>backlash against Man of Steel/BvS is severe
>I actually kind of like both
>friends tell me "oh, Superman Returns was WAY better"
>watch it
>it's shit
>"well, you gotta watch Smallville, it's excellent, best Superman stuff I've ever seen"
>try watching it
>it's miserable
>people online claim Lois & Clark is actually really good
>watch it
>it's the worst fucking thing I've ever seen
>meanwhile, nobody ever talks about Superman the Animated Series or Max Fleischer cartoons
>They're the best fucking Superman media ever created outside of the comics
Is there any other franchise where the fans are this fucking wrong about the quality of its content? All the good/interesting stuff is ignored or outright hated, while the mediocre, pandering drivel is celebrated to no end.
Backlash against Man of Steel/BvS is severe
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>friends
>Is there any other franchise where people have opinions that don't conflict with mine?
fixed
Do you honestly think that Superman Returns, Smallville and Lois & Clark are any fucking good?
I feel like in the wake of Man of Steel, people had such a wicked case of the "not muh"s that they just started to erroneously claim that everything that had come before was somehow amazing and perfect simply because it wasn't Man of Steel. People praise the Donner movies, and I didn't mention those, because they are actually solid. They existed so close to the actual silver age that they don't seem anachronistic. They actually embrace the camp and don't do anything tongue-in-cheek like so many later Superman efforts did, which really only made them cringeworthy.
Haven't seen Lois and Clark, but Returns and Smallville are pretty good desu. They're both better than MoS, that movie was trash
The Max Fleischer cartoons are the best Superman media outside of the comics.
You are right about that.
Smallville was a nice curiosity when it began but turned out to be just an excuse to put attractive young people into a TV show that traded off the Superman mythos. It got really bad especially after Clark moved to Metropolis.
I have never watched any Lois and Clark.
Superman Returns fucking sucked, the literal who that played Superman was a terrible miscast, as was Kevin Spacey's Lex Luthor which was a carbon copy of Gene Hackman's portrayal (which was immeasurably superior).
You never mentioned The Adventures of Superman 1950's TV show starring George Reeves which is very comfy indeed.
>Do you honestly think that Superman Returns, Smallville and Lois & Clark are any fucking good?
Yes.
>well, you gotta watch Smallville
Star Wars
Original trilogy is shit and the prequels are enjoyable in a campy way, fans are insufferable pricks.
Get new friends, your old ones suck.
Can't argue with the numbers.
wrong
It's no secret that pretty much everyone has hated Superman for a very long time. They think he's lame. Nobody likes that Gary Stu boyscout shit except a few internet blowhards.
Star Wars
People wanted movies that were just like the originals just because the prequels, and now those new movies are garbage
MoS was insultingly bad. The other media is mediocre, but MoS was a dumpster fire.
>MoS was insultingly bad
Why do you think that?
>Hard mode: no memes
>Nightmare mode: no "not muh superbman"
Eh. I'd be more inclined to just say it's all shit. The prequels are pretty aggressively bad.
The thing with "being enjoyable in a campy way" is that the media has to have been self-aware of it. The prequels were not trying to be campy. They wanted to be taken seriously in every way. Now stuff like Batman Forever and Batman & Robin are CLEARLY trying to be camp, and are pretty entertaining when taking as such, but people just want to shit on them because of how silly they are.
But that doesn't make sense. Then why does everyone love all the garbage where he's a Gary Stu boyscout?
Nostalgia Critic is setting himself on fire all thanks to angry fans:
Protip: All the memes stem from legitimately incredibly stupid parts of that movie.
"Stop, my invincible son" stems from how pointless the father's "self-sacrifice" was.
"man of murder" stems from superman killing Zod, but more so from the fact that the characters are emotionally unaffected by the deaths of tens of thousands of people around them during the climax, with Superman literally making out with his girl atop their crushed bodies.
It's most grievous sin was being unbelievably boring. All characters were banal one dimensional cutouts. The Krypton scenes were laughably bad. Fight scenes consisted entirely of exploding buildings. It was chock full of retarded scenes, the most egregious being the rightly parodied "stop my immortal son." Whatshisname is a terrible looking Superman.
