The champions league has great matches but the same teams win every year. europeans seem to like it this way

the champions league has great matches but the same teams win every year. europeans seem to like it this way.

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>wanting teams without history to win
maybe if they're actually underdogs like Leicester, otherwise fuck it

as opposed to what? you don't have relegation or any meaningful multi-country competition

you mean without history of winning? so what? none of the players were around then and none of us were either. unless you're a fan of one of these teams that usually win, why do you care?

i'm not saying american competitions are better. but at least we don't have this idea that because the yankees used to win a lot 100 years ago that means they should win every year in the 2010s

looking at the list of copa lib winners. you have 10 different winners in the last 10 years and from 4 different countries.
i don't hear people in south america complaining that the most historic winners aren't winning every year. seems to be a european thing.

that's literally all we want. seeing great matches and great football

and the Libertadores sucks, so what's you're point?

this isn't like America where clubs tank to get the best players

a club having history of success means they did things right and have a process, not that they got lucky

i don't think the talent level in the copa lib is as high as the cl. but the competition as a whole is more exciting when all these different teams have a legitimate chance of winning the title. thats my point.

nobody gives a shit about what you think.
stop making threads about our sport, mutt

It's called pedigree, some teams just feel like they belong at this level

Look at how relaxed Juve were in everything they did, and how rushed Spurs looked, same with Real and PSG last night

I'm used to /bundes/. Is Buyern already champion? Or do we have to wait one or two weeks still?

This is all so boring. None of these teams has any character or something that makes them just remotely interesting. Sure, Real and Barca may play nice football and the English teams may buy everything they can, but they're all the same

What about if the winner of the Champions League is no longer guaranteed a spot back? the prestige and big prize money, imo, should be enough. I dunno, somethin ive thought about lately after reading a comment here about how clubs practically neglect their own league because if they win the CL, they come back regardless of league position

Also, personal peeve of mine, no longer allow 3rd place group clubs to enter the Europa League, they had their chance and they blew it.

I have never been more ashamed to be an American. I share the same country with fucking retards like you.

everything will be alright my friend

clubs (or franchises, really) do that here, which is a shame. but like i said, i'm not saying european football leagues should be more like american sports. you can have competitive leagues that don't follow the american model, which has it's own issues.

oh i get there is a talent and experience gap between spurs and juve. but the best players will leave spurs and the cycle will repeat.

i agree. seems like most fans don't want it to change either, which is baffling to me.

not sure how that will change anything. the non-premier league teams in the last 16 of the champions league are basically guaranteed to come back anyway because they're so far ahead of their domestic leagues.

ahhhh shut up

bayern have been champions since october

>good teams continue to be good

N-NANI?!

nobody else wants to be good too?

You don't simply become good by willing it

3 ans 4 place of italy spain and germany should go to uefa instead of the grouo stage

It's actually a pretty large group but only 5 teams have it to do it since the 1960 over and over again. Some where pretty irrelevant for some time others stayed always up there.
Even if there're now new money clubs pouring in, nobody takes them serious or sees them as rivals. The eternal champions league is:
>Barcelona
>Madrid
>Bayern
and
>Juve/Inter/AC Milan (it's the usual italian club drama, but one of them is always up there)
>ManU
guaranteeing great matches and drama. Everyone else is pretty much irrelevant.

>i agree. seems like most fans don't want it to change either, which is baffling to me.
How would you change it?

literally what the fuck are you talking about, it's not like the yankees were and/or are good because people want them to be, are you retarded? meanwhile in american sports golden state and the patriots win every year, is that also because people like it that way? you think teams give a fuck which way people like it when their only goal is to win a championship? you make absolutely no sense and it's really ironic to talk about the same teams winning in europe considering the state of most of your leagues

Why is usa so commie?

Put Liverpool too

Well yeah
>ManU/Liverpool
it's one or the other.

And England? Then we could bring back the Cup Winners' Cup and actually put decent teams into it.

We don't like it, it's just a non-issue.

Yeah of course england too and Id love the cup winners cup to return
Get the group stage out and put it instead
Would be nice

I would vote for CL = Champion & Cup Winner
>if it's the same team there's a 2 leg play-off between the runner up from the league and cup
>second and third placed go to the UEFA Cup
>might think about a 4th place play-off for the 4th for the big leagues
>all cups have: No group stage, direct 2 leg eliminations
that's it.

CL is for the best of the best, giving spots to domestic cup winners who potentially got there by sheer luck undermines that.

At least they won something.
If the cup wouldn't be so irrelevant in most countries that most top teams play their C teams or even crash out on purpose it would get much more competitive.

