Daily Japanese Thread - DJT #1902

Cornucopia of Resources / Guide
Read the guide before asking questions.
djtguide.neocities.org/

Discuss the process of learning Japanese.

Previous thread:

Other urls found in this thread:

vocaroo.com/i/s1AiL5yrMI8Q
vocaroo.com/i/s0iOmG058sRj
aozora.gr.jp/cards/001383/files/56698_59488.html
jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnlp1994/2/3/2_3_3/_pdf
ipsj.ixsq.nii.ac.jp/ej/?action=repository_uri&item_id=12787&file_id=1&file_no=1
youtube.com/watch?v=KxGRhd_iWuE
librivox.org/search?primary_key=35&search_category=language&search_page=1&search_form=get_results
vocaroo.com/i/s1nm8XrJQyOr
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

描畜生に知りあいなんぞいません
I don't have friends which are cat?

ゴーヤが破裂しちゃった
(´Д`|||) ﾄﾞﾖｰﾝ

Anyone know a good 関西弁 speaking novel?

Goya?

ノンノン
ゴーヤなの

ええなにそれ、ムカみたい。爆発するの?

Vocab audio: vocaroo.com/i/s1AiL5yrMI8Q
Sentence audio: vocaroo.com/i/s0iOmG058sRj

Today is a good day.

バンっ!!

ベベッ

Junichiro Tanizaki
Sasame yuki
aozora.gr.jp/cards/001383/files/56698_59488.html

>細雪
Hey, I recently mined a background character from Log Horizon with that name!

Sometimes I feel like Chinese (and Japanese to an extent, thanks to all the compounds) are just very compressed languages, and the shift from morphemes to syntax (using your terms, I'm no linguist) is more "complete".

While a lot of words in English have more than 3 syllables, you can almost invariably shorten then to 2, at most 3 syllables that are actually relevant to convey the meaning/contour of the word.

Let's give some examples. "Distribution", which I believe to be 4 syllables long. If you slur a lot, you can say something like "sri bushn", two syllables.
United States can become "nytl steiss", two syllables.

Give it an ideographic writing system rather than a phonological one and people will have to rely on what they hear, turning the process of slurring into a feedback loop.
After a few centuries of "English written with ideograms", some other culture with phonological writing would approach the United States and, in an attempt to romanize the language, turn distribution into "shér bîjn" and United States into "naō cènz", because that's what would be left of the original consonants.
I've read superficially about Chinese being full of complex consonant compounds before shifting to tone reliance, but I don't remember where.

おおきに

Good taste in cakes.

You're welcome :)

そんなことよりパスタたべない?

please explain "そんなことより" to me because I'm 100% sure I'm reading this wrong

You want to not eat that even more than not wanting to eat pasta?

Want to not eat pasta even more than not wanting to eat such a thing*

what the fuck friends you're confusing me even more

Bump.
I understand correctly?

if you understand そんなこと and より then the statement reads exactly how you would expect it to

the only possible problem is if you don't understand polarity

You should probably give a bit more context if you want a translation that's clear

このOPイメージは新しいだろう?すきだ、器用だ。

There is a sort of universal equivalent law of exchange for information (which holds for more than just human language, but that aside):

Pragmatics * Semantics * Syntax * Morphology * Phonology * Phonetics = Constant

Similar to how the fundamental unit of information is the bit (with two values). You can't encode more than 1 bit using less than 1 bit. In a similar sense, if you're "compressing"/reducing on the phonology and morphology parts, you have to pay for it by increasing the syntax and semantics levels.

So that's why Japanese can have:

> 少年は少女を愛している
> 少女を少年は愛している

But in English this can only be done with:

> The boy loves the girl.

And changing the word order changes the meaning of the sentence:

> The girl loves the boy.

Japanese thus "pays for"/encodes the information with "more" morphology (strictly speaking, that's what particles do), and can thus afford to have "less" strict syntax.

In a similar sense, this is why they can survive without articles/plurals/conjugation/gender. Compare French:

> "Nous sommes allées"
=> "more than one person, all female, went somewhere"
(Also notice the built-in redundancy, there's no real *need* to say "nous", since "sommes" already encodes this.)

> "We went"
=> "more than one person, ???, went somewhere"

> "行った"
=> "???, ???, went somewhere"

The information will still be somewhere (assuming the sentences come from a paragraph which details the exact same thing), but it's just not encoded right there.

...