In terms of recent big budget movies, I'd rate it below civil discussion but above farce engorges. All three I consider unwatchable garbage.
I strongly disagree. I think MoS was beautiful. Whole idea of Superman got a new meaning. Movie has a strong message about hope, faith and humanism.
numbers!
>Then why does everyone love all the garbage where he's a Gary Stu boyscout?
They don't. Everyone thinks Superman sucks. This is common sense from being alive at some point within the last few decades.
>Whole idea of Superman got a new meaning
What did he mean by this?
I think people just vent on the prequels because they can't understand how the OT could be bad in any way, except ROTJ which is the only one allowed to be universally bashed for some reason but to them it's like a holy scripture that is made worsened by the whole MUH CHILDHOOD complex and praise they gave it when watching them.
>faith hope and humanism
First of all, I want you to define those words, which you clearly have zero idea the definition of
Second, I want you to point out how exactly Superman exemplifies those aspects.
This is bait though, anyway, but you can almost no longer tell.
>When BvS was your first superman experience
>except ROTJ
That's because we got ewoks due to budget cuts and incest due to George's bullshittery. It's rightfully rated below the othes, though dumb six year old me thought it was the best because of that sarlacc rescue scene.
Superman I and II are the best capeshit. Everything that has come after has been shit.
>Superman the Animated Series
Is mostly garbage, save a few good episodes.
>>people online claim Lois & Clark is actually really good
all i remember about this show is the teri hatcher cleavage shot during the intro. i was young.
Man of Steel started of pretty good but the entire last third was mostly just an extended action sequence that got tiring eventually and sacrificed the cerebral tone of the movie before.
Also, I'm just not feeling that not quite H.R. Giger style they portray Krypton with at all.
>>meanwhile, nobody ever talks about Superman the Animated Series or Max Fleischer cartoons
because you're not posting on co
>"Stop, my invincible son" stems from how pointless the father's "self-sacrifice" was.
This has been gone over many times. It's one of those things you have to look at from the point of view of the characters. They had no fucking idea what could or would happen. Clark didn't know if he was invincible yet. Pa didn't want to see his own son outed and made the target of the government, he knew he was too young to handle that. I think getting a different actor to play Clark in that scene would have sold it better. They used Cavill, but in reality he was supposed like 16 years old in that scene, based on the math. Not sure how it is with other kids, but I always highly regarded my father's words, even if ultimately they didn't seem to make sense or work out for the best. I trusted him to know more than I did, and that's what happened with Clark. Pa would have rather died than seen his son have his life ruined by being outed, and Clark listened to his father because he respected him. It has nothing to do with superpowers or anything. It has to do with a son respecting his father.
>"man of murder" stems from superman killing Zod
There is literally nothing wrong with this.
>more so from the fact that the characters are emotionally unaffected by the deaths of tens of thousands of people around them during the climax
Worse shit than this happens in the comics all the time. In Death of Superman, he fucking takes a time out from fighting while Doomsday is STILL smashing buildings and killing people, just so he can go talk to Lois. But because it's a comic, you're never forced to deal with the actual implications of it. Keep in mind Man of Steel is a young and emotionally volatile Superman, still. Also, when you experience massive tragedy, the human mind just kind of blocks it out. They weren't going to start lighting candles right then and there, you know. At that point, the thing Clark cared about most was Lois.
>You never mentioned The Adventures of Superman 1950's TV show starring George Reeves which is very comfy indeed.
My Man.
>son, don't save people. the world won't understand. they'll hate you. also, let me die.
Stupid sexy Cavill
Watching Lois and Clark RIGHT NOW for the first time
It's fantastic
I thought I'd hate Lex but he's actually perfect
>"Stop, my invincible son" stems from how pointless the father's "self-sacrifice" was.
But it wasn't pointless from his point of view. His philosophy, from beginning, was that Clark's abilities had to be kept secret for his safety. You may believe he was wrong to think so but his actions are consistent and logical according to his own values.