Take for example the german cup, where everyone goes all-in because it means something.
It usually ends up being 2 of the top 4 clubs in the final or one of the top 4 taking it home almost uncontested after eliminating 1-2 of the other top 4 clubs in the first 2-3 rounds...

There's the random freak win but hey, they won the cup and had at least to go 1-2 of the absolute top teams so they deserve their spot.

the champions league is fucking shit

Real Madrid can barely refball past Fuenlabrada and they get eliminated from domestic cups and can't win a league to save their life. They have 2 in a decade.

But none of this matters. Ronaldo is the goat because he can tap it in past PSG or some other shitter non-LaLiga club. The format has made it so this team can just fucking sleep through 8 months a year and come in fresh for the end. Meanwhile you have Barcelona and Atletico playing their hearts out all year, with injuries everywhere, and now even Iniesta is dead. What a fucking joke the sport has become, thanks to this piece of shit tournament which has gotten too important that winning it means you were allowed to fuck up the rest of the year and it didn't matter.

Unironically best post ITT

Look at Arsenal in the FA Cup, won it 3 times in the last 4 years whilst scraping top 4 in the league. They are a top club but not elite, so I don't see why should that warrant a place in Europe's top competition.

I'd like to see the Cup Winners Cup back though.

That is because it's usually the only trophy they can win and nobody else gives a shit about it in the EPL.
It means nothing, it has no actual reward, it's just a cup like the summer champions cup friendly tournament...

I also like the idea of having the cup winners cup back or at least getting rid of over inflated cups

Why can't >we just admit that those big teams dominance is annoying? The only way a non-traditional top team to be relevant is by being bought by a towelhead billionaire or memeing it's way to the Championship (Leicester).
PL is the only league that this does not apply.

You complain about Arsenal being in the CL but not Celtic, Zenit and Basel?
*scratches head*

Scotland shouldn't have a team in the CL, their league is a joke that NOBODY respects and outside of Glasgow there is no point in a football team existing.

At least the likes Basel can at least win games in the CL.

Tell the epl to stop sucking each other off and maybe they could make it the semis for once this decade

it would be pretty difficult. but i would assume people much smarter and much more experience than me could come up with a plan that satisfies many people.

i look at it this way, the most important thing here is money. if you could level the playing field in terms of how much you're allowed to spend, then that would give other teams a fighting chance.

based on the data in this image, if you limited wage spend to say 100M and instituted some kind of tv rights revenue sharing so give teams that don't have 100M a chance to spend more, that might be a start. it's way more complicated than that, and probably wont be agreed to i know. i'm just throwing out ideas.

>if you could level the playing field in terms of how much you're allowed to spend, then that would give other teams a fighting chance
then the some of the big teams would end up being relegated and the whole league would suffer

>instituted some kind of tv rights revenue sharing
Already happens in pretty much every league but in Spain, Germany and Italy the top teams get a much bigger share than their counterparts in England.

you need to look at the history of american sports. the golden state warriors only recently became good. the patriots weren't good before 2000. the patriots have been going strong for a long while now, but that's not too common.
look at this way, there have been 10 different super bowl winning teams in the past 12 years. (only the patriots and giants have won more than once).
meanwhile, only 6 different teams have won the premier league in it's entire existence. only 25 years or so, but still that illustrates the difference of what i'm talking about.
if you want more, bayern, juventus and psg are all unstoppable in their respective domestic leagues with only la liga being a 2 team league.
please do your research.

They're not commies they like cartels, all american leagues are cartels where the owners watch each others back while keeping away all competition.

It's a form of cronyism just like Trump tariffs, usually tariffs are something commies do, but in America's case its a way for Trump to subsidize his friends keeping away competition.

>bayern, juventus and psg are all unstoppable in their respective domestic leagues
lol, that's only "true" of the last five years or so

>then the some of the big teams would end up being relegated

ah, now we're getting to the crux of the issue. as a neutral and outsider this doesn't concern me, i just want to see competition. i don't care if eibar are in the top division and real madrid get relegated. i like watching well played, hard fought football. badges mean nothing to me.

it's weird, in america, you're in the league as long as you have the money to spend on franchise rights, no matter how bad you are. you can even pick up and move to some other city if you don't like where you are.
and in europe, you're pretty much allowed to spend whatever you want so the top teams stay top, which people seem to like, based on what you just said about leagues suffering.
either way, kind of fucked up from my point of view. but what do i know, i'm just a poor american kid.

if you knew how painful relegation feels, you'd understand why leagues would suffer with top teams getting relegated more frequently

man united have 13 premier league titles. that's not out of 150 titles, thats out of 25 titles. thats ridiculous. and united continue to spend like crazy. obviously city are competitive in the prem now but only because they're spending crazy too.

