You are alive, so you will always have the chance to be happy

>You are alive, so you will always have the chance to be happy.
>As long as the sun, and the moon, and the earth exist, everything will be alright.

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not

We might be alright without the Moon. Looks aesthetic as fuck tho, I'd miss it.

>We might be alright without the Moon.
amerifat eduction at it again

Reminder that there is nothing wrong with accepting instrumentality

>be alright without the moon
please think before you post

>we might be alright without the moon

The moon has an effect on the tides, the sea would go crazy without it.

What does the moon even do except the tides? Now that we have boats with engines tides literally don't matter. It'd just be a little bit darker at night.

This. Instrumentality is immortality. Life is a series of meaningless events always ending with the same tragedy.

>Now that we have boats with engines tides literally don't matter. It'd just be a little bit darker at night.
(You)

>Jerks off to her comatose body
What did they mean by this?

Dis nigga serious? o:

Shinji literally explains what he meant by it

THE MOON IS A BIG FLOATY EGG WAITING TO HATCH

Ok, so seasons aren't as tidy as they used to be. Big deal.

>Be NERV
>create genius convoluted plan
>excecute it almost perfectly
>12 year old child is instrumental to the plan
>condition him to hate himself and have every reason to forgo his individuality
>decides against it anyway
JUST

In all honesty though instrumentality is retarded. Its actual suicide- individuality is what makes us concious- able to percieve happiness or contentment. Instrumentality strips all of that away, theres no individual, just a collective mass of conciousness- who the fuck would want that
I need to watch EOE again

Retard heres your (you)
The tides preserve a multitude of marine ecosystems, which would in turn destroy most other ecosystems on earth

>who the fuck would want that
People who realize that consciousness is but a fleeting dream in the vastness of time and space. Instrumentality sucks but it beats growing old and then turning into nothing.

Denying instrumentality is the biggest pleb move an individual could make

They were upstaged by the mom of said kid, who's happy chilling as the symbol of humanity forever.

>accepting instrumentality
most normie move you could make

It's slowing the earth's rotation, gradually making our days longer

But it's also getting further away over time, so its gravitational influence will get less and less

That was NOT Shinji's character, the writing was notably worse in EoE than in the original series, and I assume that part was simply written in for shock effect.
Shiji was built the entire series to be indecisive, cowardly, nervous, and completely unconfident. He obsessed over the lives of others, and things like Mitsato's sex life intrigued him, and at the same time made him feel sick.

Shinji would never masturbate to comatose Asuka. He'd probably think about it, might even convince himself he's going to do it, but he'd look at Asuka, feel sick, and ultimately give up. He wouldn't feel worthy enough even to have her unconscious.

And that line "I'm so fucked up," was so far out of character I hate thinking about it. Shinji, while generating many of his problems himself, is intrinsically forced to blame other people or the world itself. He runs from literally every negative emotion, figuratively or even literally at some points in the show. He would not realize something (he wouldn't even fucking do in the first place) he does as fucked up, he'd cry, think about something else, run away, scream, he doesn't face things head on. He copes by ignoring problems until they go away.

EoE was very nice, but complete garbage compared to NGE. I could get into how perfectly NGE handled literally everything compared to EoE, but that would go on forever. Again, EoE was genuinely beautiful, but my major complaints will always be that it's very wannabe NGE. It substitutes shock effect and morbid humor for the aptly difficult-to-replicate writing that made NGE famous.

It was all the pent-up aggression she had toward Asuka and it turned into sexual.

How does it beat that? Its worse than oblivion- its life without thought or sentient experience
Like the film states, living gives the oppourtunity for happiness and individual experience, the most valuable things humans can perceive comes from that

The Moon is important but not THAT important.

>Instrumentality sucks but it beats growing old and then turning into nothing.

It all returns to nothing in the end though, user

Better to be a bit of stardust that woke up, gazed at your origins, and then went back to sleep, but your mileage may vary.

Reminder that only pussy cuckboys would not reject instrumentality. You need to take the bad to have the good

Instrumentality isn't actual suicide. At all. It's a perfect oneness with an entire species. It is consciousness. Shinji fucked instrumentality because he wanted to return to a life of definition and restriction. It was hinted at in the entire series Shinji needed someone to tell him what to do - how to feel. He couldn't stand instrumentality because it was perfect freedom, nobody would tell him how to feel happy, nobody would tell him how to feel sad. That scene where Shinji is creating his own world describes it perfectly. He had a world of perfect freedom. A world unrestricted. Unbound. But he needed someone to lead him. He couldn't handle perfect freedom. There was nothing for him to do. So he began with a line, descending into comfortable, familiar territory.

