If a girl is awesome it's her being a Mary Sue

>If a girl is awesome it's her being a Mary Sue
>If a guy is awesome it's just him being the Protagonist

Explain.

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gib examples

I mean there is a pretty big difference. Don't be retarded, user.

being a mary sue is never the problem though. its being boring.

What percentage of the female population have skills other than social manipulation and taking dick?

>>If a guy is awesome it's just him being the Protagonist

Never happens though. Male protagonists always have their flaws and are realistically written.

Not to mention that those who can beat up average guys definitely don't look like stick figures like the chick from the fucking 300 sequel

It has nothing to do with gender, it's wether the character goes through enough struggle

wtf I hate men now

I don't have a problem with all-powerful women characters but Mary Sues tend to be boring to the
max, always being so relatable and yet so easily idolized!

p self explanatory. or do you find women easily beating up men 2-3 times their size engrossing?

>is he the main character
>yes
>he's a mary sue
it's not rocket science

...

i do struggle with this a bit. I found Rey to be a complete Mary Sue but when someone called her a female Indiana Jones I had to stop and check myself because the two had a lot in common- except for one key element:

Every character either loves or is intimidated by Rey, but every character in Indy's movies either hates him or finds him annoying.

Just give me one character who has a valid and relatable reason for hating Rey and I think she would be so much more palatable.

Girls are weak and emotional messes. They are not strong enough to do shit (unless they are a freak of nature bodybuilder).

Name some Marty Stus that people just think of as protagonists then. Luke is not a Marty Stu.

Name four (4) movies where the main male character does nothing wrong.

Even Arnold Schwarzenegger's characters looked weak and pathetic at times, yet if a woman was portrayed in the same way you'd call it a stereotype. Every female character has to be this cookie cutter heel flicking sassy strong independent womyn lacking any human weakness or the writer will be ostracized and never work in hollywood again.

Explain.

...

>Even Arnold Schwarzenegger's characters looked weak and pathetic at times

Conan the Barbarian looked weak and pathetic? The Terminator from Terminator 2 looked weak and pathetic?

>but every character in Indy's movies either hates him or finds him annoying.

Two women wanted to have sex with him. His minority side kicks are all deathly loyal to him. What the fuck are you talking about?

No, the male version is often called a Gary Stu.

James Bond is probably the most notable example.

But people don't complain much about Bond because they know exactly what to expect with him.

With Rey it's a huge step down from other Star Wars protagonists to have a Mary Sue be the lead all of a sudden.

John McClane from Die Hard through Vengeance - Protagonist.

John McClane post-Vengeance - Mary Sue.

Indiana Jones original trilogy - Protagonist.

Indiana Jones in Crystal Skull - Mary Sue.

Jason Bourne - Mary Sue.

Liam Neeson in Taken - Mary Sue.

It really is just that simple. Writers largely gave up on the hero who wins by being smarter, gutsier, crazier, or just wanting the win more.

Wait, so people expect girl protagonists to be weak, flawed, or otherwise damsels in distress?

Batman is anti-sue. I think you mean Superman. Either way both are often thought of as Mary Sues so your argument is invalid.

No they expect actual characters and not perfect cookie cutter heroes with no flaws.

>Lara Croft in Tomb Raider: Not a mary-sue
>The bride in Kill Bill: Not a mary-sue
>Ripley in Alien: Not a mary-sue
>Sarah Conner in Terminator: Not a mary-sue
>Mystique/Jean?Storm in original X-men trilogy: Not a mary-sue
>Melissa McCarthy's character in Spy: Not a mary-sue
>Emily Browning's character in Sucker Punch: Not a mary-sue
>Scarlett Johansson's character in Under the Skin: Not a mary-sue

>Rey in the Force Awakens: A mary-sue

"oh my god, why is every female protagonist that kicks butt a mary-sue to you guys?!"

>Batman is anti-sue. I think you mean Superman.

Fucking normies, man.

Never seen conan but in terminator 2 arnold gets reckt as as all he can do is stall the superior robot, he desperatley crawls towards it by the end trying to fulfill his programming as the humanity hes found along the way

>anti-sue
>beats Supes because muh prep time
>white rich guy becomes ninja master better than any of the actual Japanese ninjas
>rich orphan turns into world's greatest detective at 25 years of age with detective experience rivaling that of older and more experienced actual detectives
>anti-sue

No they expect actual haracter development instead of being conveniently competent and skilled at everything from the first movie onwards you retarded fucking nigger Disney shill

But if men were perfect cookie cutter male power fantasies with no flaws they're just "awesome" or "Clint Eastwood".

