I've been wondering when do you stop beeing a big club? Got any exampels? Can you go from Big to small and back to big?

I've been wondering when do you stop beeing a big club? Got any exampels? Can you go from Big to small and back to big?

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_England_by_competitive_honours_won
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leeds
manu
liverpool

I don't understand people's obsession with the 'size' of clubs desu

Forest
Villa
Leeds
Man United decline since 2013
Liverpool since 2009 but are now recovering
Arsenal since about 2014 (been on decline for about ten years but this is when their fall from a big club started)

If you look abroad obvious examples would be Lyon and Marseille, Inter and AC

So take leeds for example when and how did they become small

In the early 2000s, Leeds thought they'd be yearly Champions League contenders for some reason, so they took out huge loans that they'd pay back with the revenue & prize money they'd get from successful Champions League campaigns. But then they finished just short of the CL in consecutive seasons & were suddenly in debt & had to sell all their good players. They fell from the Premiership to League One in 4 seasons

They got to Champions League semis in 2001 and UEFA Cup Semis the year before, but their dumbass chairman took out loads of loans expecting greater success which didn't come. Decline came in 2002 they had to sell Rio Ferdinand to United (biggest rivals) due to financial problems and sold most of their good players. Relegated in 2004 to Championship, and by 2007 in League One.
They became small by having some of the worst owners ever pretty much, a collection of liars, criminals, and those with no money or sense. Just like the fanbase funnily enough, scum

Aight. Now take ManU did they become small the second Fergie left or was it a decline that started earlier. Are Manchester City now a big club but ManU isnt?

Big club is a purely subjective term that people change to suit the predicament of their club and their rivals. At best we can define it as a mixture of form, achievements, and notoriety/image.

Liverpool are a good case study because they straddle the line between big and not big. On the one hand, they've got an impressive history and were well regarded all the way until the 2010s. Liverpool fans will argue this alone means they continue to be a big club and that their current situation is meaingless. As long as they continue to float around the top 6 and ocassionally make title challenges/top 4 finishes they can continue to be regarded as a big club. Their history + subsequent global awareness/brand/heritage make up for poor league performances.

On the other hand, you can posit their forays into the top 4/current form in the UCL as a non-big club performing beyond their stature. Since 2009/2010 (their first real drop out of the top 4) in which they finished 7th, they have only finished above 2/8 seasons. Their average position was 5.75.6. On pure form they come in the lower of the top 10/barely top 6. On this form they are just challenging for Europa league spots and do not factor into the top 4. This is usually not the sort of thing one would regard as a "big club" form.

What people who call Liverpool a big club need to do is argue that Liverpool's brand, image, and heritage overcome their mediocrity in the league. That's the only way they can argue that Liverpool have not stopped being a big club. To answer your question OP, determining when a team stops being a big club depends on whether or not you regard Liverpool as a big club. If no, then you stop being a big club when you stop being a regular factor in the title race/champions league spots race. If Liverpool are still a big club for you, then its more to do with global perceptions of the stature and heritage of the club.

>Arsenal since about 2014 (been on decline for about ten years but this is when their fall from a big club started)
Arsenal were never a big club. Their European record is identical to West Ham's ffs.

This.

Its the same way people still say United is the best team in England even though they havent won the title in a few years. Their recent history is still carrying them

top post lad

What year did West Ham reach a Champions League final?

Man Utd are generally still regarded as a big club. Even on league performance they've only finished outside the top 4 3 times and won Europa last year (contributing to their poor league finish). They've also got the biggest global prescence out of all the English clubs. They'd need to take a serious hit to their global brand and have a few more years of poor quality league finishes to stop being a big club.

It wasn't the second Fergie left but they started to decline quickly afterwards. Between 2007 and 2013 United won 5 league titles, setting the record for the most won (20) and made 2 champions league finals, one of which they won so were easily the biggest club in England. only seething scousers and abus will deny thy this

They haven't challenged for the league or CL since and this is where your decline starts. They have the history but are no longer competing, they're just there to make up the numbers. Longer this goes on the more you become like Arsenal, but it will be quite a long time for this to happen

Brainlet opinion. Arguing anyone out of the "Big 4" were never big clubs is pure fanboyism.