>Having your physical form explode
>Your soul trapped in a fucking prison in a gigantic 14 year old
>Trillions of people crying out in ecstasy constantly
>Except you're in your personal paradise with everyone
>But you're actually alone
Sounds pretty fuckin bad to me. I think that most people in the world would redirect to the exit.
What makes a good day good?

>12 year old child is instrumental to the plan

Was he? He wasn't planned to be the center of instrumentality as far as I know.

I really liked EoE, it's probably my favorite Anime movie after GitS, but I completely agree that Shinji acts very out of character at times. I think the masturbating sequence was a sleight that Anno threw at his fans for overly sexualizing his characters.

I think that EoE, despite being a more bleak movie on the whole, does end up having a happier ending, where Shinji learns to try and be a confident individual instead of rejecting the bittersweet experience of the human condition (which is what Instrumentality was - a rejection)

> Perfect oneness with your entire species.

No way I'm going to trust that for very long though. I'd be Kirk in Star Trek V, screaming how my fuck ups tell my story as much as my successes.

Yeah, I mean you sure know better about Shinji than fucking Hideaki Anno himself. I really wonder why you didn't write EoE.

>Shinji is a coward

Masturbating to a comatosed body is something a coward would do. Especially when you have the hots for a woman.

Humans will survive without the moon, you are right.

The days will become shorters and the sea calmer, a lot of marine life will eventually extinguish because they depend on tides to travel and reproduce. But humans will just have to adjust to that and survive.

Besides, without the moon it will be more probable that a meteor hit us and maybe the axis of the earth will change affecting out weather, but nothing that will kill us.

Retard.
If moon's gravity wasn't constantly slingshotting meteorites away from us, we'd be full of holes.

Really? I'd rather forgo personal experience to be together forever with humanity and consciousness. It was literally a return to God, or the Garden of Eden. We lose knowledge (or in this case individual consciousness) for a oneness, with ourselves and with God.

Instrumentality seems incredibly undesirable, but simply because it would be the end to everything that makes us human. Incompleteness especially. Humans have always longed, searched, for nothing in particular, but always moving, looking for more. Instrumentality is the end of incompleteness. Which seems terrible from the perspective that there would be no point to living anymore, nothing left to complete us, but when you think about it, would you rather search endlessly for an unsatisfying end, or achieve that end in an unsatisfying way? Instrumentality sought to finish the goal started at the birth of humanity. To go against it is simply to show a desire to toil further in the search for an answer that isn't there.

>12

ACHTUOOLLY he was 14

Instrumentality is the ultimate dependence on other people though. Your entire experience gets defined by the collective. You lose yourself in the masses.
Shinji ultimately fights against his own nature to go with the flow. He could have easily faded away into the tang losing all sense of self and never had to worry about anything again.

> Would you rather search endlessly for an unsatisfying end?

Yes.

>Mitsato's sex life

wut?

Fucking retards ITT. Instrumentality is clearly the way to go. What kind of cuck would deny it? Grow up.

anno is not a retarded who lucked out is my favorite meme

That's a beautiful way to dodge criticism.
>It's not out of character because I created him to be whatever I want
I admit Anno has the liberty to make Shinji into anything he wants, but I believe Anno writing NGE has a better image of Shinji than Anno writing EoE, which are in fact two different personalities. Somewhere between the two, I think Anno lost a bit of his touch for incredibly realistic, almost alive characters, in exchange for maybe a broader message, or a more direct path to his goal.

No, Shinji is far more of a coward than that, is what I'm trying to point out. Shinji doesn't feel like he deserves to masturbate to her, even comatose. She practically has to rape him to get him to kiss her, to great negative effect afterwards. Shinji is, and always will be the outsider in his mind. The observer. Kissing Asuka, Fucking her, these are things he might think about, but absolutely never plans on actually doing.

Then I guess you're more Shinji than Gendou

It's been a while since I watched NGE, but I recall a scene during Shinji's tackle with Instrumentality where Misato opens up to herself objectively about why she has sex and relationships in an overall negative way. You could tell it was something that effected Shinji greatly, why else would it show up when he was deconstructing the personalities of those closest to him?

>Really? I'd rather forgo personal experience to be together forever with humanity and consciousness. It was literally a return to God, or the Garden of Eden. We lose knowledge (or in this case individual consciousness) for a oneness, with ourselves and with God.