>character development
>Batman/James Bond/The Man with No Name/Jotaro Kujo is just awesome when he does awesome stuff.

Yeah sure.

Batman is the anti-superman. He's the straigtman in DCs universe full of overpowered of mary sues. No powers. Makes mistakes. Has flaws. Everything you listed is just entry level superhero crap. I'd get into it but you don't care.

>awesome

Not just "awesome".

Mary Sue is a character that is flawless in everything or has flaws that feel artificial just for the sake of giving character "depth".

Rey is 100% Mary Sue.
Zero training, perfect pilot, wins against sith in training, everybody is in awe of her.

Luke was proper way to do it.
Aside finale in ANH (thanks to the force) he was clearly inexperienced and couldn't hold on his own.

Examples. Give them.

Even the women who want to fuck him are frustrated and often times annoyed by his choices throughout the movies. His side kicks save his ass multiple times and also point out his flaws. If Rey had a sidekick it would probably be someone akin to Prim in hunger games, just a character that the writer can use to more obviously worship the Mary Sue.

Though at this point I'm starting wonder that maybe I just don't find Rey's flaws to be relatable or interesting and that's why I don't like her but others do, because this is why I considered the main character of Hunger Games a Mary Sue.

Jesus nigga, take it easy. Cancer like OP is not ready for such a brutal rape.

because men are awesome and did basically everything, ever

women are bystanders in history, so it just feels weird when a woman is good at something

...

>itt male feminists 100% defend poorly written female characters by corporations who have subverted feminism to sell flawless women to the masses who are never in danger and somehow beat up every male they meet in hand to hand combat

The irony is that this all started with the hunger games, and the female lead in that is completely useless and relies on men to save her the entire movie.

>Rey is 100% objectively Mary Sue
>OP extends this to say all females are seen as Mary Sue
Stop projecting, OP. Why do you hate women?

I disagree with the Jason Bourne thing though. In his case it really was because of the amnesia and he went through the struggle of trying to find out who he was again even though he was physically superior to everyone he fought.

People are Mary Sue if they have no faults. End of. It can be physical (skill, ability etc faults), it can be social faults (is annoying, short tempered etc) or it can be 'mind' faults (retard, stupid, doesn't think etc). You're a Mary Sue when you can do no wrong, everybody loves you, you're smarter and better than everybody else for no reason.

People forget having a justification for being 'better' is important. This guy is smarter than everybody else because he does X Y and Z. He is stronger/more skilled because X Y and Z. He is more successfully socially because X Y and Z.

So on, so forth.

>Rey
>not a Mary Sue

Pick one, Tumblr.

his backstory is literally 500 times more developed than Rey's

he didn't turn 16 and start battling Bane

Ripley is a shinning example of how to do characters right.

Nowadays everything is "here's your female protag. Trust us her backstory isn't important. Shut the fuck up and eat your damn crab legs.)

>Conan the Barbarian looked weak and pathetic?
Yeah, considering his general incompetence in the film

>continually bailed out of shitty situations by his allies
>gets caught by royal guards because he was drunk and careless
>gets captured again by Doom
>is then crucified and left to rot
>allies then have to resurrect his mostly dead ass
>loses his pivotal revenge fight with the man wielding his father's stolen sword, only to win through divine intervention from Crom

he's a pretty shitty barbar thief desu

Mary Sues are by definition unrelatable, since they are an untruthful author fantasy.

The problem lies with the fact that an unskilled writer doesn't understand their own flaws and instead writes a story about how they wish themselves to be, not realizing that that false image of themself would be turned off by most real people.

Everyone calls female characters Mary Sues because, seven times out of ten, they are.

This is talking about recent developments by the way, not comics historically.

The vast majority of ALL CHARACTERS written these days are Mary Sues because despite being the most one-dimensional flat, unlikable characters you've ever read you are constantly TOLD how incredible and wonderful and powerful and good and amazing they are and you're told how everyone loves them and nothing goes wrong with them except when it does they're sad but when they're sad that just shows how down-to-earth and human they are! Perfect characters and completely different to eachother, you can tell they're different because they wear different clothes!

Characters have been rendered down to plot engines at their most basic level and everyone is suffering for it, male characters, female characters, characters who are neither somehow. You the reader, you're suffering for it because comics have become an even worse cesspit than they used to be except now you're not allowed to criticize them for fear of being labelled a Nazi by one side and a Marxist by the other.

