Minority Report

So why was this guy destined to meet Leo Crow, who did not kill his son after all? What triggered the Precogs to see this image?

Because it happened dummy. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. It will happen in the future because he saw that video right now, thus making it happen.

I don't know, it's fucking time travel I ain't gotta explain shit.

/thread

I know that. The simple question is why did Lamar hiring Leo Crow triggered this encounter so soon? Why not years away?
>inb4 there would be no movie otherwise

Sorry I had reread a little synopses of the film to understand your question.

I assume that's just how it all happened to go. That was when those events were set to take place. Or could Lamar have hired Leo years before and your theory still work? Maybe it's taken all these years? Can't remember if they specify when they hired him.

Wtf happened to his son anyway?

I think the viewer was to be led to believe that Leo Crow and the whole setup appeared after Lamar was told by John Anderton that he wanted to investigate Ann Lively's death. So it's quite safe to assume that Lamar hired Crow to bring Anderton down after he realized JA can be a menace for the Precrime vote

sequel bait

Okay. Well wasn't one of those visions of Ann Lively by the precogs actually faked? The water was rippling the wrong way or something, showing it was doctored footage? Maybe Lamar doctored another vision: that one of of Crow, which spurred the whole thing into action?

And if that's true, he probably didn't want to even spur all this shit into action. He probably assume Anderton wouldn't have fled and he would just be taken in for a precrime and put away forever so it wouldn't matter at all. But he flees, so then the whole movie happens, and he does end up shooting Crow (even though it was Crow who made him pull the trigger).

That would also explain the further steps Lamar took to kill that other investigator digging a bit too deep into the Lively case with Anderton's gun. The precog system was down so the murder wouldn't have been seen, and they could go back to using old fashioned forensics and seeing it was done by Anderton's gun (which happens, and they put him into stasis in the movie).

Maybe the precogs had nothing to do with this really, and it was all just Lamar kicking everything off and things just happening like they did?

The visions of Precogs were never tampered with. JA sees the flashback from Agatha vision of real Ann Lively murder.

>He probably assume Anderton wouldn't have fled

Good point, he might have engineered a Leo Crow and JA meeting in a very distant future, the Precogs would detect it and JA will be haloed for good without further investigation. Really, that just opened a whole new dimension of possible Precrime misexploitation for me. I can find the man you would most likely kill on first sight, I can set up another man to act as this man, boom, precrime haloes you.

>That would also explain the further steps Lamar took to kill that other investigator

I think he only did it because there was an opportunity and the means at hand. Otherwise he would just set up Witwer the same way he did with JA.

Is there a way to protect Precrime from this exploit then? Maybe they should study the premediated stuff more carefully?

Great arguments btw

Didn't they make a tv series or something?

>The visions of Precogs were never tampered with. JA sees the flashback from Agatha vision of real Ann Lively murder.
Well something had to be tampered. If they couldn't tamper with the actual vision, they could probably tamper with the recorded footage of the vision. Isn't that what the whole reverse ripple thing was? Tampered footage passed as the actual Lively murder? If so, Lamar could have made that Crow footage and passed it off as a real vision.

>Otherwise he would just set up Witwer the same way he did with JA.
>Is there a way to protect Precrime from this exploit then?
I'm confused here. I agree he probably just shot that other dude because he was there and had a gun. But the way he handled JA and that guy were totally different. Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean here?

Why didn't the movie end at the hotel room confrontation?

It was perfect there

> Tampered footage passed as the actual Lively murder?

No, that is established in a movie - Precogs have a vision of a fake murder of Ann Lively, Precrime arrests the bum hired to do this, Lamar does everything the same way, Precogs have another vision of now Lamar killing Ann, temple technicians disregard new vision as a flashback The ripple was different in a real and staged (failed) Ann Lively murder

> Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean here?

Danny Witwer is an orphan, as he tells in a movie, and iirc his parents were killed or something like that. Why then Lamar won't wait for Agatha to be returned to the temple and then hire a guy who Danny Witwer would kill on sight?

Has anyone read pic related?

It gives the backstory for pre-cogs. Basically they had such severe autism that they could see into the future, they couldn't process the current time because their brains were moving so quickly but they were able to see things happening in advance.

it didn't work out 100% as the precogs saw it because free will is a thing

>Precogs have a vision of a fake murder of Ann Lively, Precrime arrests the bum hired to do this, Lamar does everything the same way, Precogs have another vision of now Lamar killing Ann, temple technicians disregard new vision as a flashback The ripple was different in a real and staged (failed) Ann Lively murder
Oh yes, sorry. I should stop theorizing on movies I haven't seen in a while but this thread is entertaining and actual movie discussion so forgive me.

