So my wife and I were watching Star Trek Deep Space 9 last night...

So my wife and I were watching Star Trek Deep Space 9 last night, and she brought up an interesting question that I couldn't really answer:

Why is complicated space politics intriguing in Star Trek, but boring and unengaging in the Star Wars Prequels? My initial thought was that Star Wars is supposed to be a fun adventure like Indiana Jones, and explaining the minutiae of politics in that kind of film is terrible, but I wonder if the politics could have been simplified and made more exciting.

What do you think? Why doesn't the political drama work in the Star Wars Prequels?

Trek layers Interstellar politics into a season worth of build up. The gradual evolution of Bajor's internal power struggles happen across multiple seasons, in between other events.

In the prequels you get a massive expository dump about what should be an incredibly complex issue, crammed in to a trio of films that are already trying to do too much with what time they have.

Perhaps, if they had approached these issues in a tv format, or with even a modicum of intrigue, they might have worked as plot points. But as it stands, they were just one of the many layers of bullshit that the prequels offered us up.

I wonder if it could have been made exciting without simplifying it like the OT did. In Star Wars the Empire is just bad, the rebels are good, that's all you need to know. It seems like Lucas was trying to make things more blurry, but it just fell on its face and was really embarrassing

It would certainly be refreshing to explore the not so evil parts of the Empire and not so good parts of the Rebellion, but with Disney at the helm I can't see that happening any time soon.

Did you not see rogue One or you just don't remember it?

Yeah they really did a pretty shitty job of that in Rogue One unfortunately. But maybe RLM is right, it may be that Star Wars is just extremely limited in the kind of stories you can tell.

When the rebels ambush those Stormtroopers in Rogue One and the protagonists are fighting both sides it's supposed to be seen as morally gray and complicated fog of war, but IMO it just comes off as goofy because Stormtroopers say things like "after them!" and bonk their heads in door frames in the original movies.

Where exactly was the part where the Empire were anything other than cookie-cutter villains?

And Saw whatever would have been a great example of an extremist arm of the Rebellion, if they hadn't gone through pains to make us aware that he "left the rebellion".

star trek at its peak always had something to say about real life

star wars never did, which is fine during the action, comedy and fantasy, but a serious flaw in political scenes

sure there are superficial allegories here and there, but nothing particularly well thought out. it's pure fantasy as far as I'm concerned

also the extended format helps star trek a lot

because in star wars its shittily written, and has very little to do with the setting.

Fantasy still has stuff to say about real life, it just doesn't try to parallel itself to our world as much as sci fi does

When you say there's politics in Star Trek, it means there are government factions with expressed motives which change as the needs of their peoples change, this information is usually conveyed to the audience by an alien faction doing something to the protagonists, who then have to work out what happened and why, and what this means to Federation / X-ation relations.

When there's politics in Star Wars, you literally watch a senate meeting about filing an official protest over a blockade over trade sanctions. Nobody wants to see that, you can't make that entertaining short of having a gunbattle erupt on the chamber floor.

I think Lucas just doesn't know how to write political intrigue.

oh, no I agree, just not star wars. I should have worded that differently.

"killing innocent people is bad" is about the most I get out of star wars

But I mean couldn't you argue that Star Trek goes over the same kind of details?

Like what about Unification, where Picard and crew find out about the Romulan plot to launch a surprise attack on the federation by using Spock as cover saying it's a peace convoy? You have the same kind of setup, the federation deploys a blockade, the Romulans try to run the blockade and are discovered, they retreat. Actually there's no action at all but it's still tense as fuck because the stakes are high.

So why is the same blockade run totally boring in Star Wars? I wonder if it has more to do with the characters than anything else. Everyone in episode 1 is so monotone and dead pan you just can't relate to any of these joyless assholes

>having a gun battle erupt on the chamber floor
BRRRAPP BRRRAP I AM HERCULES MULLIGAN

At this point it probably has more to do with the background. Romulans and The Federation have history and culture, both with conflicting moral ideologies. Star Wars was two weird looking aliens and an army of drone-bots vs. Fish people we barely see and the queen of naboo.

>But I mean couldn't you argue that Star Trek goes over the same kind of details?
It does, but it does it in a much better and more exciting way, even without any action at all, as you say.

Unification is a great example: It takes place from the Enterprises' perspective: one of their diplomats has gone missing and they don't know why, so they have to investigate it, evidence suggests he's on Romulus so they have to go undercover in enemy territory to locate him and when they make contact, they realise what Spock was up to and try and help him, but then, betrayal! etc, etc,

It was about politics but there were no meetings of the Romulan senate to discuss it preceded 5 minute scenes where Picard and Spock sit and talk about what they think is likely to happen and which senators will backstab each other and why. It's "show, don't tell" basically.

Star Wars is pulp space adventure inspired by Lensman and Flash Gordon where action and wonder take precedent. Star Trek was always political and about diplomacy and shit .

>show don't tell
This. It's the biggest reason the Prequels failed as films. The majority of the runtime is dedicated to talking about what happened, what is happening, or what is going to happen while walking down hallways or standing in conference rooms.

Could Star Wars ever be something more?

After seeing Rogue One I really don't think so.

Damn this is a great thread, good job Sup Forums.

"Jim, you killed it." - Doctor Mickey

It's not an issue of if it could, but if it should.

Star Wars original trilogy is the best.
Star Trek TV shows are also excellent.
New Star Wars Movies are pretty bad.
Star Trek movies are fucking shitty.
Star Wars TV shows are incredibly shitty to the point of barely being watchable.