>"man of murder" stems from superman killing Zod, but more so from the fact that the characters are emotionally unaffected by the deaths of tens of thousands of people around them during the climax
Well he had to kill Zod, and it's not as if it was a decision lightly taken. There's always someone in these threads that says "He could have done X", but he tried doing a lot of things, none of them worked. The whole point of his character in these movies is that he's not the perfect boy scout from the comics who always makes the right decision, always knows what to do and always saves the day, he has superhuman abilities but he was raised among humans and has human shortcomings.
The emotional ramifications of traumatic experiences generally don't set in until well afterwards. At that point Clark was just relieved to have saved the entire damn world. Would you level the same criticism at the shawarma scene?
>The Krypton scenes were laughably bad.
>awesome technology
>genetics and shit
cool
>flying bug mounts
pic related
OP here. Not true, but even if it was, it's not an insult in any way. You're basically admitting that the reason people hate these movies is because their opinion is influenced by nostalgia. If it was truly a bad movie, then people watching it as their first Superman experience should also hate it.
For the record, I watched and enjoyed the first two Reeve movies, the Fleischer shorts, and the animated series, along with the current Cavill stuff. Everything else I've watched has been pretty awful.
>It's OK if you assume the characters are as retarded as I am
I recommend consuming more media and broadening your horizons so you are not entertained by the movie version of a children's clown.
Even on Sup Forums it's largely ignored in favor of Justice League and obviously Batman.
>friends tell me "oh, Superman Returns was WAY better"
>watch it
>it's shit
Piss off lad.
>Reasons reasons reasons
Yeah, and all of these complicated human reasons (which the viewer has to fill in for themselves unaided by the movie) completely undermine the "Superman as Christ" theme, which makes that theme into something that's ONLY asserted in the ham-fisted way, but not actually backed up by the story and characters.
not sure why you're replying to my post i'm arguing that MoS was shit and the krypton scenes were dumb
Lois & Clark is good, it it's a romantic sitcom that happens to be superman themed
It's bizarre how wrong the fans are, I agree. I can't think of anything to compare with it.
>having realistic concerns is retarded
Okay. You realize it's super easy for someone to watch the movie and say "well they should have just done this". The characters had none of the knowledge you do. You assume they knew Clark could live through a tornado. You assume the people of Smallville weren't already calling the feds about a superhuman who lifted a schoolbus. Hindsight is alway 20/20 user, but for a father who had already spent the past 15 years worrying about his son's future and wanting to make sure he was able to choose how to use his abilities, if at all, there was no clear cut answer.
I'm sorry the movie didn't spoonfeed you. It was pretty fucking apparent. I know that Sup Forums is the last place I should expect people to have a good understanding of personal relationships, but if you're unable of looking at these situations from a character's point of view, you're pretty retarded.
>Yeah, and all of these complicated human reasons (which the viewer has to fill in for themselves unaided by the movie) completely undermine the "Superman as Christ" theme
...how? How does the act of a father dying so that his child may live undermine the "Superman as Christ" theme?
> It has to do with a son respecting his father.
I love how nerds rub their big thighs together over themes like this when their fathers despise them and they hate them right back.
>Also, when you experience massive tragedy, the human mind just kind of blocks it out.
Nope.
>there are people who actually think Superman returns was good
Holy fucking moly. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. That movie was absolutely terrible, all around. It did nothing but try to float by on the nostalgia of the Donner flicks, right down to characters completely copying the performances of the originals. Is that what you fucking shallow children actually want? Copypastas of everything from when you were a kid? Jesus, no wonder movies are going to shit.
>Holy fucking moly. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
>>>/reddit/
>Muh spoonfeeding
Wow, worked yourself into a shoot there, huh? As if the Christ-allegories weren't spoon-fed. Idiot.
>...how? How does the act of a father dying so that his child may live undermine the "Superman as Christ" theme?
Because the sacrifice was pointless and the Christ-figure, Superman, had every opportunity to save his father, but made the WEAK choice not to.
