M5S fails at every chance it is given to rule

>M5S fails at every chance it is given to rule
>Renzi doing relatively* well
>relatively being not fucking up everything and being entirely and completely corrupt
>actually doing his job in some cases, all things considered
>M5S made up of people who win votes by being "young" or "women" and nothing else
>their biggest fuck-up is in their mayors who fail completely
>Rome, which is indebted as hell and has MASSIVE problems, elects a female 37 y/o mayor
>some dude less than 30 years of age who looks like an utter psychopath favorite for next PM of Italy

MUH ESTABLISHMENT

MUH FUCK THE SYSTEM

Holy shit why are italians so colossally stupid

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No European country will be saved by politics, we need Tabula Rase, a clean slate.

>No European country will be saved by politics

Well you sure as fuck won't

>between Hollande and Le Pen or even Sarkozy

Should be a new saying of between a rock and a hard place desu

Meanwhile I'll keep voting Lega Nord because muh heritage and lulz.

>mfw you fall for it

>Renzi
>doing well
UNA RUSPA A TE E FAMIGLIA

What I'm supposed to do then? I'm stuck in this shithole at least for now.

>>>>>>Italians

>muh fuck the system

Your country is a shithole and everyone is a corrupt bastard, from a ranking of vomited out shit to smelly shit, Renzi goes somewhere around the top.

I mean god, at least he broke up some communist practices that were literally cucking everything regarding to business.

Don't listen to this non-countryman
Salvini will make Italy great again

>Renzi doing relatively* well
Holy fucking shit. I hate Italian expats who haven't got the slightest clue and still gobble up all our press bullshit. Jesus Christ
based

Yes, just vote for him

>Holy fucking shit. I hate Italian expats who haven't got the slightest clue and still gobble up all our press bullshit. Jesus Christ

And I love Italians whose political culture begins and ends with

>fuck the system everyone is a cunt so vote for that new guy who has never been part of the system so we can make him a part of the system then fuck him too

I never thought I could find a Renzi shill on Sup Forums

What a time to be alive.

That's exactly what I'm going to do, Comrade Waffle

Europe needs a meteorite.

Do you really believe this? Renzi didn't cut bureocracy at all and he kept raising taxes on businesses.
t. business owner
I pray that Lega gets into power since a 10% flat tax would do wonders for investments here.
With investment come more jobs and less poverty, which is something you don't fix with the 80 Euro Renzi bride.
And he calls other parties populists. Please

I have actual arguments for why Renzi is crap. I'm not a tinfoil muh reptilians voter.
Try again

>raising taxes is bad
>lowering taxes is good
>investment

You have so many other things to fix first of all.

It's not like slightly poor countries in the south haven't done a 10% flat tax before. Guess what. It failed.

Until you drop the retarded political system, you're pretty much fucked. At least Renzi is moving in that direction.

But it's not like you'll let him, you'll just re-elect Berlusconi or that one guy who shows a middle finger and "says it like it is".

Go on then, let me hear them.

BUT I want them bundled up with arguments as to why someone else is better. Because my argument is and will continue to be that Renzi is crap, but better crap than anyone else now or in the near future.

>Le Pen

the only rock and a hard place with Le Pen is muh dick

>mfw they think nationalism is going to fix crippling debt and a communist country that is incapable of competitiveness and has been living off Germany for the last 10-15 years
>mfw they have no choice because my opponents are the people who caused that and failed to fix it and are pure cucks

Take it, take it all

I am amazed by based belgium user

>raising taxes is bad
>lowering taxes is good
Listen buddy the public sector in Italy is going to shit completely. I work in healthcare and anyone can tell you this. Same for transportation, pensions and a bunch of other things. Lower taxes bring more private investement ONLY IF you couple them with less bureocracy, and Renzi is doing neither of those.
Not to mention that one of the most pressing issue in Italy is unemployment. We have mazss emigration (and consequent immigration, with all the crime and crap that comes with it), low birthrates, lowering per capita GDP, unstable healthcare/pensions sysytem all thanks to that factor: unemployment.
And Renzi didn't fix that with his labor law, far from it. The situation is stable (with zero growth prospect) for the next two years, after that we all expect mass lay offs.
Renzi operates like this, he creates a structure that is sustainble only in the short term, because he only cares about that. He knows he won't be reelected

>taxes
>public sector
>unemployment

Let me tell you something very simple that has been backed with proof from many EU countries -

ALL OF THAT MATTERS JACK SHIT unless you reform the POLITICAL SYSTEM.

