Sup Forums opposes european federalism

>Sup Forums opposes european federalism

>with federalism you could actually vote against things you don't like and pay less in taxes

>you won't your government instead to do it

What is this autism?

>EU
>you could actually vote

>with federalism you could actually vote against things you don't like and pay less in taxes

Yeah that's definitely what happens under the EU

I don't want to be in a country with retarded southern Europeans, poor slavs, or autistic self-destructive Germans.

because countries like Estonia, Greece and Poland leech through the EU and become a hinderance to countries like France and Germany who then benefit out of them

Here's how the EU works:

>National Parties come together and firm EU Parties
>They send some of their people to the EU institutions
>These people have nothing better to do than make up new regulations for anything and everything imaginable
>They vote until the regulations are passed
>They tell the countries "hey, we think you should do stuff this way, everyone In The EU does that"
>Countries say "sure why not, gotta conform to EU standards, right?"
>Repeat ad infinitum

>pay less in taxes
An additional layer of government will reduce taxes?

>pay less in taxes

Are you 6 years old?
Taxes only ever go up.

>and pay less in taxes

How's that 24% vat working out for you?

>you could actually vote against things you don't like
But here's the trick: it's useless 98% of the time and you, a common plebeian citizen, wouldn't even know about it until it starts affecting you negatively.

>add more government
>less taxes
excuse me, what?

>with federalism you could actually vote against things you don't like and pay less in taxes
KEK

>with federalism you could actually vote against things you don't like and pay less in taxes

Nice meme.
You know Germany is strongly federal?

No one knows what federalism is, right? It's not the current EU. The current EU works government-to-government. Your votes in the European Parliament don't matter. There's no legitimate representation or political discourse. It's all behind closed doors. I want us to be able to discuss, like America. Engage ourselves.

>More government
>Less taxes
>No suffrage

Pay denbts, gyro nigger.

Yeah sure, like Americans don't have suffrage.

If you want to save white culture, real white union is the only way, whatever the costs.

now bash me faggots

Fuck the Jewish pan-European Project. OP is ignorant.

Yea, because the federal United States sure do give a shit about states' rights.
Come on now, you are just that greek furry shitposter

>EU
>vote
nice oximoron here, totally not like the europeran comission was loosing her shit every time the poeple of 1 country express his opinion, the EU is a joke, an abomination controled by lobbyists and filled with second hand politicians that couldn't get elected on the national/regional level, literaly the antithesis of democracy

In the United States, peoole engage in passionate discussions over their president. You just "have" Merkel & that clown, Junker. GG

>he unironically wants to give absolute power over the eu to this man
conisder suicide

I agree. We need to take it over and make it free & capitalist.

>"free & capitalist"
>wants to give control to a commie
explain me how this even works

Having bad leadership is better than no, or shady, leadership. Right now it's the worst between Federation and ethnic nationalism.

Then abolish the EU if you don't want Merkel and Junker.
I dont want to pay for poor countries

>literally anyone is better than none
do you realize how retarded this even sounds? if this is the average mentality of greeks then no wonder your country is such a failure.

How is Schulz related? We can vote for a decent party instead of divide & conquer statist crap. We'll cut down 19 governments and make a smaller one. Pretty good. Leave representation to the local & supranational state. We either need to do it or forget about it completely.

pretty much yeah, because capitalism is what got us to the highest level of development in human history while communism only stagnated and made ignorent peasents that couldn't even remotely controll their destiny.

To be fair our government did give a shit about states rights once upon a time. Things have just gone horribly horribly wrong since then.

In theory a Federal Europe could be just great if its built on nationalist principles and exists primarily to defend its constituent nations.

But as it exists now, the EU is an abomination and needs to either be reformed from the ground up with a completely new constitution, set of rules and leaders or just outright destroyed.

If you believe that the EU will suddenly become a democracy after the federalisation is completed you are naïve.

>I don't want to pay for poor countries
>flag

Dude...

It's the mind of practical people worldwide. The EU is the shadiest shit worldwide. I tell you to elect a Parliament and a President. So bad?

You do know that we are the only nation aside from Germany and France who contributes more than it receives, right?

You won't have to pay because there will be no welfare. You decide with your vote anyway. Now you don't!

>implying you're gonna be allowed to vote
globalization is literally the first step to a communist regime, this simple fact you seem to not understand.

>did give a shit
Keyword being "did". We all know how federations end.
Plus I don't want German multiculti lovers to rule over Europe.

Thats factually wrong.

Elaborate?
Hmm, that's a knee-jerk reaction to change. Control your fate, not avoid it. Start or join a movement. It's easy nowadays.

>there will be no welfare
Yes there would be, plus there would e a federal budget, otherwise a federation would not exist.
>You decide with your vote anyway. Now you don't!
US citizens do not decide how budget is allocated, and neither would we. I simply don't want to be in any kind of union/federation, I want my government to focus on our needs alone and spend our tax money on us alone

It has struck him so hard in the head he thinks his vote can lower it.