You can make all the fanboy excuses you want about "oh but he couldn't have known xyz", but guess what, nancy? If you want to represent a character as a hero LET ALONE CHRISTLIKE, they can't be a craven coward who stands by while their father dies for no reason.
You got memed son, MoS and BvS literally saved the character from being a symbol to sell t-shirts (just like Wonder Woman is right now because BvS did no such favors for her). Superman Returns, as you well stated, is shit and all those tv shows were the CW of their time, fun to watch but bad.
Also beware of the shills, these guy think some empty parking building exploding means Superman=Hitler. Or they are paid to say the think so, at least
>Nope.
Ever read Studs Terkel's The Good War? Interviews with real WWII vets. They talk about how such a massive amount of carnage just becomes surreal and you become desensitized. You can watch some dude get fucking blown away and you just keep on moving because to actually have to process it would be mentally crippling at the time. It's just how like when people suffer a severe injury that should be intensely painful, they say they didn't actually feel anything. Too much input numbs your receptors. The human mind does what it has to to keep moving.
Now, was this actually what Snyder/Nolan were thinking? Probably not, but the thing is when the fate of the world is at stake, you can't stop to have a fucking funeral service for everyone that just died. He had very recently said goodbye to Lois because he wasn't sure he was ever going to see her again. She was the one person he cared about most right then, because she was the one person who had cared the most about him and not just treated him like a freak or a god. This is the real reason he prioritized Lois over the mass grave he was standing on. She was the one person in the past 10 years that had trusted him and valued him as a person, and he was glad she was alive.
>So obsessed with two shitty movies, he builds an elaborate scenario with imaginary straw man friends to clumsily try and fail to make an argument.
>Obsessive compulsive to the point of posting shit about those two shitty movies every day, all day
>Still can't get the glorious circlejerk he has envisioned in his mind
That is my design.
>characters can't have flaws!
Fuck off. He's not literally supposed to be Christ. To draw a comparison between two characters does not mean that EVERY fucking aspect of theirs has to be identical. Clark is seen as a Christ figure, but you know what? He didn't fucking wash anyone's feet, or turn water into wine, so what a fucking stupid mistake, Snyder!
Nothing about Clark not saving his father made him a craven coward. You only think that because you can't let go of your childish vision of Superman as a boring Gary Stu who always saves everyone and never had any flaws and always has a power for every situation.
>friends and people on the internet suggesting movies and TV to watch is "an elaborate scenario"
Kekkest of keks, faggot.
I like that you have to pretend that everyone who posts about liking MoS and BvS is the same person, because otherwise your fragile mind couldn't handle the notion that perhaps there are opinions other than your own, and yours might not be so infallible.
I like how you need to start petty arguments and shit-flinging on every one of the 12 threads you start a day about Zack Snyder's stoolies, mostly because the movies themselves don't warrant any discussion.
And you clearly have no friends, they would have gotten tired of your capeshit obsession long ago.
You'll never stop me, user. I've got 18 more threads ready to go at a moment's notice.
Just get back to the ovals.
The conceptual trolling it's better.
I guess It's better to have you posting bullshit here than shooting up schools or whatever.
>>friends tell me "oh, Superman Returns was WAY better"
>>watch it
>>it's shit
stopped reading right there
>"characters can't have flaws!"
Strawmanning doesn't save you from this BTFO, fanboy. It just lets me know that like every other discussion of this movie, you've reached the [AUTISTIC SCREECHING] phase.
>Nothing about Clark not saving his father made him a craven coward. You only think that because you can't let go of your childish vision of Superman
I'm not the one who turned him into a Christ allegory, then failed to follow through.
Why don't you ask Snyder why he thinks Christ has to be a coward? Is that a Jewish thing?
>he doesn't know about the best superman film
>Returns and Smallville are pretty good desu
hahahahahahahahahahaha
most people ranking it above MoS probably even haven't seen it. They're just hopping on the MoS hate bandwagon.
Nice meme.
I know RLM (and especially AIDSMoby) is a hated meme here, but I think he nailed it.
All modern capeshit follows the formula of 70s supes.