>his backstory is him doing more obnoxiously awesome things than Rey by means of money and "Fuck it, I'm the Mighty Whitey protagonist"
>yet Rey is the "Mary Sue"

Also, you must consider that Rey isn't the only protagonist like Indiana Jones. His name is even the title of the movies. Rey is supported by several other characters, and does not exclusively hog the limelight - this makes her Mary Sue tendencies stick out even more.

Few would say that John Wick is a Gary Stu, since the entire movie revolves around him.

Rey actually accomplished less than Luke due to her inexperience and having to fight Vader Lite (really the rough equivalent of Bobba Fett with a lightsaber).

And yet she's the Mary Sue.

Most likely that character isn't even a female character.

Rey gets kidnapped and she's the one made into a Damsel in Distress.

And yet she's the perfect character.

Wrong.

>anti-superman
>he can beat anyone with prep time

Might as well be Superman with his prep time.

>Straightman of the DCU
God I can't escape you assholes.
If you actually read comics or had seen enough stories with Batman interacting with the rest of the DCU you'd start to see just how much of a power fantasy the character is. You just can't see it because you think that somehow because Batman doesn't fly it makes him more "realistic". Realistic Batman died after night two of patrolling the city when he slipped and fell off a two story building, broke his leg, passed out and died bleeding out in an alley. The fact that you think your fantasy stories are more realistic because a character uses fantasy technology that, if it did exist, would be completely wasted on a one man war on crime. In fact the entire idea of one human being capable of taking on an entire cities crime is complete fantasy no matter how you approach it because it's completely infeasible unless you give them some kind of super human edge that allows them to make a difference. Like making them invincible, or giving them super human strength. Yes these things aren't real but that's what makes those stories compelling, it forces you to look at our world in a new way, where a character actually has agency and abilities that no else has.
Yes, our world has people who have a shit ton of money who could have a large impact on society using that money, some of those people have even dedicated their lives to fighting crime using that money. Do you want to know why no one has tried becoming Batman? BECAUSE IT DOESNT TAKE THE WORLDS GREATEST DETECTIVE TO SEE HOW FUCKIG RETARDED DOING THAT IS.
Yet for some reason the fact that you think that just because Batman's using made up technology that's portrayed in a way to make it look like advanced SWAT gear, now your somehow more mature than those losers who like Superman. Even worse DC has to nerf the entire universe so you assholes can feel better about yourselves. Batman is not just Gary Stu he is THE Gary Stu.

Also Indiana Jones character changes and also goes through a personal hell to attain wisdom. A very basic character arc that Rey doesn't go through.

She's more Mary Sue than the original Mary Sue

>just put in Clint Eastwood
>hurr durr examples

Meanwhile, Rey got into arguments with Finn, was damseled in the middle of the film, and couldn't finish off an injured man.

Who's being "perfect" here again?

>no argument

I accept your concession.

>rey accomplishes less than Luke
Have you watched the movie, or are you just meme'ing about what you've heard?

>his backstory is him doing more obnoxiously awesome things than Rey
Nah cunt, he trained and practiced. Even then, he gets beat up a lot (and I mean actually losing fights, not just getting hit with a lightsaber a little bit then fighting through it) and makes mistakes.

I totally agree, batman only worked in his heyday when would fight a couple mooks here or when he would try and solve a mystery. But now batman is so blown out of proportion that he's fighting a room full of 20+ people and fighting super heroes even today in a movie that's supposed to be considered "realistic".

Batman has literally become a chuck Norris level joke where his super power is "lol he's batman"

Clint Eastwood is an actor, not a character. And if you can't see why people call Rey a Mary Sue you're just being dishonest. This thread is aids.

Because liberals are convinced that women need to be portrayed as powerful, in order to stop being weak.
>Implying women are powerless

But if you're asking me to "explain" while blindly accepting your implied interpretation of the premise that
>ALL females are X
>ALL males are Y
Then no.

>Clint Eastwood is an actor, not a character

Taking things literally and not having the comon sense to read between the lines is a sign of autism.

No one said anything about realism you sperglord.

>Rey actually accomplished less than Luke due to her inexperience and having to fight Vader Lite (really the rough equivalent of Bobba Fett with a lightsaber).

Remove the help Luke gets from other characters and he died 20 times during the first movie.

Do the same for Rey and nothing changes. She is completely self sufficient

Not giving specific examples is a sign of a weak argument. Do you know how fucking huge Clint Eastwood's filmography is?

That's kind of the point to the topic, Mary Sues are unrealistic.

