Deep Space Nine is starting to get really good. Just started season 3.
Is it just me or is Sisko an "acquired taste" character? I'm liking him a lot now but couldn't stand him in the beginning.
The Dominion seem like total cunts.
Also, Quark is fantastic. As a TNG/VOY fanboy I never thought I'd enjoy a Ferengi character.
Does the show keep improving?
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OH SHIT NIGGA THE CHANGELINGS ARE THE FOUNDERS
Sisko is a completely different type of Captain(Cmdr). He is way less passive than fucking anyone but he's like... the frontier star trek. Yes, voyager was "frontier" and yes enterprise was "frontier" but the levels of shit they got into weren't anything like sitting in a war zone for years and holding everyone off with sheer force of will. When they get to build up these boogeyman races whose sole purpose is to fuck with DS9 you get a lot more respect for Sisko's style.
Also DS9 has 100% the best supporting cast of any of the trek shows, the main cast is okay-to-good depending on the episode. Sisko, Obrien, Odo hold the show but then you have Quark, Garak, Dukat, hell Rom & Nog, Nagus, Jeffrey Combs, Jeffrey Combs, Jeffrey Combs, etc.
>As a TNG/VOY fanboy I never thought I'd enjoy a Ferengi character.
Shimerman, who was one of the original 3 ferengi on TNG, said he wanted to redeem the Ferengi.
>As a TNG/VOY fanboy
>VOY fanboy
I was unaware that such a thing existed. Doctor fanboy, maybe, but not the entire show.
Rom and Garak are fantastic as well.
Is that Quark's actor? He totally did, he's terrific.
Come to think of it, the only episodes I really liked were doctor ones and the occasional Paris/Kim banter. But man, the doctor's best episodes were fucking fantastic. The one with the Vidiian girl was amazing, and so was the comedy one with him and Seven of Nine learning how to date. Voyager is very watcheable and a bit faster than DS9 in the early seasons at least, maybe that's why I used to like it better.
Lots of people loved Voyager because it was the most "family"-ish Trek series. Voyager still gets rerun every week on BBC America and has lots of people still watching it. Can't say the same thing for DS9.
DS9 was the best adversarial relationships though, people being enemies one ep and then begrudging allies the next. A million tiny morality plays, perspective shifting, everything. Very cynical too, spoonheads objectively best recurring species.
And in the process it completely ruined the Federation. I'll never forgive them for introducing Section 31.
Canonically retconned it out though, til Enterprise in the future in the past.
Hey I just started too.
Sisko seems most likable when he's ready to go nuclear on an enemy.
I was more surprised by how much I really liked Quark, he ended up being my second favorite character behind Doctor Bashir.
Bashir only shines in Garak episodes though. He also makes Obrien hilariously mad so that's a benefit I guess.
Sisko is just so fucking confrontational, like he hates the politics and chills with his baseball until someone gets in his face. Never backs down, ever. All that the compromises they pull off in DS9 are pretty fucking pyrrhic so his way gets the best results.
Oh forgot to mention, Garek is the most based man in the galaxy.
>He also makes O'Brien hilariously mad so that's a benefit I guess.
It's been two seasons and O'Brien has already almost had his kid eaten by a fairy tale character, almost executed by Cardassians, cloned and the clone murdered, and god knows what else.
I feel REALLY bad for Keiko.
Well I think that's probably supposed to emphasize some of the fatherly love and fatherly law he puts forth. It's his way or the highway, but he does try to listen out first and find the best course of action.
Bashir shines when he has someone to talk to, but I don't think that detracts from the character. He's a young kid looking for adventure on the frontier, which drives almost all the experienced staff mad. Still, end of the line, he's often the one they have to rely on to survive.
I'm actually surprised Keiko hasn't left sometimes. Still, I can get feeling lost without having shit to do on a station in space.
I think the highest Miles-nearly-dies-episode streak is like 5 or 6.
Bashir does get a pretty decent character arc in one of the mid-late seasons where he stops being so fucking annoying (on purpose). He's also kind of important and I like that his medbay is on the promenade where he's just constantly interacting with folks. He's not the hoity toity OPS kind of officer, he's the adventurous killing officer.
Deep Space 9 is my favorite Star Trek. I like it better than TNG.
Mad Sisko is best Sisko. His angry face is intimidating as hell.
