right. Moore is an anarchist edgelord none of his characters are morally superior than him that's why he writes them as ambiguously moral

youtube.com/watch?v=wHylQRVN2Qs

Ozy
He did accomplished world peace remember?
Rory was like >muh principles, never compromise, but the guy literally saved the world from nuclear annihilation

A wierd loner with emotional problems that eats cans of beans

Are you fucking retarded?
In the real world Dr Manhattan doesn't exist either and Superheros arent real

Fucking bitch

he doesn't eat the cans, that's just silly

Why a squid tho

no. rorschach was an edgy snowflake and anarchist. he was antifa. doeant matter tho. the only person who was right was the comedian

>incest rapist
nah

no stupid, his ideology. i didnt say he did nothing wrong

Ozi was correct.
Rorschach accomplished nothing and would have doomed the world.

The thing that makes Rorschach incorrect is that he's not an actual objectivist like his counterpart the Question.
Question was originally an objectivist until Alan Moore got a hold of him to make Watchman but with similar archetypical characters. Rorschach is essentially a Batman without weapons or tools detective noir pushed to its logical extreme. What makes Rorschach interesting is that it's clear that he has roots in objectivism thought like being a moral absolutist but he's not an individualist. Objectivist argue that everything in life is measured through a hierarchy of values with your highest value being your own life to judge all others values and rank them in your own hierarchy. When the little girl was butchered, he lost his identity and became Rorschach. This made him lose his individualism and will to live. He had no reason to exist other than perpetuate justice and his moral absolutism. In a sense, he became an automatron collectivist. Had he truly cared about his values or life, he would have lied to hide the truth and then later reveal it. When Dr Manhattan put a gun to his head, he screamed to do it. He cared little for his life.
Between the collectivist peace brought by Ozi and the spook moral absolutism of Rorschach, it's clear who was in the right.

Anyone who thinks that Rorschach was right in any way is a deluded idiot.

Rorschach left behind his diary thought.

The implication being the simple truth would destroy Ozis great plan that killed people and retarded the planet.

Rorschach's journal would be just considered a conspiracy theory

However, a quick scientific investigation of the alien's remains would indicate that it was a fabrication.

Watchmen is stupid. Maybe the movie's choice of using Manhattan is better after all.

>leave the diary at a sensationalist newspaper office
>the kind of newspaper only people like Rorschach read

Nothing would have changed, the correct answer is The Comedian.

I doubt Manhattan would agree to fucking the earthlings when he just wanted to leave.

Movie ending sucked and we all knew it.
Good movie overall though.

best answer

Exactly why he was wrong. The world is built on lies and deceit, blood and forgotten faces. The truth is worthless except to those who use it to their own gains. Rorschach unveiled the truth for nothing.

Imagine if Rorschach had lied at the end, survived the encounter and had to live among the people. His truth released and the war reignited. As bombs fell from the sky, killing him, what would he have accomplished? Nothing.

I'm unsure if this is Moore not understand that while objectivist say they never compromise, they will compromise when their life is at stake. Many people see the ending as Ozi saving the world by lying for the greater good, for collectivist reasons, while Rorschach maintained his truth for idealistic reasons, but no, he did it for moral collectivist reasons without any regards to his life. If anything, Ozi is the only true individualist between the two.

It might be considered a conspiracy theory, but for how long? How long can the lie be kept until people understand that there will be no alien invasion? Something I asked a friend once is how would humanity ever unite and he pointed to Watchmen and he was right. Humanity fighting aliens is inherently collectivist. Our race against their race. Our group against their group. That's how humanity was united. And if there is no 'other', the lie would die.

>Maybe the movie's choice of using Manhattan is better after all.
The result is the same. The plot was to make Dr Manhattan destroy different cities and make it seem like the wrath of a God telling people ''stop fighting or I'll kill all of you''. But if it's uncovered that Manhattan never did it, and he's in another galaxy, then the war will resume.

Both movie and comic end on the same defeatism note.

>he was antifa

>Thought Truman rocked for nuking the Japs
>Hates homosexuals
>Thought the Comedian (A man described as "basically a nazi") was a true hero
>antifa

>The world is built on lies and deceit, blood and forgotten faces.
>Our race against their race. Our group against their group. That's how humanity was united.

No wonder Manhattan hated this shit.
What kind of self destructive future this would inevitably cause.
It's a little sad because it does ring true for our own little world.

>Rorschach left behind his diary thought.
The one that's repeatedly been mentioned having such a shitty handwriting that only he could read it? The one that got picked up by some fat lowlife that lacks any real world credibility?

No, Ozymandias' plan wouldn't fail because of some second rate Alex Jones.

The Comedian

The news editor read the beginning, it's readable.

>he wouldn't be able to stop all the nukes
In other words, Alan Moore is a standard hack comicbook writer. He was just extra edgy.

It's not justified in the story at all. He just didn't want there to be any reasonable answer to the threat of atomic annihilation.

The information remains though, it will be duplicated and stay true.

How many people will Ozy kill to keep it silent.

Is turning the future to shit really saving it?

Do we have to spell it out for you?
N-U-K-E-S