As long as you have the senate in its current form and the judicial system as it is, it won't matter for shit, because him lowering taxes and the public sector or whatever will be seized as an advantage by someone, he'll dominate the system, roll back the reforms and throw you back into the same swamp you came from.

Renzi or Salvini or whoever the fuck you want does not and will not matter for shit until your system is at least slightly unblocked.

And you are criticizing the stability with zero growth. Yet again, another fun "Renzi is crap" argument that doesn't take into account that everything else is worse. Every south european country is getting fucked unbelievably, they are declining and have no idea what the fuck they're supposed to do. Hell, most of Europe is. And here you are, complaining about temporary stability.

Try and offer Greece temporary stability. See what happens. Considering Greece is in pretty much the same situation you are.

See this.
If you want some of the points on how to fix Italy I can resume them like this:
>Lowering taxes on middle class to free up investment
>remove bureocracy, in particular EU regulation which castrated us
>need to become indipendent from immigrant labor. A country cannot base its growth on foreign growth
>more deregulations on the private sectors. We are far too protectionist in regards of our internal market and far too laissez fair in regards to foreign markets
>cuts to the public sectors and consequent privatizations
>pro natality policy. Work places and apartments reserved to Italian couples chosing to have children.
That's a good start. If you want I can post more

>has been living off Germany for the last 10-15 years
Ah now everything is explained. Sure thing mate, we should thank Germany for a lot of things such as.....
Oh yeah nothing.
But maybe you meant thank you Met kek for forcing us to take sandniggers. Thank you Europe for forcing us to stop producing milk and other products because muh quotas. Thank you again, I think the appropriate reward for your help would be a bullet.

And don't even think about saying EU money because Italy is one of those members that has always paid more than what it received.
Fuck you kraut bootlicker


I really hope this is a bait thread at this point

I was talking about France, my friend.

Marine le Pen is the presidential candidate for France.

Italy is not a presidential republic.

>remove bureocracy, in particular EU regulation which castrated us
>more deregulations on the private sectors. We are far too protectionist in regards of our internal market and far too laissez fair in regards to foreign markets
>cuts to the public sectors and consequent privatizations

Public opinion drops far down, people in the system show the corrupt/careeristic politicians a chance to abandon the sinking ship that is Renzi, "fuck the system make me part of it so I can say it like it is" guy number #8438 is elected, he rolls back all the changes.

You continue to decline.

Your system does not allow any of the reforms you listed.

I never claime to oppose the senate reform. Tha's one of the feew things Renzi is doing right, however he isn't doing it out of self interest. In it's current form it would greatly favor PD which would become much more powerful.
It's the same as what Berlusconi did in the past and people screamed fascism. Kind of hypocritical to see them being ok with it if Renzi is the one doing it.
>And you are criticizing the stability with zero growth.
Yes I am. Short term stability in the job market means jackshit if you are unwilling to tackle the underlying problems of the entire system since you don't want to lose consesus.
And people wonder why PD is losing to M5s

Are you kidding me?
This is the current situation at the parliament.
How many fucking votes do Renzi needs to change the law?
Does he need over 100% of the parliament before he can start doing good stuff?

>I never claime to oppose the senate reform

That's what the goddamn start is and has to be. Whatever he does or anyone else does means jack shit until that happens.

Oh yes, I'm not denying its self-interest, but it is also hugely of your own interest.

>Yes I am. Short term stability in the job market means jackshit if you are unwilling to tackle the underlying problems of the entire system since you don't want to lose consesus.

I'd take that until a senate reform passes, but hey, let's elect lega nord on the promise that they'll tackle all those problem and bring about a massive amount of growth, clearly.

>And people wonder why PD is losing to M5s

I know why, Italians aren't terribly clever, but it's still sometimes baffling. M5S has proven to be incompetent, all its mayors have failed and it continues to offer nothing past FUCK THE SYSTEM.

Protest votes everywhere around the world will go high, but they never actually get into power. Certainly not only on the "protest" part.

>Your system does not allow any of the reforms you listed.
It does, even though it's a very slow system.
Yes we need to thin down on our political machine, we can all agree on this, left, right or center.
I only find it hilarious that when Berlusconi tried to concentrate more power in his hands (because that's what we are talking about. Less "politics" = more concentrated power = less checks and balances) people screamed fascism at the top of their lungs.
Why is it fascism only when one side does it? Kinda weird if you ask me

No, he needs a senate reform. Then he can move on to a proper judicial reform.

Hence the constitutional reform.

>people screamed fascism at the top of their lungs

I also find that hilarious and further proof of the low mental capacity of italians in general.

>It does, even though it's a very slow system.