I'm watching the episode right now where: Quark finds that baby in the cargo bay,
bitch probably didn't even give him the 3 bars of gold pressed latinum.
Oh I missheard, he paid the latinum.
Still, that's what you get for buying on Craigslist Quark.
Keep this in mind.
Dukat did literally nothing wrong.
>It's a Bashir develops a sex-slut Jadzia to warm his bed at night episode
>Can't say the same thing for DS9.
cuz DS9 sucked the first time round and nobody wants to suffer through the adventures on a shopping mall in outer space again
You only like it because it's not a Star Trek show at all.
Missed one tbqh
>ywn be dominated by mirrorverse Kyra
jdimsa
>ywn be dominated by your mirrorverse self wearing that uniform
>the levels of shit they got into weren't anything like sitting in a war zone for years
Lol didn't stop Janeway and her ship of magically replenishing resources from acting like it
>it needs three seasons to get good
stockholm syndrome the franchise
Enterprise didn't, literal Kino since the first episode
Each of its seasons feel very different. The first one is very much exploration and planet/ayy lmao of the week centric, season 2 starts introducing longer story arcs, season 3 is voyager done right, and season 4 is a collection of trek mini-series.
Compare it to the other shows since TNG and it compares quite favorably season to season.
>Canonically retconned it out
How? When?
Why is Section 31 such a hard pill to swallow? You already had ALL the corrupt admirals, Starfleet having corruption at the highest levels was always a thing.
Section 31 wasn't even corrupt, it was just an arm of the Federation that actually got shit done.
Sisko is definitely an enjoyable character except a few hiccups.
Later on in the series, there's two particular points where he's basically oozing modern SJW mentality, once personally, once backed up by the writing.
One of these is when he goes on a rant about how a holo-program the crew is using to relax which takes place in a 1940s Jazz/Swing bar is racist for no other reason than that in the actual 1940s black people were not allowed in there, even though the program has no such discrimination. It's about as ridiculous as if he gone on a rant about Picard's holodeck adventures on a sailing boat, because his ancestors were once transported in the bottom of one.
The other one is a full episode which is a vision sent onto him by the Wormhole aliens, that is basically about how terrible race relations were in the 1950s, because that is definitely the most important thing Wormhole Aliens are concerned with, and would definitely take time out of their schedule to construct such a vision for him, and that vision only of that topic only.
The one thing that might hit you eventually, is that he's not really a Captain.
And I don't mean that in the Sup Forums way, or even the pedantic "Technically he starts out as a Commander" way, but rather as that he feels more like a Starfleet Admiral than Starfleet Captain.
Captains tend to do questionable things, but Sisko pretty much engages in the same shit "Janeway" did in the episode where a copy of the Doctor ends up in a future war museum, except Sisko doesn't do the whole edge lord attitude part.
Basically, Terrorists led by an ex-subordinate of Sisko's poison a Cardassian colony's atmosphere.
Sisko's response? He goes full on Captain Ahab/Javert (they literally reference Javert and say he's being exactly like him) manhunt against the guy with full on Scorched Earth policy, taking it as far as poisoning the entire atmosphere of a Human colony the same way they did for the Cardassian.
>magically replenishing resources
Please don't remind me, my wife and I are still in Season 1, and I'm quite enjoying all the episodes about them harvesting food from planets, taking detours to find more energy, etc.
To be fair the episode where he complains about Vic's holo-vegas came after the prophets implanted the life memories of a black sci fi author during the civil rights movement in his head.
We're dealing with a society where race hasnt been an issue for hundreds of years, and suddenly hes being beaten by the police and called a nigger. There's no psychological callus hes developed from living in our modern age, so that shit probably cuts pretty deep.
And the two other black characters tell him hes acting like an overly sensitive baby.
My bigger problem was him having a chip on his shoulder about the Vulcans in the baseball episode. It's kind of hypocritical.
>badda bing
There is literally 10 seconds of him bitching and Kassidy puts him in his place almost immediately after
>far beyond the stars
It's a great episode and a totally plausible situation for 1950s America
>gassing the planet
Yeah that was fucked, but it was completely evacuated so it's not like he murdered innocents to get to Eddington. If anything In the Pale Moonlight points to him being a batshit war criminal Admiral than any other episode
Season 4 ENT is kino. K I N O.
He has one line criticizing Vic's lounge, and Kasidy shuts him down immediately afterwards.