We can only hope the delusions are heat induced.

Well its a mistake to note and learn from my friend. Hell theres a lot of lessons Europe needs to learn from the failures of the United States and learn them quick.

The thing is my friend is the world outside of Europe is hostile and if you guys fully uncuck Europe they will never forgive you for it and they will be out to destroy you. Any economic, political or military bickering amongst European nations is going to be used as an excuse to fuck you.

>have my national budget decided by greeks, spaniards, poortuguese and italians

no thanks
bye

The EU is the world's weirdest socialist corporatist amalgam. It spends it's time pumping out nonsense rules, and only springs into action to implement Merkel's brainfarts.

>Elaborate

>EU works with unelected officials
>EU can do whatever the fuck they want and no one can really stop them
>people have absolutely no right to speak their minds and stop laws
>people don't vote for the Parliament, the president or anyone else
>people can't change the course of the EU through voting a different party into the EU or something similar

The EU was, is and never will be a democracy.

You are right. We are still the top 4th contributor now that the UK is gone. I don't want to support other nations

Conservatives from around Europe could overrule the cucks. We are more. Not everyone in this Continent is so nihilistic. God, you don't even want to fight.
Centralization in corporations always saves money in the end. So everything would cost less & politicians wouldn't have to bribe their constituency with welfare, since it's a European election. About the budget, of course you get a choice.
Then you have bigger problems.

> with (European) federalism you could actually vote against things you don't like and pay less in taxes
> referendum where you ''could'' actually vote against something you didn't like was a clear democratic 'NO'
> vote was respectfully disregarded due to EU not being a democracy and Greek gov being EU peons
> still thinks his vote matters

Proud to be Greek.

>powerful, centralized government far away from you
>pay less taxes
>your vote has influence

You do know you can leave, right? The Brits did.

Why does Poland receive so much Euromonies? Gib Euromonies to Finland too fags

That's what I mean, reformed everything that you mentioned.
It's an investment, and in the case of a federation, you wouldn't support other nations, because other nations wouldn't exist. The federal government would allocate your taxes, which would be lower because of less national bureaucracy & centralization.

>Well its a mistake to note and learn from my friend
Oh I know, trust me. But we never learn. Did Europeans learn anything from South Africa? No, we praise Mandela as some sort of hero
>Any economic, political or military bickering amongst European nations is going to be used as an excuse to fuck you.
You are unfortunately right, but I don't see the EU being able to protect us from foreign powers fucking with us.
Yes, ideally the EU would be something completely different, but we are too far in the process of defining what the EU is to change it now. We might as well destroy it and start from scratch

I guess Finns are more important than Americans, because government is closer. Yay.

No we can't. Our constitution does not allow a referendum on that. WWe would need to modify the constitution first
>Conservatives from around Europe
Conservatives are a joke nowadays. They are neocons and the same thing as leftists
>Centralization in corporations always saves money in the end.
Yet centralization of power always reduces democracy and freedom. I'm willing to pay to conserve my democratic process, I'm not willing to pay to sustain unsustainable countries
>About the budget, of course you get a choice.
On paper yes. We are talking about reality here. If you want I can provide you examples on how EU budget is wasted in an undemocratic way For example we give 64 billions, yes billions not millions, to African countries to stop the refugees, while we still pay our navy (which in theory should protect our borders) but we don't let them do their job

make more kids

It's an investment that I'm not willing to make. We have enough problems on our own without focusing on everyone else.
> and in the case of a federation, you wouldn't support other nations, because other nations wouldn't exist. The federal government would allocate your taxes, which would be lower because of less national bureaucracy & centralization.
Not really. We would have leaders elected from poor countries dictating part of our policy nd lobbying for more gibs.

Why should I be interested in paying for other nations? What benefit do I get?
You say it's an investment, but to what end? It won't benefit me in the slightest

You guys are in the process of learning. Trust me, more Europeans have an idea of whats going on and are angry about the status quo than Americans. My country drunk the poison of civic nationalism and is dying of.

>You are unfortunately right, but I don't see the EU being able to protect us from foreign powers fucking with us.
Yes, ideally the EU would be something completely different, but we are too far in the process of defining what the EU is to change it now. We might as well destroy it and start from scratch

Starting again has to be foremost on everyone's mind if Europe if you destroy the EU to its foundations and I don't hear much talk of it. I can't blame you guys for being more focused on the problem at hand than future problems.

And sadly one of your biggest future problems is going to be a hostile United States. The moment you guys stop being good goys, the multicult loving, bank cabal backed U.S. government is going to stop at nothing to destroy you.