Me neither. Also, the obsession with not wanting to be seen as a "selling club" or a "feeder club".

Literally every club in the world except for Barca and Madrid are seller's clubs.

>w-we lost a final
Do you win a trophy for putting the pressure on?

For fans its purely for pissing contest purposes. Being part of an elite club that you get to claim rivals are not. It helps that its such a meaningless term as discussed above because it means you can define it to include your club an exclude another claiming to be part of it.

From my outsider point of view Liverpool, United and Chelsea are the big clubs of England. Arsenal lacks 'elite' consistency and City may end up being a big club if they remain at the top for the years to come.

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Define "big club".

Clubs like Benfica, Lazio, Liverpool, Marseille, Valencia, big clubs in the past who lost their status

For me, it's Big Club FC.

Something a club without a single Champions League or even a Europa Cup have no business calling themselves. How can a club be big when it's a continental non entity?

>big club
>Lazio
Not even as big as Spurs

>being aba in year of our lord 2018
you're beyond the arse now yid, get the chip off your shoulder

Lol fuck them too. There's only one big club in London, and it's the one with a Champions League.

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So Leeds are a big club according to you (since you refuse to actually come up with a proper definition).

Malmo was a big club when they reached champions final against Liverpool
And they are a small club now that their biggest achievment was 40 years ago

Chelsea, liverpool and manchester United are big clubs in England. That's it. manchester city soon will be too.
After that we have arsenal, tottenham and everton in the tier below.

They're still have participated in Champions League games in recent years and are the most successful Swedish team in the Allsvenskan.

In the past 30 years Napoli have gone back and forth a few times from being an irrelevant joke (they were in the Serie C at one point after financial difficulties) and being one of the better clubs in Italy.

Try and apply your brain and actually define your parameters because they make no sense. In what world are Liverpool a big club but Man City and Arsenal are not? Your ridiculous argument needs to be defined. If its the fact that one group have won the UCL and the other haven't then why are Leeds also not? Your lsit implies league success is irrelevant.

You have to win the CL and be a power in the league.
Leeds has NEVER been a big club, neither has Arsenal. Hell, Atletico need to make sure they can win one before we can consider them anything as well.

quite the cringe post desu
your insecurity about arsenal is quite cute though, enjoy the europa league with london's other 'big' club next season

Juve haven't won a european title in over 22 years and are still a big club, foy

Actually, can someone even tell me WHY Leeds even gets the nod for being a big club? Can a bong explain to me what makes these guys so special?

Liverpool have 5 Champions Leagues 3 Europa cups and nearly 20 league titles.
Arsenal have a dozen league titles, 0 Champions Leagues, and 0 Europa Cups.
If you can't see the gulf you're being disingenuous. Like Arsenal Liverpool lack current success, but they blow them away so hard in historical success it's a joke.
Don't group yourself with City. City have won the league 3 times since you last did.
Arsenal are second tier in historical success, and second tier in current success.

This definition is useless then. Its too formalistic to explain the reality. It means you run into logic issues like Liverpool and Man Utd being regarded as big while Man City are not even though Man City have been more successful than them in recent times.

Why is this Chelsea customer assuming we are all Arsenal fans?
Also does anyone else find it funny that they plastics claim to be 'the biggest team in X' when they aren't even from there?

>win the CL
check
>power in the league
check

Man City isn't a big club. It's a strong club for the era, just like Atletico now, or Valencia/Arsenal back then, but they've yet to cement themselves. Most people regard Milan as the biggest Italian club, and they wipe Juve's ass in the league.

Won title and big northern city, also hooligan fans

These are the big clubs.
/thread

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pollmill.com/f/what-is-the-size-of-asuka-taira-s-nipple-n9a6yab

I'm not an Arsenal fan.

