The collectivism vs individualism meme is wrong. It has gotten it upside-down due to liberal economics and a strong sense of individual duty in the so-called "individualist countries".
I don't know how someone with real-life experience and who has considered the psychological aspect of this could ever agree with this map.
Everyone who has been in countries like Greece, Italy and Portugal knows that if it's one thing people in these countries have it's big ideas about themselves, competitive attitudes, know-it-all-ism and strong sense of entitlement/self-interest. These are very egoistical traits. Even silly things, like driving more recklessly (because nobody is going to tell me what to do), corruption and being reluctant towards paying taxes, stems from this. But it's also the reason they exported good philosophy, art and revolutionary men. They really don't like the pressure of authority or herd mentality and are prone to radical and rebellious attitudes. They aren't more prone to "collectivist ideologies" because they are "collectivist", it's because fuck everyone else and more for me.
I'm a med living in Sweden, so I get to see and experience both archetypes. One thing I have a hard time with in Sweden is that they are the opposite of this. Their urge to constantly minimize their presence sickens me. Their first instinct is to make way for others, their concern lies mostly with what the group will think, how it will act or what it will become. They are not infamously lonely because they are individualists, they're lonely because they're too scared and don't value themselves enough to put themselves out there and be go-getters, one-uppers and influencers. Google Jantelagen.
On the other hand, I've noticed that the narcissistic tendencies of American culture and social media has enabled some Swedes to leave this mentality behind, but it's not good either. More and more Swedes are becoming delusional "superstars".
Not gonna lie, Eupedia is filled with shit maps. They really argue Hungary is so much more indivudalist than the countries around them
Ethan Martinez
It's a meme. Hungarians act very similar to Romanians, Serbians, Croats, Slovakians ect.
Jack Garcia
No need to overthink it, red = lazy shithole
Caleb Cooper
You got some point in your reasonings. I also was always conflicted when someone describes Russians as collectivists. Sure society holds a grip on people's behaviour, but in reality everyone doing what they are feel like doing and bound more by their own moral rather than some "collective mentality".
So basically I can agree that this map is bullshit.
Ian Russell
can't
Cooper Hall
>oasis
more like a swamp, where we wish the neighbours cow dieing if ours did
the mentality is cancer, i would go as far as theres no society anymore, if you attack this country, nobody will defend it, theres no common goal, no bettering a country, only ME ME ME ME ME sometimes this is hidden behind nationalism but they are stab eacother in the back just as quickly as anyone else
Isaac Harris
Canada has this too, as a western country we are supposed to be individualistic, but in reality we have tall poppy syndrome, our politicians vote according to party lines more than in any other democracy, and our history is mostly notable for Canadian obedience to authority.
Leo Jones
>don't value themselves enough to put themselves out there and be go-getters, one-uppers and influencers
That's exactly what individualist is you fucking mong, we don't like attention. Now fuck off.
Bentley Wilson
I wish we were more collectivist. It's becoming more and more trendy to be selfish and heartless asshole every day
Jeremiah Reyes
thanks murrica
Lincoln Ross
Just be yourself and punch those who disagree :^)
Cameron Thompson
Then go join some communist party in Russia and wait for Stalin to be revived.
Daniel Bennett
i think Manolo mistakes the jantelaw with collectivism
Jayden Barnes
I think it's important to know that the Jantelaw isn't a law and nobody in populated areas such as the biggest cities where 95% of the population lives don't give a shit about the "Jantelaw".
Anthony Hughes
Collectivism is like when you are cold and a group of people come near you with a blanket and you are all huddled together because you are all cold. Individualism is like when you are cold and then you die. > I still like individualism more than collectivism.
Oliver Scott
It exists in the cities too, at least compared to other countries.
Asher Taylor
of which there are 5
Nathan Russell
Cringe it's a tiny population dumbass
Lincoln Sullivan
go to bed underage edgemaster
Liam Robinson
Go back to the Steppes you horse riding mongol
Justin White
How are collectivism and individualism in this map even defined?
Lincoln Scott
>waa waaa mutti evul "mongol" hurt my feefee
you are a little shit, you have no experience, you dont know ppl, you only interact with similar mentally not fully developed children, go get some sleep
Jonathan White
kéne sör
Wyatt Lopez
Why are we dark blue?
Daniel Thomas
That is caused unironically by multiculturalism.
It makes you feel dissociated from the rest.
The unit of society is broken, the bridges of commonality are dynamited. You can't see yourself reflected on others.
I've seen this behaviour growing in Spain as multiculturalism grew.
It's also very influenced by the american culture which through their toxic media promotes people having anger bursts, being uppity, hysterical and confrontational or simply antipathetic.
Josiah Miller
What is strange is that the more "individualistic" a country is, the more generous and all encompassing the welfare state is and in general the more socialist they are and also more able to successfully implement collectivist ideas like worker unions.
James Torres
There are a lot of dimensions to individualism and collectivism.
>An Individualistic culture: My loyalty lies with me first. Nuclear families; yourself, your parents and your children.
>A Collectivistic culture: My loyalty lies with my group first. Extended families; brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, cousins nephews etc.
Basically if the way you operate in society is highly dependent on others, than your culture is collectivist. If you can just do your own thing and people will mind their fucking business instead of getting their nose in yours, then your culture is individualist.