>I'm not willing to pay to sustain unsustainable countries

You don't really know how that works, do you? You pay us, to pay you back, with a little interest. And by you pay, I mean you give assurances to some Luxembourg bank. You don't pay actual tax money. It's a circlejerk.

Italian politicians & corporations get influence in other countries, like the Balkans. I just read how they want to get Serbia in.

>EU
>thinking you have a say in anything

you forgot getting bribed by thousands of lobbyists and putting EU law above any national constitution

You could vote for wealthy and influential people, who then vote for even more wealthy and influential people.

"I'm sure the people who were voted in by the people I voted for have my singular interest at heart"

Welcome to the Chinese form of Democracy.

>And sadly one of your biggest future problems is going to be a hostile United States
Yea this is what worries me the most in an eventual post EU scenario. If you elect Hillary she won't like see the EU go away.
Let's hope you manage to get Trump in the white house, otherwise we are both screwed
and in the meantime our national debt keeps going up, tying us to international markets and depriving us of the ability to self determine. What a great deal
Yea, because our government is pro EU. Hopefully it won't get reelected and the referendum in october will most likely fail

If what you meant is reforming everything he mentioned then you are against European federalism just like Sup Forums opposes.

In the case of an EU federation, you are willingly handing out all the power to one government. One ring to rule them all. Your ''change shit with mah vote'' power becomes even weaker because nations won't exist anymore and everyone will identify by their social status. In order for any federation to actually work, you need a bonding factor. Do you have something that actually connects you with the rest of the EUfags like muricans have burgers?

Said government will use and abuse the need for social status that it has already pushed onto people, in order to apply and manipulate them towards the direction it wishes by dividing and subsequently feeding various social subgroups with what they desire.

Sup Forums is against federalism because DE-centralizing power is the thing that may actually give you what you've been talking about. Some kind of power to your vote and an easier to control environment.

Like someone else said, your comments are relatively naive with a dose of hippy ''no nations no borders'' mentality.

>You don't pay actual tax money. It's a circle-jerk.
I will be objective and fully agree on that one.

Or he does, because he does have a scent of commie.

Hmm.. I think that is a bit unlikely to happen. Good luck obviously, but if it fails, consider my proposal. I think we're here to stay. So might as well make it better. Big steps forward.

I'm sorry, I don't think this is a good argument. You're just saying it's difficult. Hell yeah, it's the only solution. The federation is not a tyranny and social status isn't bad. Let people compete, not nations.

If it fails I'll move to the UK. I abhor the EU above everything else

Heh, I thought of that too. I supported the Brexit as a fail-safe.

Kys you euronigger.
Economic policies to our detriment and outside of our control designed around Germany-France, what could possibly go wrong?
EU migration policy that fucks us over too, I was at Athens the other day it's full of niggers and shitskins, it was unbelivable.
EU will be the death of us.

Guess we'll meet there if everything goes to hell

Clearly OP wants to avoid the real crux of this problem.

You'll come around eventually. There's literally no other solution. I don't like or dislike it, it's just what we have to do, like our grandparents fought in WW2. We'll have to fight for federal, economically sane Europe.

Germanic union would be better, and actually work. Funland, Czechia, Baltics and Slovenia can come too. Having Spain, Italy and France drags us all down

>socialist hell hole
>bureaucracy out the ass
>federalism that intends to become a superstate

>EU means lower taxes

KEK.

Most EU countries are nearing a 50% income tax.

>not using the new flag

Now the Germany-France state-industrial complexes decide. In Federalism, the EU Parliament would decide. We could agree with a German and disagree with a Greek and vote for a Swede's party. Freedom.

How about we axe the political cancer that is "European Union" and keep the free trade agreement?

The EU is the only stagnant free trade area in the world and the political cancer that grew on top of it for 30 years now is the root cause.

We do not need federal level politics, all of it only results in the economy slowing down and gross offenses being committed against the populace.

Greece wouldn't have a 50% youth unemployment rate if it weren't for your beloved federalism.

France and Italy both contribute more than your islamic shithole does, Muhamed
>muh germanic race
The only interracial couples I saw here were German women with African men. Wow such masterrace

I respect that opinion. I don't agree, but it's your choice. Do it. I want to see young Europeans do something. Only Americans can into politics.
I like the UK civil system, we need to emulate it.
Okay, but the problem is, who decides to shut it down?

Of course, since you have more people. Your people are lazy and corrupt and you industry is completely non-competitive in a global market though.

You'll just keep falling, no hope for you

>Then you have bigger problems.
No, then YOU have bigger problems, Costas...