You don't like Superman. Thats okay but you should learn to be less of a twat about it.
>CW Superman is nice to people
>implying superman threatening batman is the same as superman threatening metallo
Do they pay you with Mavel comic books that don`t sell?
>it's a I don't have a valid argument episode
It's funny because pretty much any previous incarnation of Superman has done things as bad or worse than Cavill Superman has. But because at the end of the day, all those other shows are goofy, campy or tongue-in-cheek, it just gets swept under the carpet.
I watched all of Supergirl Season 1 just because Melissa Benoist is a qt of the highest order (and the show was largely passable, nothing special), but I'm interested to see season 2 and this "amazing" Superman that's so much better than Cavill. I feel like it's just a case of Brandon Routh syndrome all over again, where people will glorify anything on an extremely flimsy premise just because "NOT MUH".
Also, when was the last time anyone watched Superman Returns? People are angry that Cavill is always sad in the movies, but Brandon Routh is fucking a million times more mopey and has zero charisma.
He was threatening Luthor, not Batman. And besides, even if he was, Batman was painted as a psychotic vigilante, and he was consumed by vengeance. You're talking like this is the same Batman you watched on Fox Kids in 1992. Why can't people let go of old versions of characters? Accept something new for a change. It's fun.
Shirley walkers superman score was better than john williamses there is a breezyness and nobility to it unlike the williams peice which is a little too bombastic
>there is a breezyness and nobility to it unlike the williams peice which is a little too bombastic
Very much this. But that kind of talk will get you in trouble around here.
As much as I recognize the iconic status of the William's Superman theme, and I do like it, it's almost become a caricature of itself at this point. It really only works in the context of the movies it was written for. The fact that people want it to forever represent every incarnation of the character is a little silly. I've grown to love the Animated theme and the Man of Steel theme more.
That's much better. Thanks.
>any previous incarnation of Superman has done things as bad or worse than Cavill Superman has
It's not the individual actions per se (even Donner Superman killed Zod in the original version), but the whole take on the character where the troubles reside. Gritty and edgy works for some characters, but there's something about Superman's very nature that makes him opposite to all that. It rings wrong when you watch Man of Steel (though I can see why people who don't know Superman might enjoy that take on the character).
>Shirley walkers superman score was better than john williamses
My african-american brethren.
Williams' theme is amazing, desu, but yeah Walker's is the best.
That's fucking retarded.
That is the epitome of "NOT MUH". Comics don't work like that.
"Doomed planet. Desperate scientists. Last hope. Kindly couple."
That's the only essential of Superman's character. He can be a dick, he can have fun. He can lord over people or be humble.
He can talk down people about his way being the only right way. And he can also mope because he doesn't live up to his own socially-enforced ego.
He can be a saintly martyr or a selfish person who yearns for his own personal interests.
If you say "Superman is boring, he's just a good guy" then you're talking about your own image of a sky daddy. Not the comic book character. Read a comic.
>though I can see why people who don't know Superman might enjoy that take on the character
But I do know Superman. The first Superman I ever saw was the Christopher Reeve movie when I was like, 7. I loved the animated series and even the comics.
There is nothing gritty or edgy about Cavill's Superman. He lives in a more gritty world, so his actions take on different context and have more serious impact, but his characterization is still remarkably similar. He is far more downtrodden than previous versions were, he led a much less celebrated career. To me Superman is a guy who always does what's right, and Cavill does that. Just because they don't throw parades for him and love him unconditionally, and just because he doesn't fly up to the screen and wink at the audience before the credits, that doesn't make a difference.
>If you say "Superman is boring, he's just a good guy" then you're talking about your own image of a sky daddy. Not the comic book character. Read a comic.
90% of self-proclaimed "Superman fans" aren't actually familiar with him. They've just seen some of the movies and have a Superman sticker on the back window of their car.
>Makes a blanket accusation against everyone who disagrees with you
>"argument" is literally as valid as "everyone who says X is probably gay or something"
>Whines when he's dismissed
lol, what a dipshit.
Anybody have their own theory on how George Reeves died?