Oh, yes, it allows the reforms. They can happen. Theoretically.

Practically it denies any chance whatsoever of reform.

>I know why, Italians aren't terribly clever, but it's still sometimes baffling. M5S has proven to be incompetent
Or maybe it's because after people saw so much critic of "the fascist right" that we previously had from our media and they realise that our "tolerant left" offers the same exact platform with the same goals and the same long term vision, they vote for someone else?

So you want a dictatorship of one party every 5 years and every one else just look at theme while they do whatever they want without opposition or dialogue?

Also the right was massively incompetent so it's a testament to stupidity that things had to go so far with them.

And hey, I get the protest vote.

I just fail to get it when it means actually voting them IN POWER.

Nah, I prefer no one having any power to do anything and everything being pointless, with the system being nothing more than free careers and opportunities for corruption so that every 5 years you vote for the dude who says "fuck the system" then 5 years later the next dude says "fuck the system" meaning previous dude.

And everything keeps repeating itself in your comfy little world that you can't seem to leave until the only people left in Italy are tourists.

I'm not an M5s voter btw. I know full well that their party is mostly a protest party.
But I fully understand the support they get. Politicians who constantly shit on the opposition for years, to the point of indoctrination by the media, and do the exact same things and are just as "un-transparent", cannot expect a different outcome.
Our left worked so hard on demonizing Berlusconi (when in fact most of their ideas are exactly the same) that it's no wonder if they lose when they act like him.
M5s is the consequence of our left's work in the past 20 years, now the have to deal with what they have created and might get swallowed by their own creation

>Also the right was massively incompetent
Not denying that. In fact talking about "left" and "right" is quite ludicrous in this day and age

The system isn't working because people are voting for retarded parties like PD and Forza Italia, it has nothing to do with how the parliament works, the problems are the parties.

The problem is that nobody, no matter the party, nobody involved in politic in this country knows or cares how to do his job. Everyone is there to take care of their own interest, no exception.

Expect those who return almost everything they earn and go away after two mandates.

>fuck le system everyone is shit vote the guy who says it like it is
>remove parties we'd totally be better ruling ourselves, the politicians are aliens and are a one-off, if we remove them all we'd never see anything as bad ever again
>doesn't matter that the names change every once in a while but they seem to stay the same

And the wheel keeps turning...

Afraid of the new?

Renzi was new.

Berlusconi was new.

New isn't necessarily good, user.

But you keep on believing that new is good, youth is a quality for ruling and all that! Good on you!

You can't deny that the vast majority of political parties are in it for their own gain first rather than to serve the country.
This is why I want nationalism, not in the sense of hating others and waging war on them, but in the sense of recreating a "social tissue" that makes us act in our collective interest rather than our own greed.
Of course as long as we have mass immigration and shitflinging on tv and the press we will never get there.
The problem runs much deeper than parliments or parties, it's a problem in our society and how we identify in it.

>it's a problem in our society and how we identify in it

And you're only deepening it by pushing the "fuck the system" rhetoric as a basis for everything.

But how many bombings has Italy had in the last year?
Also Belgium the country which didn't have a government for three years
The country which is divided in so many micro departments it can't function properly making fun of another country is laughable

You have a weird idea of new, for you new is just the leader of the party, but this time the new is a different way to make politics.
I can see why you are so disoriented, it's because the last time there was a change like this was during Marxism.
What you don't understand is that what are you talking about is not a party like Podemos, but a movement with an ideology.

In an ideal world politicians should do their job literally for free, I would only give them refunds for travel, food and accomodation. Because as it is now, having a seat in any political institution means winning the lottery, a lottery payed by taxpayers to several thousands of parasites (including local governments.)

to be fair the current system is only encouraging individualism. This is especially true of our schooling system.

We have two paths as a society: we either struggle to create a collective identity, something that we never did (we made Italy, now we need to make the Italians t. Massimo d'Azeglio) and I honestly don't think it's possible with many of the current policies of our government, which tend to radicalize the various different points of view instead of reconciling them.
OR
we become a society like the US: complete individualism, no identity, no culture, etc.

I would rather have the first one and if it means tearing down evything and then rebuilding so be it

Who's their 30 year old psychopath candidate?

Both Italy and France live off Germany's back. Here's how this works.

Italy and France each have a 'secret' option to print 500 billion euros per year to finance their government. That's more money than the german federal budget for 80 million germans has.

Italians and french then use this fiat money to buy german export goods.

Germany receives no freshly printed money from the ECB whatsoever. They have to finance themself entirely on their own. The germans indirectly pay for this insanity through inflation. German wages havent been adjusted to the rampant inflation in 25 years. The french media mock the german workers as the 'chinese of europe'.