漫画なら
「花の応援団」とか「じゃりン子チエ」とか
まあ、いきなり谷崎もなぁ
谷崎なら「卍」やで

>そんなことよりパスタたべない?
そんなことより:(more important than) such a thing
You may think it seems to have literally a meaning like above . However, we use this words to change the topic actually.
そんなことより:By the way: Apart from that: Leaving that aside:On a different subject
そんなことよりパスタたべない?
Anyways, let us eat pasta.

if you want to learn more, come to our thread

Can you understand the difference between agglutinative languages and inflectional languages?
if you want to learn more, come to our thread

It depends on the definition of "word" in the language. Inflectional (actually fusional) will have different forms of a word by adding parts to a stem, while agglutinative just concatenate parts to a word (not a stem). It's not easy to make the distinction clearly. In Japanese you have:

>贈り物・は
>贈り物・の
>贈り物・を
>贈り物・に

While in Latin you would have

>donum
>doni
>donum
>dono

But Japanese is considered agglutinative, and Latin inflected, since in Japanese 贈り物 exists on its own, but the 'don-' "word" in Latin doesn't. There's more to it than that, of course. Simply put, you have the two extremes: analytical and synthetic, and the fusional/agglutinative inbetween.

利口だ*

私「は」君「に」これら「を」最近の研究「から」贈ろう。
Read following
file:///C:/Users/%E6%98%8E%E5%AD%90/Downloads/IPSJ-JNL4003033%20(1).pdf
jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnlp1994/2/3/2_3_3/_pdf

Hello, user.
Can you translate mimetic words?
What does mean わぷ and わぶ

>Read following
>file:///C:/Users/%E6%98%8E%E5%AD%90/Downloads/IPSJ-JNL4003033%20(1).pdf
明子、time to learn how to use a computer

Sorry
ipsj.ixsq.nii.ac.jp/ej/?action=repository_uri&item_id=12787&file_id=1&file_no=1

...

Sorry, forgot about context

ありがとう、でも私の日本語の知識は十分ではないではない学術雑誌を読むために

>そのイメージ
何これ? 「げんき」ですか?

バンプ

...

何て良くて便利に仲間

Yeah, I definitely get what you mean, wrote a huge wall of text similar to that once explaining how different languages are efficient at different aspects of communication. Coincidentally I used the same languages as example, with the addition of Portuguese (which is a little less dependent on pronouns and articles than French).

Focusing more on the "per phoneme information", have you read about Ithkuil?

Like all conlangs, it seems too rigid and 'clean'. 58 phonemes and 7 tones is pretty neat to have extreme short sentences:

>‾üaklaršlá
>‘it is/being a representation of the man-made courses/channels of a river that has dried up’

But it would never work in reality. Humans mumble, stutter, have accents, have to think out their words... All humans have the same "language capability" (in a Chomskian sense) and therefore the same "speed limit" in encoding/decoding information. So you'd have extreme short sentences, but it'd take a long while to speak and understand them. Would undoubtedly make for a funny scene if two people were angry at each other: they'd spend more time mimicking than actually expressing themselves vocally. The act of speaking itself is a form of speaking, which is also important, even before anything meaningful is said.

You disgusting weebs, have you given up yet?

no, I'll die before giving up
unironically

Does it count as giving up if I stopped actively studying since I can already understand Japanese?

ネーヴァ ギヴ アップ!!
youtube.com/watch?v=KxGRhd_iWuE

how many more hours until I get my qt jap gf?

You will never break my Japanese spirit

I believe so. The 猫畜生 is derogatory towards cats, too.

I've given up some free time in order to study Japanese. Is that what you meant?

今だから来ました
this was translated as "i came here cuz i got nothing to do" but i have strange feeling...

Dear Nihonians, I am thinking to migrate from my country, are there any fields in japan that need more employees?

I have a master's in Law and Analytical chemistry.
Bachelor in Philosophy, Agricullture, Green technologies and Biobased engineering.

100% dutch 25 y/o and I am trying to learn Japanese from some shop cleric from japan that lives here.

>今
暇?

oh, thank you

Skilled trades and healthcare

I came across this while searching for dutch audiobooks. I thought I'd share it, not sure if there is anything interesting between it.

librivox.org/search?primary_key=35&search_category=language&search_page=1&search_form=get_results

>テレビじゃありません。
>It isn't a TV.

Is it really "It isn't a TV.", why is it not "There isn't a TV.", or, is it just ambiguous?

I don't care much about the efficiency/feasibility, it's more about the concept of trying to find the most compressed communication form possible, I thought Chinese would end up being far more fast-paced than English because of the phonological shortcuts they've gone through, but I guess tones might make speaking drag just as much in the end.

Interesting to see this chart. Why is it that Japanese lags behind so much? Because it takes longer to be specific? Is the metric based on time or syllables? Getting rid of sonkeigo would probably impact it too.