Liverpool have done one thing of note in nearly 30 years. Arsenal have had more modern success than them. Furthermore your poor attempt at a definition (which you still havent actually accomplished) completely discounts global perception. Its a useless way of understanding the clubs because it doesnt actually tell us anything about their modern stature.

one european cup win makes you a big team forever? steau bucharest, hamburg, porto, celtic, forest, einhoven, belgrade, feyenoord, are they all massive teams?

Again needlessly formalistic. The reality is that the average punter would regard Man City as one of the big clubs. Consistently in the title race with no signs of leaving, players are regarded as stars, world wide megabrand.

>zenit
>west ham
>leicester

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Big clubs produce world class players, simple as

they have a cup winner's cup

>they have a cup winner's cup

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Anyone that thinks Arsenal were never a big club even though they were one of the original "big 4" is just exposing themselves as Gen z scum

If you do that and maintain dominance over the league, yes, they're a big club. All those clubs play like shit and are pretty much shit, but they're still big clubs.

Big club isn't merely being good in the league. If you don't prove it on the continent, how are you big?

t. arsecuck

>"They haven't won anything in europe"
>"yes they have"
>"frog instead of argument"

t. seething invincibles era glory fan

MUH HISTORY!

t. ignoring literal english words and their meaning

Jesus you're retarded. Big club is not an objective determination. Perception is just as important as success. Celtic are not a bigger club than Man city. They might have a better heritage but thats different.

porto, bucharest, celtic, belgrade and feyenoord are all still successful in recent times but none of them are big clubs outside of their own country
dumb yank

It's a tinpot trophy. Even West ham have one. Do you want to talk about the Inter City Fairs Cup too?
Is your counter argument to the fact Arsenal's poor European record precludes them from being a big club the Cup Winners Cup? Oh dear. Congrats on being as continentally significant as West Ham.

>They were part of the big 4
>but they weren't big
Absolute retardation. Imagine shitposting on Sup Forums in school. Shouldn't you have GCSEs coming up?

>none of them are big clubs outside of their own country
And teams like Arsenal and Leeds are because...?

I'm a Chelsea fan, Arsecuck

it wasn't, you needed to win the cup to get in

Calm down you seething gen zer. The original argument had a literal mistake in it. No need to get triggered that someone pointed it out.

The PL is and was back then slightly more of a big deal than those other leagues you dense fuck.

Also nobody is saying Leeds are a big club. the point is that they WERE and you're a moron if you disagree.

Leeds has never been nor will they ever be a big club. There is nothing going for you besides some wins in the 70s and an Inter-Cities Fairs Cup.

I acknowledged your CWC in my very first comment in this thread. It's a tinpot trophy. The fact you're clinging to it so desperately show your level as a club. My Chelsea won it too. Twice. No one gives a shit. For us it's nothing, for you it's the sum total of your continental achievement as a club. Levels.

FOY

They were a big club. They were title challengers and present in Europe. Excluding Leeds and Arsenal is the most autistic shit I've ever seen.

what club do you support out of interest?

>Point out a mistake
>Responds with this rant
I've not defended Arsenal's european record. Calm the fuck down autist. Why are you so angry?

Don’t bring her into this.

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>Excluding Leeds
3 league titles
1 FA Cup
1 League Cup
2 Inter City Fairs Cups (summer tournament)
That's the sum total of Leeds. You want to call that a big club? Really?
>points out nothing
>projects

Tottenham and Everton are much bigger clubs than Leeds.

Big club=/=objective numbers. Perception in the football world is just as important. If you went back to the 90s and asked someone who they thought were "big clubs" the average punter would have said Leeds.

WERE

>Arsenal not big club
Classic mentally ill ABA

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>they were titles challengers and present in Europe
So are a shitload of teams in a shitload of leagues. Teams like Napoli and Atletico currently fit the bill.
Guess what? They aren't big clubs either, no matter how much their local supporters want to say they are.

I support Wednesday.