EU needs to implode big time, most importantly, the euro needs to go.

Politics prevents us from having clean slate so we have to be political first to not be political later. I don't like this borderline nihilism some reactionaries have. They don't like touching politics and ideology because its modern yet we can't escape to a past before politics/ideology without having a politics and ideology.

Honestly the thing that scare me the most about M5S are their supporters/voters and journalists who side with them (like journalists at il Fatto).

They all looks like mindless zombies to me, and the "journalists" would have made Goebbels proud.

>But how many bombings has Italy had in the last year?
>Also Belgium the country which didn't have a government for three years
>The country which is divided in so many micro departments it can't function properly making fun of another country is laughable

Belgium is a pathetic country with a horrible political system and is a complete and utter joke.

>a different way to make politics
>a movement with an ideology

>an actual M5S shill

Holy lel, come on, i want to hear it, what actual credibility does M5S offer?

But that has already been tried in about 20 countries and failed.

What makes you think the 21st try will succeed and not catastrophically fuck your country up?

I'd say the biggest problem of M5s, but fundamentally of all big parties in Italy, is the fundamental lack of a real ideological background behind what they are doing or thinking of doing, the only real thing that seems to keep them together is the willingness to be different from the established political landscape, which is a good thing, but far from being enough, plus a very vague general leftist background given by the bulk of their voters.

There isn't any real substance behind the movement besides the idea of doing things differently as a principle, which doesn't get you far.

Luigi Di Maio, 27 years old.
He's actual Vice-President of the Chamber of Deputies.

Sorry I just read through the thread and realized you are Italian
Good thread though learning a lot about Italy

>Italians and french then use this fiat money to buy german export goods.
and how does this exactly make us live on your back, faggot? It's a way to favor your idustry while destroying our own domestic industry.
Let's remove this EU crap so we can finally rebuild this country
Such as? I don't see how creating a national identity damaged countries such as Japan or China

>Holy lel, come on, i want to hear it, what actual credibility does M5S offer?

They aren't hiding anything, it's all online.
There's no more credibility than this.
Can you name a party that does this too?

The EU is falling Juncker, get used to it.

The basis of forming a cultural identity of individualism is pretty fucking simple - in a country that offers so many benefits (weather, nature, food, fairly beautiful women) one turns to the outside and tends to disregard society and collective identity.

This is true for all southern states.

Of course, what I said is horribly simple and doesn't capture it in the fullest, but it's the best I can do to summarize it in a post.

For the most part though, it is impossible to create a collective identity. SO many countries attempted this during communism - nationalistic ideas were forced upon people, some who denied them were literally killed and a WHOLE generation was indoctrinated to the extreme with these ideas in order to do what you want.

What was the result?

As soon as communism fell and the secret police no longer enforced this, 80% of former communists declared themselves pure democrats. And they reverted back to individualism immediately.

No my friend, that experiment has failed. However, it proved one thing. A thing that is unpopular and would get me lynched if I ever voiced it. You see, communism is a failed ideology. However, somehow, it fared pretty well in the east, compared to democracy. This baffling outcome was the result of its dictatorship, whereupon ALL the individualism was concentrated in a very small clique and they were already given ultimate power - so politics wasn't exactly a road to success. Oh, sure, you fought tooth and nail to get into the communist party, but being incompetent and corrupt got you thrown in jail, because the elite didn't need your stupid ass to stay in power - they'd stay anyway.

What that experiment proved is that all us southerners and westerners with our horrible individualism and such have only one road - dictatorship.

That'd never happen, but it doesn't stop it from being a very unpleasant truth.

Nothing I said iabove has any relation whatsoever to italian politics or our discussion to it.

>damaged countries such as Japan or China

China is literally a hellhole.

>They aren't hiding anything, it's all online.
>There's no more credibility than this.

Being utterly and horribly shit and incompetent is not compensated by being open and honest my friend.

Nor does being open in any way compensate for current fuck-ups and fucking up any chance of actual action.

>Being utterly and horribly shit and incompetent

when did this happened?

Yeah they don't hide anything, thats why Pizzarotti and Nogarin are now in prosecutors' hands. Top kek.

We know about that.

I don't think we mean the same with "individualism".
I'm not against free enterprise, or advocate wealth redistribution. As I said we need to encourage private enterprise amongst the Italian people, something which is so far not possible. I'd say This doesn't make me an admirer of communism, far from it.
As for dictatorship becoming more and more inevitable I agree. We regard our rights as God given and think no one can take them from us. History is mostly cyclical. Republics become authoritarian empires, which then fall, balkinize and become countries again only to repeat the process

Bong here, can someone here tl;Dr me some of the parties/people being discussed ITT?