real madrid have how many cl titles? 12? i lost count.

to me, give move teams a chance. leicester shouldn't have been a once in a lifetime thing. i don't want to wait another 30 years for another leicester.

this is absolutely correct.
you sound like you've read a book or two.

but why? if you're a real madrid fan you're still going to be a fan regardless if they're lifting champions league trophies or kicking around dusty pitches in the lower end of the 2nd division of spain, right?

what are all these teams who aren't giants playing for if there's no hope of them winning the thing? (no leicester).

yes but it matters that our teams spend what they make. if a team isn't allow to reap what they sow from expanding a stadium they won't ever expand it. you don't have this problem because you have franchises, not clubs.

>you're in the league as long as you have the money to spend on franchise rights
and that's the crux of USA's problem. you don't have merit. all of your franchises will do well no matter what. but since there is merit here (relegation) teams need some freedom (the money is theirs to spend)

That's the difference between a franchise and a town club that suddenly makes it.
The introduction of big money clubs is a recent thing for europe (last 15 years) before it was simply teams that got better over time till they hit the top. Even teams like Leverkusen started out as some workers doing good with next to no backing from the company beside providing them with a ground to play on.

Some got their shit together, others are still working like a local village amateur club beside playing in the top league.

why do you retards all say this over and over as if there's no incentive for american teams to win? they are all trying to be as good as possible, either in the short term or long term. you guys don't understand this, and yet you all have strong opinions about it. laughable

>i just want to see competition
an unregulated league drives competition. better teams fight for the title/promotion and lesser teams fight to stay up, success is relative to each individual club. fans of the 7th division champions are just as happy as premier league champions

you devalue history and achievement of a club by putting everyone on equal footing

so, isn't some of the power of relegation reduced since we all know theres a good chunk of teams that effectively cannot be relegated? thats not really exciting.

If you suck you get the first draft pick, so there's a incentive to put as much effort in for 2-3 years just to put together a team that could win it once and go back to irrelevance.
You get your games, ticket sales, merch, tv money and other shit anyway. Nobody cares.

much = less

>You get your games, ticket sales, merch, tv money and other shit anyway. Nobody cares.

this isn't true. sorry m8

>be shitty team in second tier league
>manage to perform well
>get promoted to first tier
>more revenue
>spend the money on managers, players and stadiums
And then they play the next season, and we see if they spent their money well. A team who manages to repeat this (successfully) for several years straight will go from small team to "actually have a shot at the title"
This is rare in leagues like LaLiga and Bundes, but happens all the time in more balanced leagues like the Brasileirão, Ligue 1, Argentina, etc.

Olympique Lyonnais had 0 ligue 1 titles until 2001. They spent their money on good players and managers and won every single championship from 2001 to 2008.

i'm from new york. i support some ny teams. when the baseball season starts i know the mets have a shot. not a great shot, but a shot nonetheless. we almost won it a few years ago. they'll have another run or two before i have grandkids. if i was from kansas city i'd feel the same way.
the mets can't get relegated. but if they were bad enough, they should be. give someone else a crack. but, at least they had a chance.

if i supported swansea or sociedad i'd know i didn't have a shot. doesn't sit right with my american sporting sensibilities i guess.

The NFL consist of WO teams with just about 1-2 team per conference that could actually win the SB even some division where you can make the Playoffs with a negative rating... To make it worse there might be only ONE team that might be able to contest the SB in the following year.
Anything else is the same story beside Luckswing.

You get together a a++ generation and you can win some, after that you're just irrelevant. See the Chicago Bulls or Detroit Red Wings...

>there's no incentive for american teams to win
I don't mean that. look, why would Liverpool have expanded their stadium if they wouldn't have received a bump in revenue? you guys have a closed shop and none of your franchises will ever fall to the point where they are outside of the closed shop. you're all some commies, peeing into the same toilet and drinking from the same trough. you will never allow each other to fail in terms of the business. that means it doesn't matter if you guys don't reap what you sew: you'll still remain on the inside pissing out. however, what our teams do matter in terms of the business side of things they need to be allowed the fruits of our own labour.

i'd make it as equal as possible but completely equal

daily reminder NFL players have shorter careers so the best team of 2018 will probably suck by 2021. Meanwhile Messi and CR7 have been playing at the highest level for over 10 years.
That's why a good soccer team can dominate the league for almost a decade.

there are good aspects to the european style system.
but it also leaves things to be desired is what i'm saying.
ultimately it comes down to what kind of leagues fans want to see. if fans didn't come, they'd have to change. and a lot of times what fans want is what they're used to, even if it means they're local team will never win in their lifetime, i get that.
its all well and good saying "work hard, you'll get there". but, lets be realistic. teams are spending hundreds of millions on players now. your scrappy, plucky group of go-getters with a young, hungry manager isn't going to cut it.

not all careers are as long as messi and ronaldo. and lets not pretend that real madrid and barcelona aren't absolutely stacked teams without those two.