>Luke singlehandedly destroyed the Death Star
>rescued princess
>saved galaxy
>hurr Luke is more realistic

>Rey gets kidnapped
>can't kill an injured man
>her friends destroy the Starkiller Base
>muh mary sue

How retarded are you?

>Nah cunt, he trained and practiced.

His training with the lightsaber was not used in the first film, you absolute retard.

No, they're not entertaining.

>Rey gets kidnapped and she's the one made into a Damsel in Distress.

Rey then easily escapes with no help. Easily outclassing the villain at his own game.

>Not giving specific examples is a sign of a weak argument

Not knowing what Clint Eastwood's most famous role is a sign of someone who has no idea what he's talking about.

You're autistic and ignorant.

For what it's worth, I think Moana perfectly captured "strong independent woman" without making her a Mary-Sue

She couldn't have succeeded alone, she constantly doubted herself and needed help/guidance from those around her.
Shame that film didn't do better really

Because they are not realistic

Mary Sues have a giant list of criteria defining them. Unrealistic superheroes = water is wet.

>can't even distinguish between talking about Batman and Luke Skywalker
Who's the retard now?

So you had issues with a female protagonist knowing how to save herself from being captured?

You'd think she'd be more realistic if she just waited for Finn there?

You also think she's a "master swordsman" after she failed to kill an injured man with her laser sword?

>Luke singlehandedly destroyed the Death Star
that didn't happen though
unless you want to redefine "singlehandedly"

>rescued princess
again, didn't do it by himself

>saved galaxy
not according to TFA

did you actually watch star wars?

Yes, a borderline sociopathic alcoholic. What's your point?

Who fucking cares about realism in film? In real life, the explosion of the Death Star wouldn't have been a fiery spectacle because there's no oxygen in space, meaning no fire. However, a big fiery explosion is more entertaining.
Mary Sue's aren't hated because they're not realistic, they're hated because they aren't entertaining.

Batman is a worse Gary Stu though. Are you sure you want me to further bolster my argument by using him as an example?

>female protaganists

Dropped.

Bitches can't even open a fucking peanut butter jar without a man around, let alone be some kind of "badass" in a world of men.

They're slower, weaker, and dumber than most dudes, and they look dumb as fuck pretending to be action heroes.

I don't think you understand what realistic means in this context. If you define what a character early on can do and through out the story they do those things the audience can except it, there fore it's realistic.

>that didn't happen though
If he wasn't there to shoot down the Death Star, would it have been destroyed?

>again, didn't do it by himself
The same could be said of the Starkiller Base and Rey failing to kill an injured emo kid with a laser sword.

>not according to TFA
He saved the galaxy around that period. I didn't say he permanently saved the galaxy forever and ever.

Are you really this autistic to not catch context clues?

See

Women can't even compete with 15 year old boys, let alone grown men.

Any decent high school boys JV wrestler could take any "pro" female fighter, like Rousey, and make her his bitch.

Women just can't compete, and they look dumb as fuck on TV and film pretending they can.

>What is a gary stu

>>"Fuck it, I'm the Mighty Whitey protagonist"
Just because you say something it does not mean it's true.
Here is Batman's backstory tone in under a minute:
youtube.com/watch?v=InUj9BT8KCc
As you can see, he usually got his ass handed to him by life pretty hard, from the death of his parents to the League Of Shadows, periods where he developed himself both physically and mentally. Throught his stories after those periods, he still usually loses fights(where he actually gets his ass beat, unlike Mary Sue who will backstep for a second and then come back and win the encounter)

>Mary Sues are female so any hint of competency means they're unrealistic

Your misogyny is showing.

Case in point.

That's called internal consistency, it's not the same thing as realism. Fucking kids and your limited vocabulary.

ITT, people who don't know what a Mary Sue is.

Sarah Connor, Ripley, Dana Scully, etc were awesome protagonists and they weren't Mary Sues.

Sure, let's go with Nolan's movies because there's no way you've delved further into the character (not that the comics and shit are relevant to this board anyway)
>trains hard
>has flaws pointed out to him constantly by Alfred
>the people of Gotham largely hate him after the events of Dark Knight
>gets absolutely destroyed by Bane in a one on one fight
>struggles to save Gotham without help

yes

>Rey is an expert is everything and always succeeds
>Luke gets his ass handed to him and even needs to be saved in the final movie of his trilogy

>was damseled
She wasn't. The whole point of the whole sequence was that she was able to break free on her own.

What in the actual fuck. You're the one bringing gender into this.