For the vision, The Prophets were trying to tell him that he is both the dream AND the dreamer. To understand what that means, watch the season 7 opener again.
You sure do blow a lot of smoke over nothing.
Take shots every time Janeway fires torpedoes. Mark down the number of torpedoes fired.
Drink the whole bottle and have crazy sex when you realize that she has infinite torpedoes.
>It's Sisko tries to kill hundreds of thousands of people because he's a nigger who can't into reasoning and only does it to spite one man
Cardie asslicker should've been shot.
YES. I'm watching it for the second time from start to finish (Ive seen almost every Trek more than once).
DS9 has the best ongoing storylines and character development by far IMO. I'm not saying it's the best, but it has elements that are the best, basically getting better with every season. It rarely gets as deep as TNG humanity/philosophy/morality stuff/ But in its place is a much less ideal, far more realistic gritty Star Trek, and its great.
Also the ship that makes its first appearance in season 3, episode 9 (up to that yet?) is awesome.
Are you now understanding marquee references from Voyager you never got??
Come on dude, Sisko is like the least black acting black guy ever.
You guys seem to get the idea that I hate Sisko and/or DS9 and/or those Episodes.
I don't. My point was just that it becomes painfully to watch.
Honestly, I didn't even mind them a few years ago, but his anti-heel turn became painfully close to home when this SJW craze got traction.
That being said, the "both the dreamer and the dream" thing, I think could have been done better. There's tons of real hurdles that have been put in the way of of progress throughout history. Mixing it with racial politics just diluted the message.
@81544214
>pls gibe yous I was racist n stuff :(
you too, reddit
>Bajorans become terrorists to fight the Cardassians
>Sup Forums: "The Cardassians did nothing wrong! The Bajorans should have all been gassed!"
>the Maquis become terrorists to fight the Federation and Cardassians
>Sup Forums: "The Maquis did nothing wrong! Sisko should have been shot for opposing them!"
What did Sup Forums's television and film board mean by this?
A lot of Sisko's weird non-Federation stuff is set up in the pilot. Picard says "We want the Bajorans in the Federation. MAKE IT HAPPEN" with some serious inflection. Picard knew Sisko was getting put in the middle of the shit and that he'd have to bend/break rules to make sure Bajor got on its feet and joined the Federation.
Again this is because they DIDNT help during the Cardassian occupation because of the Prime Directive and they all deeply regret it. Starfleet of DS9-era is basically falling apart under its own rules and EVERY fucking Starfleet ship is basically doing questionable shit to take advantage of the wormhole and exploit the Bajor/Cardassian conflict on so many different fronts. The Maquis are one of the obvious symptoms. Bajor itself is fucking tearing itself apart under various religious power struggles and all that shit. It's pretty intense.
DS9 is a pretty grimdark Star Trek and I love it. THEN PAST TENSE HAPPENS
Also for the record S1 is the only weak point, S2 starts on a fucking strong 3-4? parter that nails it.
>My point was just that it becomes painfully to watch.
The problem is with you, not the show. This is a serious indication that you spend too much time on this website, and you take your time here too seriously.
Bajorans are dirty xenos.
Marquis are mostly human.
>Does the show keep improving?
Hell fucking yes it does, it gets better and better and better and when you think it can't get any better, the best is still to come.
>Inferior Alien species worshiping dimensional ayys
>Superior human colonists
Gee I wonder
Except for the last 5 episodes, holy shit that got Loony Toons bad
Watch it Luke.
Apart from Dukat, the last episodes were great.
Damar, Garak and Kira saved the galaxy and stole my heart.
Sisko and Dukat ruins it all man, plus MUH PROPHETS and the whole good vs evil shit is just such a disservice to the excellent writing that proceeded it.
Only at the very very end, before that it was epic.
I wish that was the case.
I have family who seriously believes that god is angry with the white race.
I guess I imagined I wasn't the only one who had people like that pop up over the past few years, my mistake.
But over ten episodes, the Dukat/Prophets storyline only takes up like 30 minutes. And until the Fire Caves most of it is even enjoyable.
The fact that Terry Farrell wasn't in the clip show (because Rick Berman screwed her over) is a bigger sore spot for me.
I secretly liked it because Terry was a stuck up bitch and she can't act for shit.
>but they just replicate new torpedos!!