>China is literally a hellhole.
depends fro mthe point of view. I know many Chinese exchange students and they are all very happy about China, despite it being more authoritarian than the West, since they managed to create a collective Chinese identity.
This is something we should strive for in the West as well, and something I hope the EU would become, a sort of pan European nationalism. Unfortunately it turned out very differently

>We have two paths as a society: we either struggle to create a collective identity, something that we never did (we made Italy, now we need to make the Italians t. Massimo d'Azeglio) and I honestly don't think it's possible with many of the current policies of our government, which tend to radicalize the various different points of view instead of reconciling them.

You such naive, we are a nation that was created by force only 156 years ago, do you really thinks we are italians? We are Piemontesi, Veneti, Emiliani, Campani, Calabresi, Siciliani, ecc..., there's no such things as Italians, neither italian culture, only in the mind of the rertarded intellectuals. Prima ce lo mettiamo in testa meglio รจ per il bene di tutti noi.

>PD: center left, pro EU, current leading party
>PDL or whatever it's called now: center right but very similar to PD, pro EU but anti Merkel, Berlusconi's party
>M5s: populist leftwing party. Very populist to the point of not having a coherent position on many issues, such as immigration
>Lega Nord: in coalition with PDL but progressively distanciating themselves from them. Right wing populist party, but at least they have some clear opinions on the EU, Euro, immigration and so on
There are many others but they aren't that relevant

That's exactly what I said. We either manage to unite as not only a geographical identity, but also as a people or we balkanize and we will be forever someone else's bitches

The only "relevant" one you have not mention here is Sinistra Italiana/Possibile: commies, progressives, feminists, pro-europe, pro-globalization, no-borders, immigrant lovers.

>we balkanize and we will be forever someone else's bitches
Kek we're USA and Europe's bitches already, did you already forget the 113 military Nato-USA bases in our territory?

Never

M5S has proven its ability to rule effectively and it has no fuck-ups nor any obvious proof of corruption :^)

I'm talking about the mentality, user. It's the overwhelming mentality, that hardcore individualism that fucks all southern states over.

>pan European nationalism

Oh, you mean like pan-slavism and the USSR? You know, those places where what you wanted happened and as soon as the police enforcing it disappeared they started slaughtering each other and hating each other and separating into the tiniest pieces possible?

Oh right
So should we not strive to be a bit more indipendent?
>Oh, you mean like pan-slavism and the USSR?
No, it's different. We are at a point were individual European cultures are still present but are not alien or hostile to eachother. If the EU really wanted to create a USE it would be easily able to do so, by presenting mass immigration, terrorism and foreign powers as a threat to the population, and we would be far more likely to willingly give up sovereignity and collaborate.

>Never
>M5S has proven its ability to rule effectively and it has no fuck-ups nor any obvious proof of corruption :^)

Since you didn't pointed to a single case, I assume that you agree with me.
I hope that Belgium will have his M5S soon.

>Since you didn't pointed to a single case, I assume that you agree with me.

Brilliant argument 10/10 I'm sure you can handle Rome and its 13 billion euros of debt after what I just heard.

Rome is the capital, it could have 100 billions of debt, they will always find a way to save it.

The parliament is there too, so it's not like the mayor is alone.

>they will always find a way to save it.

Given M5S track record and your in-depth argument I am confident they will fix it.

I am now officially a grillino.

I'd still like to see one of this fuck ups that you keep mentioning but always fail to identify.

And I'd like to see any amount of proof whatsoever that M5S is not incompetent as hell and the absolute same crap as anyone else, but you can't always have what you want.

Here's where you fail, it's all online, for example here there are the data from the city of Parma: comune.parma.it/comune/porteaperte/conti.aspx

Do you have something else to say?

So you're saying they're incompetent without an actual case of incompetency? Fucking retard.

The euro was easily one of the most retarded concepts ever thought up. The convenience of a common currency with respect to travel is in no way comparable to the fuckery it inflicts on governments' fiscal policies.

If all countries who adopted the euro had a similarly structured economy of equal size and strength then it may have been passable but the reality is that the gulf between countries like Germany's economy and a place like Spain makes the euro completely unworkable.

That's right. I don't even understand how such an idea could have passed through. My mind cannot comprehend it.

Basically, the euro and current economic policies in Europe are good for the banking sectors and the very rich and detrimental to everyone else, all countries included/