>none of your franchises will ever fall to the point where they are outside of the closed shop

except this has happened. perhaps you should stop posting

dude wat?

But in USA all the teams are from "big cities" or big enough populated areas.
A team from a town in Idaho can't even dream of playing against a pro team, because doesn't have money enough to have a franchise.
Eibar has a population than less than 30k. Villareal 50K and played a CL semifinal.
Not ever a USA small town team will play even in the League with other pro teams.

>citing a publicly traded company as a counter example of the plastic and flawed american model

kind of a bummer, but college sports fill that local niche here. apples and oranges

???

bloomberg.com/quote/OLG:FP

>Olympique Lyonnais had 0 ligue 1 titles until 2001. They spent their money on good players and managers and won every single championship from 2001 to 2008.
they gutted the other teams by buying their best players for 7 years. Not any different from today

Smart use of money, that's how you win

Swansea were semi-pro division garbage like a decade ago, now they're in one of the top leagues in the world. Will never win it but it's far from pointless.

Oh, I see what you meant. Sorry, i should be sleeping already.

i'm not important enough to apologize to my man

oh god another amerifat making fun of the only game that the entire world plays. I hope you enjoy so many different american teams winning your """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""world""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" series

How about I post this instead?

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ITT: fundamental and intrinsic differences between underlying Euro values (history, pedigree, tradition, regimentation, order, hierarchy, reverence) and those of Americans (here-and-now, laissez-faire yes I'm aware of the irony of using a French word, self-determination, free-wheeling, chaos, dog-eat-dog).

Obviously the above is an oversimplification and you could point to examples where in fact it is the complete reverse (see the franchising vs. relegation comments), but on the large I think that is the pattern here.

It probably sounds like I'm trying to make the American P.O.V. sound superior, but I genuinely do not believe that one is better than the other; they're just two different MOs. Not sure it's worth trying to reconcile the two but it makes for interesting debate and I think you need a bit of both philosophies in the world.

not to make this Sup Forums or something but it's just interesting to observe

>I want equality of outcome in sports
mental illness

i'm not making fun. just making observations. in fact, i already said the champions league is entertaining but it's lacking a certain competitiveness than in my opinion could be better.
also, i'm not really criticizing the game, just the way the leagues are setup in europe. as you said, it's played all over the world in different ways.
so, i might be wrong. but you're definitely wrong.

lethal banter

not equality of outcome. more balanced in terms of chance.

I don't think he's calling for complete equality in outcomes; just the possibility for a different result IF (big IF) the upstart team is truly deserving. The other teams need to be given a chance, not a trophy.

>
>The Libertadores sucks

Literal soyboy

>The other teams need to be given a chance, not a trophy.
>more balanced in terms of chance.
in the summer there are 3 qualifying rounds between 100+ european teams and a playoff round, literally any shitter gets a chance.

>and the Libertadores sucks, so what's you're point?

>but not Celtic, Zenit and Basel?
It's almost like it's supposed to be a pan-European competition or something.

CONCACAF's got a champion's league too, you know...

>Muh parity

It should be an Americas Champions League for both NA and SA. Then the USA should follow our lead and let foreigners flood your league. You'll be the dominant force on the supercontinent in no time.

Subjugate those Sudacas, lad. Do it for your old man.

This would be the best system. The Champions League should allow champions only. Sevilla won the UEFA Cup once after qualifying 9th in the league, this is a disgrace. To make UEFA interesting again as it was in the 80s, you cannot allow it to become a consolation price for UCL group stage losers. You have to treat it as it used to be: if that year's Serie A had been won by Roma, you should expect Juve, Inter and AC Milan in the UEFA Cup. If the Spanish champion had been Real Madrid, you had to count on Barcelona and Atlético in your UEFA qualifiers. And so on.

Group A:
Man City
Viitorul Constanța
Maribor
Vardar

Groub B:
Barcelona
Slavia Prague
Legia Warsaw
Sheriff Tiraspol

e.t.c.
Nice "competition" you have there

If you dont like it, dont pay attention to it
/thread

it's unrealistic, under the current dynamic to expect anyone but the same 3-4 teams in the ucl semi finals every year.
it's getting stale.