Oh yeah? With what energy?
>They just don't waste time showing it anymore!
Oh so you mean they don't bother having any stakes or consequences for the characters anymore, despite that being the entire premise of the show
>REEEEEEEEE
FUCK OFF A SELF REPLICATING MINE FIELD MAKES PERFECT SENSE
...
Until it runs out of energy :^)
Fucking this.
I remember rewatching the entire series a few months ago, and like in the entire first season, the only moment she became relevant beyond showing off her physique, was an episode where she went into a wow of silence and had everyone else talk about how interesting her background is.
I'm talking about the episode where she's arrested for a crime her previous self was accused of.
Fucking hell that woman. Literally every other cast member was better at portraying her race, and we got to see it proven when she went on her spirit journey or whatever the hell it is when she chats with old selves through friends.
I don't know why they didn't just say it siphons energy from the wormhole or some bullshit.
Then the Bajorans could be all like, "THU PROFETS PROTEKT".
That would've at least been an attempt at explaining that bs.
She wasn't even an interesting alien, just 8 humans. They're on DS9 with all the fucking badass alien races put together and she's just the least convincing scientist
Bare with me for a moment, but isn't there something established about Replicators where they can take excess matter and turn it into energy?
I mean, when the minefield or part of it goes off, it tends to take ships with it, at least in theory, so couldn't they just turn the destroyed ships into the new mines and use the excess left over matter to recharge their batteries?
DS9 had the ability and supplies to make a minefield.
Voyager didn't have the supplies/ability to make torpedoes.
DS9's minefield was defeated.
Voyager's torpedo supply was never emptied.
DS9: 1, Voyager: 0
Because the first season was running off of recycled TNG scripts, so none of the characters (except Kira) had anything particularly suited to them.
They only had scripts for Kira because they were originally written for Ro.
And when they reboot DS9, hopefully the bigger budget will allow them to show this.
>Because the first season was running off of recycled TNG scripts,
Source for this?
I liked early season Sisko better.
Not scientifically possible.
Also, they tried shooting the mines from afar and they still replicated indefinitely without any debris to draw from.
The idea that you could keep replicating something that is powerful enough to destroy starships is crazy.
DS9 wasn't supplying the minefield though, it was supposedly self sustaining.
It was only defeated by technobabble when in reality it should've just ran out of energy.
>Not scientifically possible.
It's Star Trek. Real life science doesn't matter.
>Also, they tried shooting the mines from afar and they still replicated indefinitely without any debris to draw from.
No, they didn't. The Dominion couldn't shoot the mines because the mines were cloaked.
Your problem with the minefield stems from you mis-remembering what happened.
>The idea that you could keep replicating something that is powerful enough to destroy starships is crazy.
Why?
There's a difference between destroying a ship from a military point of view, and obliterating it out of existence.
If the ship takes enough damage that it can't function anymore, or blows apart, that will still leave it with far more matter than it took to take it down.
Think of real life torpedoes and mines that can destroy a ship. They're fare smaller and carry less munitions than the ships they take down.
Yep, this is the cold hard truth right here. It was a classic Brannon&Braga move, technobabble out the ass.
>science fiction show
>science doesnt matter
I remember Dukat/Damar talking about blowing up the mines but saying it wasn't working because they just kept replicating.
They resorted to a beam of some sort to disable the replication units.
They never had a problem hitting them, is what I'm saying.
I'm not misremembering shit.
Sisko has very subtle character development. A season or so later from now he'll seem like a different character than the one you've been used to throughout season two and three.
Late season three is where the show starts getting real good and thankfully it keeps that quality until specific episodes the fans usually agree aren't too great.
Everything Shimerman is in is kino. Loved him as Principal Snyder in Buffy the Vampire Slayer
The whole 'Insaneway' narrative is really challenged by all the crazy shit Sisko did over the series
> WEYOUN: In the future, it might be prudent for you to include me in all decisions relating to station policy. Now, what about the wormhole? You assured me that you would be able to dismantle the minefield within a month. That was two months ago.
> DUKAT: Well, I admit the work is proceeding more slowly than expected, but as you know, these are not ordinary mines. Every time we deactivate or destroy one of them, its neighbour replicates a new one.
Nothing about shooting them, and it's not even Damar.
You misremember shit.