In 1995 I would have told you that Star Wars is the superior franchise. Thanks to George Luca's hard work, they two are now roughly equal.

>Why is complicated space politics intriguing in Star Trek, but boring and unengaging in the Star Wars Prequels?

Because Star Trek aims at an adult or maybe teenage demographic while Star Wars is trying to make movies that tell the backstory for the older fans while trying to entertain young children with shit like 24 minutes of podracing.

>Star Trek movies are fucking shitty.
Except The Motion Picture, Wrath of Khan, The Voyage Home, The Undiscovered Country and First Contact

star trek has a far far more interesting universe and set up.

everything outside of the galactic civil war in star wars fucking sucks. thats why they specifically avoid the politics in TFA. no one cares, its boring and uninteresting. i think part of the problem with it is that its a galaxy far far away a long time ago, so no earth, no connection, nothing.

And Galaxy Quest and Master & Commander.

>When there's politics in Star Wars, you literally watch a senate meeting about filing an official protest over a blockade over trade sanctions.

I had always interpreted those scenes as not being about the political issue itself, so much as a establishing that the government of the republic wasn't functional anymore. If they had played their cards right they could have made palpatine something of a heroic reformer who makes things work again. But instead they went with evil space hitler.

With Netflix I get a very obvious choice. I can watch 2 or 3 episodes of a Trek variant or one movie. I'm always happier with the episodes.

That was definitely the purpose of the scene but it's not how they should have handled it in a Star Wars film

>Princess Amidala begs the Jedi council to send a Jedi Master to investigate what's going on on Naboo as the Senate refused (off-screen)
Queue Yoda deliberating then sending Obi Wan off to do something. Bang, done, get back to the action now.

>voyage home better than search for spock
It was fun, but it wasnt like the others

Star Trek is about dealing with contemporary moral and political issues in what is essentially a parallel universe

Star Wars is a classical heroic adventure story

They're just different franchises designed to tell different stories

>but it wasnt like the others
So?

Agreed, I don't think it should

No Search for Spock man??

>The Motion Picture
>Not shitty
Final Frontier was better than that garbage

Dude 1995 was peak Trek, it would have been a very fierce debate then.

I really, really want to like Search for Spock, every scene is perfect ... except all of the scenes with the stupid mute child Spock, which is a lot of the film. It's so obvious what's going and Spock moaning and writhing every 5 minutes adds nothing and gets so tiring my brain always tunes out before the finale

Too hard Sci-fi for you, plebboy?

The Motion Picture was the best of all the Trek films, no contest

>hard Sci-fi
I don't think that you know what this means.

Wut. Its one of the best examples of classic scifi on cinema. The 2001 style pans are outdated but everything about it - exploring and overcoming the unknown enemy they cant beat with force but with wit - is great filmmaking

You're comparing visually seeing the crew of one space ship trying (and failing) to run a blockade with the crews of the lockade ships chasing what could potentially just be sensor ghosts and pumping technobabble beams at said sensor ghosts in hopes of decloaking a romulan ship... to a scene that takes place in a really big senate building and people just talking about the blockade and filing paperwork about the blockades.

The difference between trek and wars in this case is, fundamentally, in showing and telling.

But then again, even when the prequels tried to show, the effects was diminished greatly by utter incompetence.

It doesnt stand well on its own since its a direct sequel, so a lot of people dont like it i guess.
However the events are quite essential to the evolution of the characters, and it has good direction and script

From a tos movie progression standpoint VH isnt actually necessary to watch - its a light hearted digression actually.
Its fun but whimsical, i dont actually see anything special about it except that its fun and totally un-tos like

It's still the third part in a trilogy that starts with the wrath of khan. So if you've watched the first two it's a nice light-hearted conclusion

>Why is complicated space politics intriguing in Star Trek, but boring and unengaging in the Star Wars Prequels?
Because George Lucas wrote the star wars prequels.

Because Trek actually develops the cultures of the various factions, so large scale political developments actually mean something to the viewer.

Nah bro you got a typo

2>4>6>8>3>>>> all the others

The new one with a returning Thor is gonna be awful. I noticed he has dropped a lot of mass already to play Kirk Sr again. Was hoping he would stay roided up and Pine could be all 'dad why are you 90% muscle now when in pics you were skinny?'

I thought the political turmoil in the prequels were great. A good basis for the Clone Wars. Also gives the Star Wars universe a bit more depth.

>I thought the political turmoil in the prequels were great. A good basis for the Clone Wars. Also gives the Star Wars universe a bit more depth.

Bait

I have no idea if Lucas intended this, but I did enjoy seeing the Jedi become incompetent/corrupt/lazy. It kinda shows how the republic basically had this coming for them

Because one is a serial tv show and the other is a series of movies.

What about the spic pilot gunning down the informant, Galen's assassination and the danger close bombing?

>Why doesn't the political drama work in the Star Wars Prequels?

Because it's written horribly in the Prequels.

>And Galaxy Quest and Master & Commander.

The two best Star Trek films.

The fucking Mandolorian and Jedi Civil Wars were more interesting than the fucking Clone Wars

It could have worked if George hadn't tried for such a grand story. Anakin should have never been a kid, he should have already known qui gon and obi wan at the start, and he should have been from naboo.

The first movie could've focused on qui gon getting murdered by a sith, maul dooku and grevious combined, which could've in some way led up to the clone wars beginning at the end of the first movie.