It's not communion with god though.
The entire point of the seeds of Life and Knowledge was that they were incompatible.
By undergoing instrumentality, we stopped being Knowledge-derived and became Life-derived which failed our ultimate purpose. The precursors seeded life to see which ultimately can advance further. Life-derived lifeforms like the Angels which were given ultimate power but so little consciousness and individuality that the entire species was coalesced in one being. Knowledge-derived lifeforms like humans were given no power, but they were given infinite potential through the power of individuality and intelligence. The purpose was to test which civilizations would end up reaching the same stage of the precursors which was simultaneously the infinite potential/individuality and the infinite power. Instrumentality was just giving up and joining the other team when the real way to win was figuring out a way to combine these diametrically opposed methods of existence.

That's cool. Maybe one day you guys can tang it up for Nirvana.

Just don't get pissed if some of us prefer to stay on the shore. As the saying goes, "It's not you, it's me."

Im not really clear on whether or not he was planned to be the one who made the decision, its so convoluted that i have no idea
However he was the pilot of eva 01, which was central to instrumentality

Hold on, How was Instrumentality forced evolution if the LCL was the primordial soup of life.

humanity wasn't meant to evolve down that path, the fruit of knowledge that humans were given meant something else was intended for us to become.

instrumentality is just become like angels, which clearly isn't the point otherwise why give angels and humans different fruit

This is a great explanation user, thanks

Ironically I take the opposite position on the endings. I love the ending for NGE because it was by far the most optimistic message in the entire show. I could see how you interpret the ending of EoE to be a step in the right direction, but I find that choking Asuka to death for a third time, fighting bitterly for his individual consciousness, argues more for the idea that Shinji hasn't really grown at all. That now returned to being an individual, he's going to repeat his dull monotonous life, like he had been, and like he's ok to do.

NGE was beautiful. Shinji, after dealing with everyone around him, himself, and instrumentality, finally accepts what it is to be alive, and to be with other people. Like in the Hedgehog's Dilemma, he finally found a position for himself where he wasn't cold anymore. Moving forward, he grows into someone who can accept praise, with confidence, and the Congratulations scene, one of the best scenes in all of tv history, shows Shinji moving forward, now not running from those around him, but embracing them. A mutual relationship where he accepts people will hurt him sometimes, but keep him from the cold. "Congratulations" they all say. Showing how human interaction can be beautiful too. The very last three things say the most

"Thank you, Father"
One of the biggest conflicts in the series was always Shinji against his father's vision for him. In these final moments Shinji realizes this growth, who he is now, his farther was a part of that. A very large part. His father may have hurt him, but he helped him as well. Shinji moves forward.

"Goodbye, Mother."
Another source of bitterness and tension in Shinji and the show was the absence of his mother. In this last scene Shinji comes to grips with the fact that his mother is gone, and instead of clinging to her memory as a way to escape burden and strife, but let's go, and starts becoming someone who can think, act, and be himself.

And to all the children, Congratulations!

See

I wouldn't be, unless you fuck it up for everyone like Shinji

Tbh girls have only been terrible to me and I'm always alone so I'm singing up for this shit like now

Episode 25 was just so hard to watch, none of it made sense to me when i first watched it and it just pulled the rug out under me in terms of the plot, which was pretty engaging

Didn't Shinji give humanity the choice to stay as the tang or reform?

He never specifally said that.

It is implied though right?

Sometimes I feel I read this movie wrong.

Yeah, and most of them chose Tang.

Then again I don't think a horrifying apparition of a naked white teenage girl appearing and running your deepest desire through your head is an ideal way of communicating the consequences of the decision.

The moon is still there at the end, it just has a big bloodstain on it

the writing in this anime was so fucking cringe-inducing

That's why people hate the TV ending so much because it's about growing up and moving forward.

EoE ending is just misery and self loathing.

It was definitely a non-sequitur, and left some of the physical plot to be desired, but I think the last two episodes of NGE were magnificent. It covered so much, so skillfully, and so subtly. My favorite part is how open-ended it left the series. It left a lot of important facets up for interpretation, which is crucial in any real work of art, like the ending would have you believe, there are so many individual viewpoints, so many different takes on being alive and being human, the message of the last episodes can only be built upon and improved until it achieves a mythical level of reverence, only garnered by the interest and inspiration of everyone it effected. EoE provided a more concrete plot, defining lore, but the ending is also left open ended, and done nicely, albiet more dreary than I had hoped.

Exactly. It's incredibly hard to accept change, especially if you've lived with misery for so long. You begin to get accustomed to it, it begins to get comfortable.

I wonder, has anybody tried to finish the last two episodes as full animations? Like, being fan work or Anno himself.

Why did they use the coolest angels at the start? Nothing topped Remial.

Which DVD version should I get of this? Pls give me amazon link

It feels great actually.

To the point where it almost hurts to be happy.