It's legal to have sex with someone who has no memory of Arsenal winning the title.

anyone saying teams like man united/liverpool arent big are having a laugh.

everyone can argue what makes a club big, but for me its attracting top players. they may not have won a major trophy recently but they still have some quality players. this is about money, success, being in the major tournaments and being a team someone wants to play for

if i had to name some european big clubs i would say in no order

city
united
liverpool
chelsea
spurs
arsenal
bayern
dortmund
psg
juve
milan
inter
roma
madrid
barca
atleti

and then there are some big ones but are a tier below this like napoli lazio sevilla ajax porto valencia etc etc

what OP is looking for is a team like leeds where they were in a CL semi final and selling out a 45k ground, and now are almost unheard of and unknown for a decade, kids growing up dont even know they used to be famous, and get half full stadiums. they have fully become a lower league team from being a european giant. parma is another good example, and i remember marseille and lyon being really good once upon a time. villareal maybe. Rangers maybe. im sure every league has one example.

i feel these teams have missed the globalisation and internet age boat as far as getting back to their level, with all the asian bangwagoners already taken by man united and barca etc. maybe a billionaire can force them there.

Leeds being a big club meme has got to stop

Not a single poster has implied Leeds are a big club. The point is they were. Keep up.

I would make it about:
>constant top 4 in the domestic league
>cl quarter or half final contender
>able to attract world class talent players and trainer...
>history of success

And you end up with a really small club of of teams
>Barca
>Bayern
>ManU
>Juve

And honorable mentions:
Liverpool, AC & Inter Milan,

TO BE A BIG CLUB YOU NEED

ATLEAST 5M TWITTER FOLLOWERS
HAVE SPENT ATLEAST 50M IN ONE TRANSFER WINDOW
TO HAVE A PLAYER WORTH OVER 50M
TO HAVE WON A CHAMPIONS LEAGUE
TO HAVE A GROUND BIGGER THAN 40K
TO REGULARLY QUALIFY FOR THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE
TO BE TOP 30 IN THE DELOETTE MONEY LEAGUE

Forgot
>Real
In the big guys club fuck me

>the point is they were
No, the point is they WEREN'T, yet you're the one who keeps hounding on that they were.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_England_by_competitive_honours_won

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This is probably the best definition though history of success I would say isn't as important as current form. I'd say the average person will see Man City as a bigger club right now and they satisfy all that criteria apart from the history.

Atlético is not a big club. Over the last four years it was unable to retain some of its established starters such as Diego Costa, Filipe Luis or Arda Turan and sold them. That the first two failed to meet their new club's expectations and were brought back should not cloud the fact that Atlético could not hold on to them when wealthier and more prestigious clubs came asking for their services. They also lost a promising young full back to rivals Real Madrid last summer. And the only good player that they have managed to attract was Griezmann, a player that at the age of twenty-three was still at a Spanish mid-table club and whose size and calibre had been formerly questioned by French scouts and youth academy managers. Oblak does not really count since he was more of a gamble than a solid bet to replace Courtois (another top notch player Atlético let get away).

Liverpool haven't been a big club since 1992 you delusional customer.

I'm an ardent ABliv but even I can accept they were a big club until around the turn of the decade.

if a team has customers theyre a big club. i dont think of liverpoos fans as customers because they win fuck all. its more like masochists

compared to madrid no, but madrid barca and psg can almost be put in their own tier. even liverpool/man united had to sell coutinho/c ronaldo/beckham/suarez to those two. even within big clubs there is a food chain

>spurs

Liverpool's owners actually literally regard them as customers.

They're a different tier of "big" than say Real or Man City but they're certainly up there.

If you have a problem with Spurs being included why not Roma too? They're identical.

Atleti and Valencia both went down and came back to win leagues and cups

I don’t put city there right now just because there’s still no international relevance or historical rivaleries yet.
>nobody says wow City vs Real, remember when...
But they’re getting there really fast.

back in the late 60s-early 70s they were the most notorious, talked about, successful, great facilities, big ground and fanbase, had many of the best players, probably second best manager and paid their players very well. Also the most hated.

>I support Wednesday.
Lads put it into perspective, no club is a big club to this guy