Now I'm curious about what "information" means in the first place, in an explanation about economic systems, for instance, you will hardly need to discern between number, gender, or temporal information, so wouldn't Japanese be potentially more straight to the point by using simplified grammar?
Now if you're just telling a story about what a few people did, those things come into practice and Japanese would have to go out of its way to specify subject and everything that comes attached to it.

Maybe they sampled several different kinds of subject and made an average. But who's to say which kind of subject is the most important? Maybe a less efficient language (in general) is more efficient at what really matters.

I don't wanna sound relativistic here, I'm just exposing all the possibilities I can think of which might be relevant to how the data is assessed.

To be (exist) is different than to be (to physically stay in a place), which is also different from to be (to temporarily find oneself in a state).

In this case, TVs are inanimate and would take ある as the verb. テレビがない、テレビがありません、or probably テレビなし in your particle-less example, but I don't know Japanese grammar!

It is 100% "It (this/that) isn't a TV."

For "There isn't a TV/There is no TV", you'd say テレビがない/テレビがありません.

Arigatou!

Other than Yotsuba, which I cannot stand, what is a good manga to read for a beginner?

>cleric

I would do a lot of research and visit before deciding to try to migrate to japan... I'm sure there are a lot of options in the EU that are much easier to adjust to, culturally, and that will pay you better with better living conditions.

>which I cannot stand
Fuck off idiot.

Well, I'd like to be part of a non-EU culture, so that leaves me with asia and africa, and with language, I've learnt Hiragana in about 1 week, same as Katakana, working on the most basic Kanji's at the moment, also learning the grammar and some vocabs, and I am not really in it for the money, I just want enough to have a middleclass life.

How about this one?

Speaking of Yotsuba, I've gotten the scans of the first 13 mangos.

But does anyone have an anki deck for the vocab in Yotsuba? I remember people talking about it but I can't find one.

Never mind, I guess the only way to get it was to go through some guys free checkout and put bogus information in the checkout thing.

Seems fun. I'm thinking about doing this after I'm done the last few chapters of Genki 1.

Particles attach to words but aren't considered part of the same "word". They're certainly not inflections.

Japanese is agglutinative because of its prototypical agglutinative verbal morphology.

>tfw 今日は中間試験がある
怖い(´・ω・｀)

What is 入れて doing here and is it はいれて or いれて?

いれて
including, or "if you include"

include 人名や地名によく使われる漢字 in 常用漢字

Thank you.
Another one;
The line with 意味が分かるので kind of confuses me since it's not a conditional. I expected it to read something like "Since even without knowing a kanji's reading you can know its meaning..."
But it's just pure 分かる and not 分かれる so it sounds kinda weird.

your translation is completely correct.
but I can't explain why it is 分かる unless I'm a Japanese linguist

is bing just a meme at this point?
there have been multiple occasions where it just gives me garbage

One last one.
First it's 使われます and then it's 使います.
So "When writing in Japanese you can use Arabic and Roman numerals and you also use the alphabet as with CD, DVD etc."
So I guess it means you don't have to use Arabic or Roman but when talking about stuff like CD, DVD, etc. it's natural to use the loan words?

分かる doesn't have a potential form, I suppose the simplest way to explain it is that the plain verb itself already pertains to the ability to understand something (hence why it's used with the が particle), but like , I don't know the linguistically correct explanation.

Did I say it correctly?

vocaroo.com/i/s1nm8XrJQyOr

That's news to me, thanks.

we don't use 分かれる as potential form of 分かる. I'm just feeling as if 分かる itself has a way of showing possibility. technically 分かる was potential form of 分ける(divide) in the past. to be able to divide things was thus to understand.

婦女暴行=Rape
nice joke

it's perfectly natural.
rather, it is impossible not to use the loan words
but pronounciation and intonation are often strange

Thank you very much.

The study that chart is from is basically completely uncontrolled. Normal sentences were translated into extremely redundant and verbose formal Japanese.

I have read that words like 分かる、曲がる、止まる come from their transitive える counterparts, 分ける, 曲げる, 止める. This makes sense because the える verbs come from the classical 下二段 verbs 分く, 曲ぐ, 止む. Conjugated into the classical passive form (the 未然形 plus the auxiliary verb らる), those become 分けらる, 曲げらる, 止めらる.
分く→分けらる→分かる
曲ぐ→曲げらる→曲がる
止む→止めらる→止まる
This transformation makes sense to me.

But 分かる is different from the others in that it had both a 四段 and 下二段 version in classical Japanese. The passive form of the 四段 version would have been 分か+る, which means that modern 分かる could theoretically come from either word. But the 下二段 theory explains all the other verbs too so it's better.