What was his endgame?

>Saruman gets Frodo and Ring
>kills Aragorn
>locks Gandalf up
>complete control of Theoden
>combined Isengard/Mordor forces occupy Gondor
Now what?

His endgame is pretty obvious.

>Get ring
>Rule world

What's complicated about that?

The "ruling world" part

The ring

If he got a hold of it, he'd become a great terrible power, probably not as powerful as Saruon but, but since Sauron didn't have a body, he would rule over the evil forces of middle earth like a demi-god which wizards almost are already

Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf are all the same species. So I never understood why it was assumed that Saruman couldn't be just as powerful

they were of the same kind, but Sauron was much more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman

Again, there is no reason Saruman couldn't be just as powerful with time.

because hes not the master of the ring, and the entire time the ring would be fighting him to get back to sauron/control him. Now he's probably strong enough to control the ring, but he would never have full control of it like Sauron.

Also, if we're talking about the book universe, by the time of Two Towers, Gandalf said that Sauron knew Saruman wasn't actually his ally anymore, and that they were pretty much enemies at that point. Gimili even says its a pity their allies (gondor and rohan) lie between them, so that they could just beat the shit out of eachother. Gandalf tells him whoever won would be much stronger for it though.
IIRC Saruman loses his powers too, which is why he starts going as "of many colors".

Because Saruon accomplished more: created the rings of power, ruled over a kingdom with millions, had a spirit that lived for thousands of years or more (but so do the other ones)

and neither wizard or anything like them could have stopped Sauron when he was first in power.

same species =/= same power. plus isn't it just similar in species not same?

he just wants a ring, cuz he's jelly of gandalf, who has a ring, despite saruman being the better wizard

so now he wants the best ring

....exactly, and this is why Saruman needed the ring, to ascend into something LIKE Sauron. They just weren't the same thing.

With centuries of ruling with the ring, yeah he could have been as strong as the dark lord, who knows

Balrogs are Maiar like Saruman and Sauron as well, but some of them obviously aren't as strong as others.
And I'm sure Gothmog would have rekt Durin's Bane. Just like Anacalogon would have fucking shrekt Smaug, or Glaurung would have fucked Scatha's shit up.

I just mean that the potential is there.

Would have been cool to see the forces of Mordor take on Isengard. Isengard would have gotten their shit kicked in though. Trolls would tear through the Uruk-Hai.

Sauron was weakened though, any Maiar with the ring would have been more powerful than him.

He basically wanted to rule over everything as a just but mighty lord, not a chaotic evil force like Sauron, bent on destroying, but he wanted to fuel the fires of industry and create, remake Middle Earth in his image. The lesser races who didn't fit into that image can get fucked. sauron wanted to rule for the sake of ruling, he wanted to destroy everything deemed light or beautiful, where as Saruman wanted to revolutionise and put all his cunning and guile to use, to show his real worth.

He's Stalin.

>LOTR threads are now just power level discussions
just fucking kill me f-am

OP here.

Never started this as a DBZ power level thread, I didn't even mention power levels.I assumed this would just act as a catalyst for a comfy lotr thread

Are you new?

OP is being a dense faggot, blame him

I've literally said nothing about power levels are said something dense you uppity faggot

>Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf are all the same species. So I never understood why it was assumed that Saruman couldn't be just as powerful

sorry what? you didn't say anything about power levels? oh okay

>Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf are all the same species. So I never understood why it was assumed that Saruman couldn't be just as powerful

that's like saying justin bieber can beat michael jordan at basketball if he trained real hard cuz they're the same species

No, I didn't you aspie fuck. That would be a valid question for book readers and film watchers alike, since it is true. If you don't want a comfy thread then leave

Idk what has gotten you so assmad, samefag

How do you know that was OP?

LOTR threads used to be full of the good kind of autism.

I think what he meant was that Saruman would not get to the same potential strength as Sauron at his best. IIRC Sauron could never be at his best again after the sinking of Numenor.

In any case, Sauron didn't need the ring anymore. He was going to fuck the world a new asshole regardless. the ring needed to be destroyed before he could do this. Rest of the world just couldn't keep up with Mordor manufacturing I suppose.

Nothing wrong with this thread so far. I made this thread for a comfy lotr thread.

>implying The One Father of All would let any of that happen

Why didnt Mordor produce Uruk-Hai instead of relying on shitty orcs?

Nailed it

Sure you did.

>Why isn't character X is powerful as character Y for whatever reason?