It doesn't gt shut down. The EU is facing too many crisises all at once. The UK already left. If any other nation decides to leave (looking at you Netherlands) the EU will be short on budget and start a process of political disintegration.
See the USSR as an example

Or maybe you misunderstood my argument (/my argument was misunderstood), so I'll try to rephrase.
I'm not saying it's difficult. I am saying that the federal system is fertile ground for all the already existing shit to amplify. You claim you want to vote against things you don't like. You claim you want people to compete, not nations. Nations never really competed about anything lately, except maybe sports and stuff. It's a certain oligarchy that competes with each other AGAINST the people and as a result it stomps on one of the very fundamental concepts of the people. Democracy.

Are you an aspiring oligarch slash jew? If yes, then it makes sense you oppose Sup Forums and what it stands for.
But proposing to give even more concentrated power to the elite, as if they don't have enough already, hits a level close to social suicide.
The solution is not to embrace oligarchy and attempt to be part of it by perpetuating the take-advantage-of-others problem and social status is bad because in western societies it's bound by greed.
What you need is the classic democracy back in action, not naive trust on a bunch of Tyrants who will spoon feed you whatever the ''movement'' you joined needs in order to keep your mind numb.

>Okay, but the problem is, who decides to shut it down?

Technically the EU Constitution (treaty of Lisbon) would allow all of us to Article 50 simultaneously.

The dissolution of the EU is not supposed to happen, so a mechanism doesn't exist for it. We would have to create one.

As for who decides, the European people themselves would after they've been given a full rundown of what the EU has actually accomplished since 1994. This means a full audit and total transparency.

They will revolt at less than 10% of the truth coming to light.

>You'll just keep falling, no hope for you
The irony of Northern Somalia saying this. Kek

>We'll have to fight for federal, economically sane Europe.

Feel free to fight for a dying institution if you like. The rest of us are going to fuck off one at at time.

I see. Okay, I'm cool with that too. At least it's a clear thing.
I honestly do not. Please be civil.

Theres a difference between having useless people in some suburbs and useless people in every mirror Alfredo :) Enjoy your bankruns the coming weeks

But you just said that the European people should not exist as a political entity, it should just be a free trade agreement.. Now you want them to decide on something?

I respect that right, I supported Brexit.

What is this semantic bullshit?

By "European people" I meant the citizens of all the member states. They currently exist as a political entity and they would decide to dissolve the EU in a referendum.

It's to point out, that even leaving, involves politics. It's not so simple. Moreover, it's wrong. Look where you are and how big you are. Its Provincialism in the 21st century. Come on, you were more adventurous in the past.

EU leaders (in both central and local goverments) commited TREASON against EU member countries citizens letting in Islamic invaders and putting their CITIZENS knowingly in grave danger.

And federalism is their POWERGRAB to shorten command chain and supress dissent for continuing to do so. They are fools that hope they can crush EU member states rising awareness with tyranny.

In other words - merkel wants to arrest me as easily she arrested german citizens for speaking their mind
Closet islamists as the EU leaders are they want to be able to crush massive protest demonstrations in member states (what we will see soon) using their Islamic thug force loyal to them. They want to be able flood us with their invasion force at will. Always were - mandatory immigration quotas is on their to do list since last year spring.

They simply fear for their lives for what they have done and this is agony to keep EU under their heel.

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN ANYMORE YOU DELUSIONAL MANIACS! It is only inertia that holds EU together right now. Seen this in times of the fall of the "mighty" Soviet Rule.
When people no longer trust their authorities en masse all the house of castds collapses and can be hold together only with bloody tyranny.

OP talks about better taxes and voting against things we do not like. Our vote gets dissolved. Divide and conquer style attacks on European member states nations would be easier to orchestrate and vote rigging (as we have seen in Austria presidental elections) would go through more easily.

OP should start packing and flee, nobody is going to argue with him anymore.

--

Their incompetency (closet Islamists as they are) killed them.

>How about we axe the political cancer that is "European Union" and keep the free trade agreement?

This is what EVERYBODY wants except for the corrupt politicians.

It's also the most sensible outcome for the Brexit.
And the ONLY reason not to give Britain free market access without political cancer is becasue it would be so awesome for everyone involved that everybody else would follow them.

How about we roll back a bit on this whole free trade too.
If countries have some deficit and wish to invite other countries in to fill in, sure.
But let's not have competive counties stomping on local market at their infancy when it is not nessesary.
Some tariffs here, some open trade when nessasary there, sprinkle in some defence/movements and access agreements with and we are set.

Checked. Listen man, I don't agree with the 'oligarchy' stuff. I think Western democracy just fine, we just need to use it.

>It's to point out, that even leaving, involves politics.

Jesus Christ I wouldn't have thought. Thanks for clearing that up.

>It's not so simple. Moreover, it's wrong.

Explain to me whats wrong with not wanting to get ruled by a bunch of plutocrats and traitors who's names I don't know in a building I cannot access with an organization that refuses to publish what they are actually doing with my tax money and the livelihoods of my children?

Excellent input. My thoughts spoken plainly.

-- all the house of cards -