That one that got fucked by Longinus was pretty cool

Torrent the blu ray with english subs and dubs

I agree with you there, but taking into mind another point of yours, that Anno wanted "a more direct path to his goal", it's important in reference to the masturbation scene that we look at how Asuka has developed in Shinji's mind. I think the grueling point of that scene is that Shinji has become so dependent on her he no longer sees her as much of a human being--she's some amalgamation of his longing and self-hatred, which in point is tied directly to a bubbling narcissism that takes the form of pity.
I think Anno knew exactly what he was doing with Shinji's character--having him cross that bridge of objectifying Asuka in the same way many Eva fans were at the time--and it's an explosion of disgust which, like the rest of EoE, takes place in some unreal dream-state where every conceivable foible assumes a destructive place in the characters's deteriorating reality. This opening scene I've always thought is a 'heads-up' sort of, that we're leaving that tension-ridden mode of seeing these characters as pent up objects of want, and seeing what effect their unconscious selves have when acting out their inner thoughts and desires. If there's any phrase that could describe EoE, to me it's "a lack of self-restraint", which both the artistic direction and character interactions embody pretty well.

Shinji is losing his fucking mind by the beginning of EoE.
He has no idea what to do, what's going on, or who to turn to.
He's all alone again, more confused than ever, so he runs to Asuka as his last resort, like a child crying for his mother, hoping to find some form of reaffirmation but she can't help him because she's in a fucking coma. This sends Shinji into a panic and he loses all control. In his desperation he starts masturbating like a mindless beast, pathetically begging for some form of connection.
When it finally dawns on him, what he just did, he runs away to hide from everyone else, cradling himself in a fetal position, where he continues to beg for Asuka to save him, wishing for death.

Why didn't he turn to Misato, his guardian?

she a sloot

The way I imagine instrumentality, and I might be wrong of course, is being in this lucid dream like state of complete peace and understanding, you could try and communicate with others but...that wouldn't work since you ARE the others and the others are you, so it would basically be like having a monologue. Sure it is absolutely peaceful and heartwarming in a way but it really makes it hard for you to distinguish your own thoughts and others' also true happiness can only be obtained if there's separation. I mean that's what they said right?

Life's only worth living because of the hope that people can try and understand each other and love each other.

One thing I don't quite get:
Is instrumentality perceived differently by individuals? I mean Shinji felt at peace but we heard moaning and lewd noises in that one sequence.

You don't get to decide what Shinji would and wouldn't do you dickhole.

What was the point of this scene?

I don't think she'd been home much since Kaji died

I don't, at all, and I'm not saying what Shinji would or wouldn't do.

What I can do, and the only basis for which I am allowed to criticize, is what the writing of the show leads me to believe he would do.
If you think I'm wrong in my speculations, then that's absolutely valid, and you can consider my critique poorly based. I am not a stranger to disagreement.

I don't think it's very fair to say my critique is wrong because I don't get to decide what Shinji would do. Then what would I judge the show on? If I'm only allowed to judge the show on evidence explicitly presented and stated to be true, a vital part of the show, especially one as introspective as NGE, is left untouched.

He lost the courage to face her after Kaji's death. He had no idea what to do or how to deal with such a thing.
So did Misato in a way.

Why is Sup Forums better at discussing anime than Sup Forums

because Evangelion is more /kino/ than 99% of the stuff that is posted on this board.
Not only is it /kino/ it's the most human one of all time, it really covers the themes it does (and there's plenty of them) in a way no art medium has done.

Could i watch that without wating the anime or the other films?

Most boards suck at discussing the subject they're dedicated to.

No it would make absolutely no sense at all
Even with the anime its convoluted

No.
The anime is essentially 26 build up to one of the best things ever created.

Watch NGE(the anime) then EoE(the movie).
The rebuild movies are reboots with a twist.

Laying it on a bit thick here user
Its good, a masterpiece even, but there are better films

Absolutely not
Watch the 26 episode series, it's worth your time

You interpreted it wrong as far as I'm aware. Instrumentality is nothing like our existence. There is no happiness, sadness or even consciousness. there is JUST the soup and it's single consciousness

The rebuilds are shitty anime films in the typical vein of typical shitty anime films
If youre a big fan ot the original you may want to watch them for a couple of scenes that are actually quite well done, and what is essentially an hd remake of the first half of the anime

>it's another sissy anime boys are too scared to post on Sup Forums so they come to Sup Forums

Give examples. I am talking about this exact theme.
Evangelion is the only one that I can think of that shows depression, fear of rejection and human experience and all those stuff the way it does.

but didn't we get a glimpse of instrumentality when Shinji was inside of it with Rei?

youtube.com/watch?v=KxZ01ncJ7qs

The entirety of episode 5 and 6 is instrumentality

you mean...25 and 26 right?