I know the term 'mary sue' gets thrown around on Sup Forums a lot, but Dax was one of the most genuine incarnations of the term I have ever seen. Ezri Dax went through more character development in one season than Jadzia did in the preceding six.
>The whole 'Insaneway' narrative is really challenged by all the crazy shit Sisko did over the series
Janeway was quite bonkers allota times, but DS9 apologists can never admit Sisko was shit. How could they, the diversity cast could do no wrong, hence why they tortured O'Brien - for his sin of being white.
I wonder if her and Siddig ever role-play sex games where one or the other is from the mirror universe since they're still a couple.
>DS9 apologists can never admit Sisko was shit
Because all your complaints come from you misremembering what happened.
Even in this very conversation, is describing events that didn't happen.
He's confused. Ensign Ro and the bajorans were introduced late in TNG specifically to cross over into DS9, and Kira's role was originally supposed to be Ro but i think something fell through and they decided to make Major Kira a new character.
There were a lot of changes made to the "Bajora" between TNG and DS9.
They had their own writers and the show was being planned while TNG was winding down.
Supposedly sisko was supposed to be Jelico, the guy who took comand of the enterprise when Picard was sent on the black op mission into cardassian territory.
I literally said Dukat in my post you twit.
What did you imagine when they said "deactivate or destroy"?
You're actually disproving yourself, embarrassing.
sisko is based as fuck, he doesnt take any shit and he blows the fuck out of the dominion and cardassians
much like riker he gets a lot better once he has a beard (and shaves his hair)
>I literally said Dukat in my post you twit.
You said Damar too, which is incorrect.
>What did you imagine when they said "deactivate or destroy"?
Throwing objects into the minefield destroys mines, but it also gives the mines more mass to convert into energy, which gives the mines more energy to convert into mines.
You misremember shit.
>The whole 'Insaneway' narrative is really challenged by all the crazy shit Sisko did over the series
Sisko tries to at least rationalize some of his crazier actions. He also was also Bajoran space jesus, so that gives him some leeway.
Janeway just did whatever she wanted and didn't give a fuck who liked it.
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>Lmao I'm right because I'm le good guy
I mean I understand what they were going for, she's this total newbie kid who has the "spirit" of 8 lifetimes. So she tries to sound wise, but also she's naive. I just hated her character and I don't think she was written to be hateable.
Sisko sucked. I remember watching DS9 and thinking that at the start and the finish.
The show was ripped off of B5 which had been shopped to them and rejected. It started off rotten but gradually became B+ material. A handful of characters grew interesting and sometimes the writing was very good. At its best, it was better than Voyager but on average about the same. Better than everything post Voyager, for sure.
And when it is all said and done, Sisko still sucked.
>Sisko tries to kill hundreds of thousands of people
Is that why he warned them to evacuate? Because he was trying to kill them?
Or maybe you're describing events that didn't happen.
>only does it to spite one man
Did you forget that the other people on the planet were criminals and terrorists too? Did you forget that they just made a bunch of Cardassians homeless, and Sisko was providing a new home for the Cardassians?
Maybe you're describing events that didn't happen.
>Jelico
Oh how could I ever forget based Jellico. That's interesting though, I don't think I'd want to watch a whole show with him. He was good for getting shit done in a crunch, but he was super insecure and doing stupid Red Pill faux alpha tactics that weren't going to work with someone as smart as Dukat.
The writers were never super sure of what to do with Dax. The character changes quite a bit over the run of the show.
It's nice to see a science officer in the blue uniform. They mostly ignore that branch outside of Spock and the Doc's. Always triggered me a little.
Damar was part of the minefield destroying team, he was the one who figured out how to do it.
Dukat was the one who talked to Weyoun about it because he was the boss.
>they threw rocks at the minefield
Wew lad. I mean, there were so many scenes showcasing this.
It's not like they have wide beam phasers or anything to swipe the cloaked mines with.
DS9 gets points for simply managing to make the Ferengi likeable, considering their introduction in TNG as cartoony villains who would have fit in scooby doo, that wasn't an easy task
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I've been watching all of Star Trek in a strict release order though, and Voyager it's the first of the shows which feels so painfully dull I end up taking hiatuses.
>The writers were never super sure of what to do with Dax.
Yeah that much is definitely true. She was hired to be the T&A of DS9, but they kept her in uniform all the time so the writers had no idea what to do, while Rick Berman kept suggesting she get implants lol.