Aaron White
>Google Jantelagen. The fuck is this This is depressing lmao
Hudson Richardson
>[I] have used Geert Hofstede's scale of individualism vs collectivism to make the map. There was a lot of data missing in Eastern Europe, which I had to infer from the score for neighbouring countries and based on the genetic and cultural similarities. Genetic traits don't fit neatly within a country's political border. In general I have found that the percentage of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-L11 (Celto-Germanic) correlates fairly well (though not perfectly) with high scores for individualism. The strongest matches seem to be the S21/U106 and S28/U152 subclades. >Italy has a strong north-south gradient. In Germany and Poland it is a weak east-west gradient. In France I followed the genetic curve separating the more Celto-Germanic north and east against the more Neolithic/Mediterranean centre and southwest. >Bulgaria and Romania had a score of 30, but knowing that Romania had a substantial Hungarian (and German) community in the Northwest of the country, I increased the score for that region and lowered in for the rest of the country to keep the average. I gave Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia and North Greece is lower score than Romania, Bulgaria and the Greek average because these societies are are some of the best examples of collectivism in Europe (e.g. the strong local communities isolated from each others for centuries, strong family ties, strong distrust of the government...).
>The Arab World got an average score of 38, but West Africa of 20, so I gave the Maghreb an intermediary score.
It's not. It basically says you should should never boast about your achievements and pretend like you are better than others. It makes for a much saner society. It's also comfier for rich people because you don't have the pressure to waste your money on useless shit because it is expected of you to have the biggest mansion and most luxurious cars.
It's basically the opposite of what the Saudis and the Americans do. Basically the opposite of Trump.
Jose Cook
We have it too, it's called tall poppy syndrome.
Jason Parker
Yes so do we, but apparently Jante is a bit more extreme.
Joshua Kelly
Except that poppy really is tall - not just thinking so.
Jack Reyes
Apparently the map was created with Geert Hofstede's scale
Here are some non-European countries, using the same 0-100 scale for individualism (not collectivism)
Easton Phillips
you know, maybe I should have picked a country other than Australia because its scores are eerily fucking identical to the USA. Seriously, it's ±5% on every category, even beyond individualism
Diversity reduces trust among a community. Even in the USA, which has one of the strongest pro-diversity propaganda campaigns on earth, the social engineering isn't enough to overcome the implicit downsides to diversity. Multiculturalism in any other place on earth, especially ones that don't have state propaganda to reinforce it (like Hungary, Italy, etc.)? Good fucking luck.
The West voluntarily unsheathed the tachi and is committing harakiri before our eyes. You want to know a big reason why the Middle East is a shithole in a constant state of war? Its borders are arbitrary due to Sykes-Picot and tribes inevitably get into conflict with each other as they exert their right to self-determination and nationalism.
Eventually Western countries are going to fall to the same fate of Balkanization, but it's hard to be sympathetic. We did this to ourselves, willingly, unlike the arbitrary boundaries the French and British set upon Iraq/Syria/etc. This is the epitome of "hold my beer, I'm a fucking retard"
Asher Thomas
>Swedish """men"""
David Perry
Collectivism is like being stuck in a backwards groupthink that heating your neighbor with one's own body is the epitome of HVAC.
Individualism is one innovative person creating a space heater / central air / whatever and being rewarded for his cleverness by society at large. You know, the sort of behavior that drives scientific understanding of the world instead of grabbing everyone by the ankles back to the Stone Age.
Joshua Brooks
Anglo hivemind
Brayden Moore
The best is when you are an individualist in a collective country. That's how leaders are born.
Here are Anglos.The biggest deviation seems to be long-term orientation (the UK is much better at it apparently) and Canada is slightly less individualistic than the rest of our 90%+ scores
Jeremiah Fisher
>But it's also the reason they exported good philosophy, art and revolutionary men. >philosophy lol, ancient Greece and present Greece are more defferent between them than present Greece and present Sweden between them >art I agree >revolutionary men ?? only in northern Italy in renaissance, the rest are German and French
Cooper Stewart
>being reluctant towards paying taxes But also they want a big brother state that cares about them and gives jobs and free stuff unless making a bigger effort to follow their individual desires they prefer to be less free but comfortable
Kayden Richardson
postcrip: a big brother state (politicians) don't really care about their people
Hudson Long
So having to live with your parents until you graduate counts as collectivism?What an absolute mongoloid observation
Leo Rodriguez
>Canadian obedience to authority.
Well duh, you're still not independent.
Luke Martinez
You have this backwards. Mediterranean boasting is gregarious behavior. Gregarious = other people are necessarily involved.
Self-effacing behavior is an overwhelmed response to excessive individualism in a society. It's a way of trying to shed the excess attention that individualism brings, while also maintaining their own individual silence and isolation.
Michael Murphy
>why the Middle East is a shithole in a constant state of war? Because likes finance terrorist organizations with your fucking help. Good job burger.
Cameron Moore
>ITALY >THE BOOT HAS A STOCKING
Luis Price
Mate, you are talking about America as if it's a real nation
America is an economic zone, ruled over by the highest bidder. Blaming Americans for the actions of their government is futile, I'm sure you know this and it's very frustrating for you, but it's the sad truth
Daniel Walker
This is a made up map to agree with the idea that being more individualistic means a richer country