That's you starting a power level thread. Might as well do an eagles thread next

well, more like mordor breeding, at least from the movies humans/elves have significantly higher kill/death ratio when they fight against orcs.

The only advantage mordor has seems to be number

they could produce them faster? Sauron had a army in the hundred thousand, when Saruman had a force a tenth of that. And I think Sauron did have his own brand of Uruk-Hai. Even if not, I think Mordor orcs were their own people at this point, unlike Saruman's bred Uruk-hai. Collections of tribes and shit that came down to Mordor and were tied into a huge horde. Tolkien was a bit inconsistent on what Orcs actually were, so it's hard to say.

Holy shit bud, you are hellbent on derailing this arent you? You can't get off it. Nowhere did OP mention power levels. Fuck off. This is a common question regarding wizards in the LOTR lore

What was the role of Gundabad orcs during the siege of Minis Tirith? Were they there at all?

Derailing it towards what? Okay fine, I'll stop

You guys can talk about which of the Maiar are more powerful in a thread that ISNT about power levels

that was exactly it, Sauron was going to win a war of attrition. The elves were fucking off, and there were battles in the north that Gandalf hinted was going pretty terribly for the dwarves.

Urak-hai just looks big and tough, they all go down in one hit anyway

they were fighting in the north I think. Gandalf mentioned to Gimili that his people are fighting their own battles, so I can only suspect it would be orcs from there.

It was literally only one singular conversation. What in the shit is your actual problem here, kiddo? Do power levels trigger you?

Sauron had his own Uruk-hai types anyways. I can't remember if it's fanwank, but guards of Barad-Dur were supposed to be the best of the best. 10000 strong, which seems like a reference to Persian Immortals.

Uruk Hai seem to be the only orcs worth a damn in the movie-verse though.

I'm enjoying your damage control more.

>Sauron
>Sauronman

what was hackson thinking?

>damage control
Oh, ouck off already with this. I'm not OP and I only see one conversation talking about Saruman's ""power levels"". Why do you keep posting about how much it bothers you?

he either wanted to try and take over himself or be like Sauron was to Morgoth

why didnt the eagles just fly the ring into mordor?

>TEEHEEE D-DAMAGE CONTROL

>Saruman the White is good
>Saurman of Many Colors (rainbow) is evil
really makes you think.

Sup Forums please leave

>they are all the same species

Wat

I don't rememevr this in books it's been a while though

>Saruman burned down the shire because he was a salty bitch
What the fuck did the Valar ever see in this cunt?

they're all the same class of species right? Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, the blue wizards, Balrogs, and possibly even the eagles (they're servants of Manwe like Gandalf at the very least) are all Maiar IIRC. But I don't think they're a race persay. I think a better analogy would be like a class of angel.

but you brought it up, OP, you can't hide

so wtf are you talking about?

Wait what the hell is a malar? Is all this stuff in the simillarion?

Eagles wizards came from another dimension? Man I'm confused now

>In the terminology of Tolkien's invented language of Quenya, these angelic spirits were called Ainur. Those who entered the physical world were called Valar, especially the most powerful ones. The (mostly) lesser beings who entered the world, of whom Sauron was one, were called Maiar

I used "species" when I should have said "kind" I guess. Or same being

Again, I am not OP. Will you just go to bed already?

Uruk-hai were a imitation for the stronger breeds in morder. It's just that the bulk of Mordor's army were faster breeding orcs, like Morgul orcs. Mordor could probably count just as much of their Uruk-hai equivilants as Isengard could breed, coupled with the huge amount of snaga types.

the orcs of mordor are even pretty accomplished farmers.

If Aragorn's kids are Half Elves, could they choose
to live as Elves, as Elrond did?

Dwarves > Numenoreans > Hobbits > Humans > Orcs > Urukhai > Goblins > Elves

The original eagles in the Silmarillion, Thorondor I think, is a spirit sent by Manwe, who is himself a higher class of spirit, possibly the same class as Melkor.
Pretty much has it. I would keep in mind that as Tolkien moved on in his series, things got changed, so it is confusing.

Who's more powerful:

OP with one thread to rule them all
or a legion of shitposters?

If Arwen chose to become Human when she conceived them, then no? I'm not sure. did any of Elrond's brother's children ever get that choice?

No, once they were Men they were Men.