Okay, so that established, let's explore the options here... If that vision was a real vision and not just made up footage like I had put forth before, I don't think Lamar could have done that faked thing like the Ann Lively case because JA's face was actually in this vision. That had to have been the real vision of the real event later in the movie. So okay, to address your timeline issue. I'm thinking maybe after Lamar hired Crow, he had laid plans to somehow get JA to investigate him, he'd find the planted photos, and kill him. The precogs saw this murder before Lamar had actually done his fake assignment to JA, so instead of his fake scenario to get him to investigate Crow, it was a vision from the precogs. So a fake case Lamar was going to give him would have cause the murder at that time, and the precogs picked it up before he actually assigned the case. That's why it all happened then.

>Why then Lamar won't wait for Agatha to be returned to the temple and then hire a guy who Danny Witwer would kill on sight?
Oh I get what you mean now. Well I think you already nailed it before. He might have been planning to do all that, but it was an unplanned scenario when that orphan detective decided to investigate into Lively himself. He told Lamar and Lamar realized he had to take care of him before he told anyone else. So he used JA's gun to just shoot him right then. Unplanned, but it worked for what he wanted and he couldn't wait to implement that other plan.

because spielberg is in the hollywood ending business

Never heard of it, would definitely try

> actual movie discussion
yeah, a strange beast on this board

I did not quite got what you meant, let's make a simple timeline here.

- Anderton goes into temple with Witwer, sees Ann Lively murder flashback.

* Maybe something done by Lamar here *

- Anderton sees the Precogs vision of Leo Crow murder, runs off

* Maybe something done by Lamar here *

- Anderton calls Lamar

* Maybe something done by Lamar here *

- Anderton visits crazy greenhouse lady
- Anderton steals Agatha
- Anderton realizes there is no minority report for Leo Crow's death vision
- Anderon kills Crow

Can you add what you meant before here?

It's a pretty short book, pretty easy to read. It's been a while since I read it but basically the premise is that mental illness has become a lot more prevalent in the future and the colonies on mars are home to a lot of it. Great comfy sci-fi desu, as are all Phillip K. Dick books.

Big fan to be honest, but that one utterly slipped my attention
Just to return the favor, if you like P K Dick, try Lem - he's fucking awesome

Thanks m8, I've never heard of him but I'll definitely give him a read. Haven't read much Sci-fi outside of Phillip K. Dick and Ian M. Banks desu.

how bad is the tv show?

Shame you are not Russian-speaking, I presume, I would recommend some great audio adaptations

Start with The Futurological Congress, one of the wittiest sci-fi the world has ever seen. As a starter it has a guy who plans who plans to murder the Pope and has constructed a special Pope-killing-rifle for that. I think you'll enjoy it

basically there was a 99.9% chance he was gunna kill Crowe and thats what triggered the premonition.

Tom Cruiser was just that awesome that he resisted the murdery urge and the murder still happened 99.9% the same. (it just ended up being a little more of an assisted suicide than a murder)

the question is why did it happen so soon? it could be years before Anderton would stumble into Crow

>yeah, a strange beast on this board
Right? Kind of sad to say.

>Can you add what you meant before here?
Let me try to elaborate. Let me do a simple timeline of what I meant. Still theories I'm just speculating.

- Anderton sees Ann Lively flashback and wishes to investigate
- Lamar, having actually killed Lively and not the bum hired to make it look like he did, doesn't want any investigation into Lively
- Lamar hires Crow to plant pics in his own apartment and make it look like he killed Anderton's son
- Lamar schemes to make up some fake investigation to assign to Anderton to get Anderton to investigate Crow, find the pictures, and kill Crow. Something that isn't a precog vision that will get Anderton into Crow's apartment and kill him after finding the pictures
- The precogs pick this future murder up, showing Anderton shooting Crow, all before Lamar could even give his fake case to Anderton yet
- Anderton flees
- steals Agatha
- Anderton wants to know why he kills Crow so he goes to the apartment, totally fulfilling Lamar's desire for him to enter the apartment and see the pictures
- Anderton shoots Crow after learning Crow was hired to die and he didn't actually kill his son
- this fulfills the precog's vision of Anderton shooting Crow

How could you be arrested for a crime you didn't commit?

Thanks, will defo check it out. I'm not russian speaking, no, instead I am a beady eyed anglo.

I'm watching this piece of shit on HBO right now.

idk ask the A-Team

Ok, got it, so we can narrow it down
>- Lamar schemes to make up some fake investigation to assign to Anderton to get Anderton to investigate Crow, find the pictures, and kill Crow. Something that isn't a precog vision that will get Anderton into Crow's apartment and
kill him after finding the pictures

That poses a problem. The Precogs vision of JA killing Crow happens almost right after a talk with Lamar. Let me throw some crazy ideas in - what if Lamar was a Precog also? Hence he could specify the set of circumstances and a man required to fulfill the prophecy pf JA killing Crow so quickly? I know that sounds like a Web 1.0 forum theory, but that is fun to think of. It also fits nicely into the image of Lamar killing himself

because if you will not he will commit one

Podesta

>That poses a problem. The Precogs vision of JA killing Crow happens almost right after a talk with Lamar.
How so? How far into the future can the Precogs see? I mean, right when JA told Lamar he wanted to investigate Lively, Lamar knew he was going to have to eliminate JA. This plan wouldn't take long at all to set into motion. A day to come up with the idea of a fake investigation, give it to JA, and maybe a few days to get JA to break in to Crow's apartment and see the pictures? it's just that the Precogs picked up the murder before Lamar even assigned the fake case to JA so the vision was what actually got JA into the apartment. I think it's perfectly viable that that's what happened.

I think the theory of Lamar being a precog himself is fun and all, but he'd have to be a super duper precog because the only way the precog system work is if all three of the individual precogs used are all hooked up and put into a hivemind. He'd have to be some SUPER precog.

> fake investigation
Thats the thing that bothers me most in your theory. There was no active push from Lamar (in context of the movie) for JA to start anything. They talk about Lively, next thing we see in JA killing Crow.

> SUPER precog

Yeah, that may be a bit of a strecth, but here's how I came to this idea

- Precogs see the intention to kill and can identify individually. The trinity of Precogs is used only for verification of the prophecy, thats also established in the movie.

Let's say Lamar decides to frame JA. He devises to frame him by the means of one guy, another guy, then Leo Crow - boom - he has a vision of Anderton killing Crow after he's intention to frame him using specifically Leo Crow. That's why he goes ahead with it.

>There was no active push from Lamar (in context of the movie) for JA to start anything. They talk about Lively, next thing we see in JA killing Crow.
But the timeline of events have already been set in motion is my point. Once JA talked about wanting to investigate Lively, Lamar was already set on eliminating him. Without the vision immediately after that, he would have decided to set up some fake investigation and gotten JA into Crow's apartment, and had him murder Crow. It just hadn't fully developed and unfolded yet. That's my theory. The events were already set to happen once JA told Lamar he wanted to investigate Lively.

>Precogs see the intention to kill and can identify individually. The trinity of Precogs is used only for verification of the prophecy, thats also established in the movie.
That's a good point. They probably use the three Precogs for checks and balances to ensure fake visions can never get through.

>He devises to frame him by the means of one guy, another guy, then Leo Crow - boom - he has a vision of Anderton killing Crow after he's intention to frame him using specifically Leo Crow.
Interesting, user. More food for thought.

Oh i see it finally. So here's my understanding

- Lamar hires Leo Crow to act as a JA kid kidnapper.
- Lamar hires another bum (N2) to come to Leo Crow apartment where Lamar would kill him. That will trigger JA coming to Leo Crow apartment to stop N2 murder, where he founds Crow and kills him. That's good, especially given that after JA starts running away no one really pays attention to new Precogs visions, so Lamar killing N2 (or maybe another bum named N3 killing N2 in Leo Crows apartment) goes unnoticed

Pretty good understanding. Got to go to sleep now, it's 5am here already, I can start another thread about EST midday tomorrow so we can talk about it more. Maybe even discuss Decard being an android?

>I can start another thread about EST midday tomorrow so we can talk about it more. Maybe even discuss Decard being an android?
Yeah I'd like to come back and discuss this further, friend. I'm also curious to where you live in the world given your timezone. Good night.

Belarus. Moving to Ireland next month. You? Also thanks for a good discussion. Lovely to go under the radar of shitposters to discuss some really intricate plots for fun and profit.

Isn't that the tag line for the film?

>You?
A tiny little state in the US called South Dakota. I-I don't feel comfortable narrowing it down any further, friend-o. I might be killed for telling anyone we exist.