The only half elves with choices left were Elrond's sons, who I don't think Tolkien ever specified their fate.

sauron fucked it when he put his power into the ring

sauron with ring>saruman with ring>sauron without ring

why did Saruman lose faith in his mission and decided to join Sauron?

was it because he was the only one that seemed to care about the mission and the fate of middle earth while the others were fooling around? is he a metaphor for the white man's burden?

But he would because he does not interfere with such affairs. He didn't lift a finger to destroy Melkor what makes you think he would have helped against a lowly minion of Melkor?

If anything the question is if the Valar could be bothered to help if Sauron gained the ring.

I always wondered if humanity gave a shit that the throne was left to half elves

how and what exactly ordains what the ring will do to the user? i know that that the whole "going invisible to everybody but ringwraiths" thing happened to frodo and bilbo, but what would it do to dwarves, or elves, or even an uruk hai? does it just make whatever you're innately good at better by tenfold or does it pick by race?

wasn't the point of the ring to dominate the other rings? The only reason he made it was part of a trap to control the holders of the other gift rings he made. Like the intended effect was to have domination over all of them, but instead the elves said fuck off, it just made dwarves greedier, and while it controlled the human ringbearers it turmed them into freaky ghosts.

he was slowly corrupted by conversing with sauron through the palantir

k3k

A combination of studying Sauron's works and being impressed by them (especially the rings) and being arrogant enough to use the palantir and thus be corrupted directly by Sauron.

He did not care about his mission, and hindered it frequently.

If a lore has characters of different power levels, what is wrong with discussing them? Most times, after the major themes are talked about and plot points, all fans have left is discussing head canon.

>why did Saruman lose faith in his mission and decided to join Sauron?

his endgame was fucking over sauron and taking over himself. He basically thought the "gods" werent doing enough to make middle-earth a better place, but he was fully willing to do whatever necessary

it also basically raised his power level

they left out him taking over the shire in the movies

He might have also been seeing Sauron's victory in the palantir, or misinterpreting what he was seeing. I think that's a common theme in the books, that Denethor, Sauron and Saruman all end up seeing shit in the Palantir and coming to the wrong conclusion about things. The special edition of RotK has some Tolkien experts come in and talk about it in the portion of building the script.

Saruman was always arrogant, it's the classic hubris that brings down the great hero. Even before they arrived in middle-earth he got butthurt that Gandalf was Manwe's favourite.

I really liked that part of the book.

Good way to end the trilogy, the whole hobbit war thing

was gandalf a mary sue?

This. Saruman is a pretty classic well-intentioned baddie.

>was gandalf a meaningless buzzword retards like you spew endlessly on this board

The answer, by the way, is no.

No one said Tolkien was politically correct.

The magic of Tolkien is unlike the common understanding of it in other fantasy, basically it give the bearer power, which can manifest itself differently. For example Bilbo and Smeagol got their life span increased, despite Bilbo not even wearing it for most of the time. Whoever wore it would become much more powerful, but of course manipulated by the will of the ring.

your ambition was tied to what you could do with the ring as well. Hobbits in general, have no ambitions but for not being seen by big folk, hence they can only really use the ring to be invisible. You can use the ring to bend others to your will, which Isildur does, though it's more seen as a power of persuasion.

only in the same way Achilles or Beowulf could be called a mary-sue, meaning not really. The LotR and the Silmarillion are styled like epic poems which are full of guys doing outrageous shit. Like Ecthelion putting down Gothmog. Or a fleet of airships and eagles fighting a dragon big enough to bring a volcanic mountain range crashing down.

Like the ending to ROTK didn't drag on long enough, fuck off

>WAHHH IT'S TOO LONG FOR MY ASPIE ADHD SENSIBILITIES!!! LE BORING XD

How did orcs know what menus are?

it should have been a 4th movie

orc diners on the coasts of Nurn.
>every menu just says meat.

Any list can be considered a menu. This has always been dumb to complain about.

He wanted to defeat Sauron, but he probably would have fallen under his control due to the ring's bind to Sauron. Hard to say for sure though, Saruman might have defeated him and become the evil ruler of middle earth

do orcs have money?

He was a servant of Sauron. Sauron whispered his demands and he obeyed. He didn't have an endgame. His endgame was Sauron's endgame.

Amazing that people so confidently post into a thread with 90 responses an answer that is completely wrong.

This is mostly untrue

Saruman was playing 21billion-D chess. Too bad he was only capable of keeping track of the first dimension.

...

Whites and blacks are technically the same species.

Now compare them their accomplishments and ability

Wrong board, fucko